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[Traditional Enneagram] Quick view on relationships. What enneagram?

westrom

New member
Joined
Oct 8, 2015
Messages
38
I am highly attracted to people who are more lonely, insecure, weaker. I can't imagine myself being with someone who is better than me. I want to be the one who helps my friends, I don't want to be dependable on anyone at all. I want to help them to succeed, change, improve, become as good as me. Tho, one has become a bit better than me due to my help, and now I am quite half-sad, as I can't help/advice anymore...It's like I love feeling better than others?
 

JocktheMotie

Habitual Fi LineStepper
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Messages
8,491
Thank you
Yes, I also think I am image type. Why 2w3? I could add more, but not sure what to focus on? Any guidelines? :)

Not sure. I suppose we could see if you're really a 3w2 but from what you say the overarching desire is to help other people, while the social positioning aspect of yourself might be secondary to that goal.

Why do you want to be better? What does that do for you? Is it just because if you're not better then you can't see why you're needed?
 

westrom

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Oct 8, 2015
Messages
38
Not sure. I suppose we could see if you're really a 3w2 but from what you say the overarching desire is to help other people, while the social positioning aspect of yourself might be secondary to that goal.

Why do you want to be better? What does that do for you? Is it just because if you're not better then you can't see why you're needed?

I am not sure why I want to be better. But I can't even stand being controlled, like mom telling me to get the rubbish out, it always ends with a conflict. Or if let's say I was told to play with other kids, I would not do that, due to fear of hearing "so, having fun?, from that person. I would feel like that person is better than me, as he's in my desired position - knowing how to help others. "Feeling inferior is definitely my biggest fear. Also, I am success oriented, like I wouldn't dedicate my life being a doctor, so I can help people...I am more important than others.
I think I help others, so I can fill in the emptiness, by proving myself that I don't need help, not actually help them?
 

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
Joined
Jun 6, 2008
Messages
19,769
This sounds quite like a 2w3 or 3w2 thing.
However I do sense a little bit of 2w1, 8w7 and 6w7 in your logic.
 

westrom

New member
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Oct 8, 2015
Messages
38
This sounds quite like a 2w3 or 3w2 thing.
However I do sense a little bit of 2w1, 8w7 and 6w7 in your logic.

Hmm. Thanks for the reply. I will add a bit more, what I think is important.

I need to succeed, and I won't be able to do that without fitting in. I can fit in, but there are great limits for me. Mostly, I will refuse to, as it would make me like one of "them". I like dividing people into groups.

I remember when I became friends with withdawn guy, and he said I am not his best friend, I got very disappointed, I want to be the most important person in their life.
I fake some relationships lol, don't end them even though I see it's not going anywhere, because I see how that wooden person could possibly be useful later! Or again. I could help this wooden person. To prove my worth being higher.

I mean, if I say something, and they assume something about me, and it's not what I want, I would really try to show them who I am for real.
And like if I am about to tell that I study IT(Not computer stuff, but like "something")...Well, I'll talk for 5mins, explain why I am not who one would assume if I say only "I study IT".

http://i.imgur.com/3fRotsy.png
Avoid putting off things until you are “in the right mood.”
http://i.imgur.com/Icqqrgw.png
 

ceecee

Coolatta® Enjoyer
Joined
Apr 22, 2008
Messages
15,908
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
8w9
Hmm. Thanks for the reply. I will add a bit more, what I think is important.

I need to succeed, and I won't be able to do that without fitting in. I can fit in, but there are great limits for me. Mostly, I will refuse to, as it would make me like one of "them". I like dividing people into groups.

I remember when I became friends with withdawn guy, and he said I am not his best friend, I got very disappointed, I want to be the most important person in their life.
I fake some relationships lol, don't end them even though I see it's not going anywhere, because I see how that wooden person could possibly be useful later! Or again. I could help this wooden person. To prove my worth being higher.

I mean, if I say something, and they assume something about me, and it's not what I want, I would really try to show them who I am for real.
And like if I am about to tell that I study IT(Not computer stuff, but like "something")...Well, I'll talk for 5mins, explain why I am not who one would assume if I say only "I study IT".

http://i.imgur.com/3fRotsy.png
Avoid putting off things until you are “in the right mood.”
http://i.imgur.com/Icqqrgw.png

I'm going to assume you are very young and I can cut you a little slack but some of this is really bad. You won't be able to treat people like "them" or dividing people into groups or get pissed when someone doesn't give you their total attention and devotion simply because you think they should. When you "assume" you know people better than themselves and insert all your superior knowledge and wisdom in an attempt to "help" them....all of it will eventually drive people away.
 

westrom

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Joined
Oct 8, 2015
Messages
38
I'm going to assume you are very young and I can cut you a little slack but some of this is really bad. You won't be able to treat people like "them" or dividing people into groups or get pissed when someone doesn't give you their total attention and devotion simply because you think they should. When you "assume" you know people better than themselves and insert all your superior knowledge and wisdom in an attempt to "help" them....all of it will eventually drive people away.

I never blindly expect others to give me their total attention or devotion, just because I want that. lol.

So you are telling me I shouldn't care, and let everyone find their own way how to succeed? I can not do that. They probably can not do that on their own. That's a part of my motivation, to help others succeed.
Also, doing that is just a part of what I "do" with others. I enjoy doing that. If it drives them away - cool, they can be lazy, I won't stand seeing them upset or blaming everyone because they are not happy with their lazy life. Their choice, but like if I think they do something what's wrong, I'll try to convince them to change.
 

ceecee

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Joined
Apr 22, 2008
Messages
15,908
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
8w9
I never blindly expect others to give me their total attention or devotion, just because I want that. lol.

So you are telling me I shouldn't care, and let everyone find their own way how to succeed? I can not do that. They probably can not do that on their own. That's a part of my motivation, to help others succeed.
Also, doing that is just a part of what I "do" with others. I enjoy doing that. If it drives them away - cool, they can be lazy, I won't stand seeing them upset or blaming everyone because they are not happy with their lazy life. Their choice, but like if I think they do something what's wrong, I'll try to convince them to change.

Um, yes. I don't care what you "do". If it were me, I'd give you about 5 seconds to get your pushy little ass out of my sight. I'm willing to bet many people will feel the same way. If you "have" to help people, get into some kind of profession where you can. Otherwise, leave people the fuck alone unless they ask you for help.
 

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
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Apr 23, 2007
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14,037
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ISFP
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496
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sp/sx
[MENTION=26293]westrom[/MENTION]
Can you work towards treating other people 'exactly' the same way you would like to be treated? If you want others to admire you, then start by admiring other people, rather than seeing them as weak and in need of help. Even the outcast has admirable qualities you can learn from and respect.

Then it will not feel unpleasant when others help you because you won't be afraid they are seeing you as weak. You will feel stronger and be admired more if you approach other people by respecting and admiring exactly who they are - even before your help.
 

thoughtlost

Honeyed Water
Joined
May 20, 2013
Messages
745
Enneagram
N/A
[MENTION=26293]westrom[/MENTION]
Can you work towards treating other people 'exactly' the same way you would like to be treated? If you want others to admire you, then start by admiring other people, rather than seeing them as weak and in need of help. Even the outcast has admirable qualities you can learn from and respect.

Then it will not feel unpleasant when others help you because you won't be afraid they are seeing you as weak. You will feel stronger and be admired more if you approach other people by respecting and admiring exactly who they are - even before your help.

GOD-DAMMIT THANK YOU, [MENTION=14857]fia[/MENTION] !!! WHY DO YOU SAY EVERYTHING PERFECTLY! WHY!?!?

...*ahem* so true, though. I would be SO depressed if I had knew someone who wanted to be my friend ...but only because she/he sees me as weak/less than and only says "admirable" things about me she knows that's what weak people like. It sucks because the person doesn't really appreciate me for me. They don't actually admire/see the good in me. The see the bad qualities and say "I love you only because you are weak." That's not love. It's not helping the "weak" person be a better human ...something we should all strive for.

I only say this because this happened to me first hand. I want that person to burn. It's SO F**ING demeaning. I felt like absolute shit around this person. I am angry now, wow.
 

hjgbujhghg

I am
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Jun 6, 2013
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MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w3
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sx/so
I don't know why people say 2, I think what you say sounds very much like an enneagram 8. But honestly you can not guess someone's type based on so little information.
 

westrom

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Oct 8, 2015
Messages
38
Um, yes. I don't care what you "do". If it were me, I'd give you about 5 seconds to get your pushy little ass out of my sight. I'm willing to bet many people will feel the same way. If you "have" to help people, get into some kind of profession where you can. Otherwise, leave people the fuck alone unless they ask you for help.

Awesome. It's totally normal that some people would never get along. lol.

It's not that I have to help them, but I enjoy that. Also, you must be crazy if you think it's all I do with people I talk? lol. With few, who I know that don't need any help, I rarely criticize or try to help them or etc. I don't jump in, unless I think I need. I think someone got mad at me only once or twice? It doesn't mean the end of the relationship. lol. I can adapt then.

Never. Like medicine? lol. I help them, and then what? They happily leave the hospital, and I don't see them ever again. I invest into people.

I will leave them alone, if they are careless, and don't want anything. No potential. How can I help, if they don't want to improve?

[MENTION=26293]westrom[/MENTION]
Can you work towards treating other people 'exactly' the same way you would like to be treated? If you want others to admire you, then start by admiring other people, rather than seeing them as weak and in need of help. Even the outcast has admirable qualities you can learn from and respect.

Then it will not feel unpleasant when others help you because you won't be afraid they are seeing you as weak. You will feel stronger and be admired more if you approach other people by respecting and admiring exactly who they are - even before your help.

I admire few. And I seek to improve, to become better than them, maybe a bit adapt to their behavior in some way. I don't see outcast as empty space. I see it as either potential, that I could help them to achieve, or "nothing".

That's not entirely possible to me, even if I really wanted to. That's exactly what I do at first. I wouldn't approach the stranger and say hey, you should change that. I can't accept people not improving, if I see that they easily can. Like even looks for example. lol. Haircut is not hard to do, is it?

GOD-DAMMIT THANK YOU, [MENTION=14857]fia[/MENTION] !!! WHY DO YOU SAY EVERYTHING PERFECTLY! WHY!?!?

...*ahem* so true, though. I would be SO depressed if I had knew someone who wanted to be my friend ...but only because she/he sees me as weak/less than and only says "admirable" things about me she knows that's what weak people like. It sucks because the person doesn't really appreciate me for me. They don't actually admire/see the good in me. The see the bad qualities and say "I love you only because you are weak." That's not love. It's not helping the "weak" person be a better human ...something we should all strive for.

I only say this because this happened to me first hand. I want that person to burn. It's SO F**ING demeaning. I felt like absolute shit around this person. I am angry now, wow.

I am definitely not like that. lol. I see good in people, but I will still always try to help them to improve.

lol. It's like those who message you only when they need something from you. But worse.

I don't know why people say 2, I think what you say sounds very much like an enneagram 8. But honestly you can not guess someone's type based on so little information.

Not sure. lol.
 

thoughtlost

Honeyed Water
Joined
May 20, 2013
Messages
745
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N/A
I don't know why people say 2, I think what you say sounds very much like an enneagram 8. But honestly you can not guess someone's type based on so little information.

good point. it shouldn't be about typing the OP. But still, independent of type ...that behavior is rude and annoying!! *is still fuming*

I actually typed a 2 as an 8 for the first 3 - 4 months that I got to know the person. But eventually, it was very obvious that the human was a 2. It was strange because I would show the person the 8 description and she HATED it (so I thought the person was an 8), and when she read the two the person fell in love with how they tend to be seen (the positive ways ...she ignored the negatives about herself ...doesn't like it when people call her needy or wanting attention or envious).

I think 2s, when really unhealthy, are really really 8ish (if you believe in the growth arrows). 2s bad side is 8 (just like 4s don't enjoy being 2ish) and a 8's good side is 2 (just like 2s find peace when they become more 4ish) ...even this statement isn't black and white. I am sure the reverse is true for some cases. So 2s can enjoy being 8ish and hate being 4ish, but in the case of the person I knew... she drove everyone away from her, but never thought she had a strong part to play in them running away; she would always say "I know I am good friend. I actually care about people unlike them."

Ah, I am rambling. What I mean to say that what is in the OP applies to both 2s and 8s, despite what type the OP really is. And that the division between 2 and 8 isn't black and white sometimes.
 

ceecee

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Apr 22, 2008
Messages
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INTJ
Enneagram
8w9
It's not that I have to help them, but I enjoy that. Also, you must be crazy if you think it's all I do with people I talk? lol.

Where did I say all you do with people is talk? I think you need to work on better reading comprehension and, in case you missed it, I'm not the only person in this thread who thinks your methods suck. Why are you even asking us what your enneagram is? You profess to be an infallible font of wisdom - you figure it out.
 

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
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ISFP
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496
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sp/sx
[MENTION=26293]westrom[/MENTION]
You can decide if any of this applies to your situation, but I thought this would be worth sharing based on what I've read in your thread. Your thread struck me because when I was a young teenager, I used to befriend anyone who seemed lonely or outcast from the norm. It was mostly because I felt that way, and the "popular" kids required what felt like an audition. You had to pretend to behave similar to them and then maybe they would accept you. It wasn't an option for me and it felt like proof they didn't like or respect me, so what is the point of playing make believe? It hurt less to be completely alone in nature some place.

As a result I spent many hours talking to the outcast kids, and they did admire me and accepted me just the way I was. That was a complete relief to me, although I often didn't feel I could share all my thoughts and feelings because the only thing we had in common was loneliness and mutual respect. It was genuine acceptance, although not much mutual compatibility of interests beyond that. [edit: I also can't remember any person in that school I felt compatible interests with, so it was more about easing the pain of loneliness for everyone and learning how different people think. I went to a strictly religious boarding school on a farm with less than 100 students - strange and lonely circumstance for many.]

Changing people is a difficult question - even if it is just a haircut (as you mentioned) because how do we actually know that is helpful? If someone is part of nerd or geek culture, perhaps another person with funny hair is exactly the one who will love them? If they change, perhaps the connections with real friends and real love will never happen? What is an improvement? Sometimes we can culturally share assumptions to say it's obvious how people can improve, but if you look at the personal level and what that one individual needs in the world, it is more difficult to know what they need.

Carl Rogers is a humanist psychologist that had a very effective theory about helping people. He won a Nobel Peace Prize for his success in negotiating peace in violent scenarios, so there is proof that his ideas are effective. These are based on:
Unconditional positive regard for the person you are helping or supporting
Accurate empathy - which is best achieved by really listening to other people before assuming
Belief that each person is the master of their own life - that each person has all the answers they need if they are just given a safe space of acceptance where they can explore their thoughts.
 

thoughtlost

Honeyed Water
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I am definitely not like that. lol. I see good in people, but I will still always try to help them to improve.

lol. It's like those who message you only when they need something from you. But worse.


Oh and just to clarify, I don't know you so I can't say this is actually what you're doing.

But yes, it is much worse. I'd rather have someone openly use me such as "Hey, hang out after class because you're good at chemistry and once we're done with the class we won't talk as much". That way, I know where the relationship starts and ends. The person just wanted help on chemistry. And helping them learn chemistry saves me time when I have to study on my own (so it's win-win). I can handle it because I am understanding of that fact that people in general need help on chemistry because it is a hard subject and it has nothing to do with an actual deep relationship with me a person. It has nothing to do with wanting to be my friend even if might seem that way at first (eventually, I pick things up). People ask me for help in the sciences often, so that's why I say this.

But the behavior about wanting to be friends with someone because it would boost their self-esteem if they befriended weaker people (*ahem* me ....) I definitely see that as horrible. That person is saying that I am good at being weak and that in NO FUCKING WAY helps me feel better about myself. Only worse. ...that's when I should run away from the person because absolutely no good comes out of that. NONE. NADA. ZILCH. I really hope i never do that to anyone. I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy... except maybe I would to the person who did this too me =P jkjkjk that was rude.

Edit: And note --> helping someone on chemistry says NOTHING about the quality of the person or their ability to be a healthy/happy/beautiful human being. It's acknowledging that they ARE WILLINGLY coming to me for something of value to them (getting better at chemistry) and me saying that I have the ability to help them get what they value. The individual is beautifully autonomous.
 

westrom

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Joined
Oct 8, 2015
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Where did I say all you do with people is talk? I think you need to work on better reading comprehension and, in case you missed it, I'm not the only person in this thread who thinks your methods suck. Why are you even asking us what your enneagram is? You profess to be an infallible font of wisdom - you figure it out.

Because you see it as "terrible", so I assumed you thought so.
Oh yes, I definitely missed it. Thank you for telling me. Also, it's normal that one thinks others methods suck.
Where did I say I profess to be an infallible font of wisdom?

[MENTION=26293]westrom[/MENTION]
You can decide if any of this applies to your situation, but I thought this would be worth sharing based on what I've read in your thread. Your thread struck me because when I was a young teenager, I used to befriend anyone who seemed lonely or outcast from the norm. It was mostly because I felt that way, and the "popular" kids required what felt like an audition. You had to pretend to behave similar to them and then maybe they would accept you. It wasn't an option for me and it felt like proof they didn't like or respect me, so what is the point of playing make believe? It hurt less to be completely alone in nature some place.

As a result I spent many hours talking to the outcast kids, and they did admire me and accepted me just the way I was. That was a complete relief to me, although I often didn't feel I could share all my thoughts and feelings because the only thing we had in common was loneliness and mutual respect. It was genuine acceptance, although not much mutual compatibility of interests beyond that.

Changing people is a difficult question - even if it is just a haircut (as you mentioned) because how do we actually know that is helpful? If someone is part of nerd or geek culture, perhaps another person with funny hair is exactly the one who will love them? If they change, perhaps the connections with real friends and real love will never happen? What is an improvement? Sometimes we can culturally share assumptions to say it's obvious how people can improve, but if you look at the personal level and what that one individual needs in the world, it is more difficult to know what they need.

Carl Rogers is a humanist psychologist that had a very effective theory about helping people. He won a Nobel Peace Prize for his success in negotiating peace in violent scenarios, so there is proof that his ideas are effective. These are based on:
Unconditional positive regard for the person you are helping or supporting
Accurate empathy - which is best achieved by really listening to other people before assuming
Belief that each person is the master of their own life - that each person has all the answers they need if they are just given a safe space of acceptance where they can explore their thoughts.
Thank you.

I don't think I desperately tried to befriend anyone. Not at all. Yes, I think I definitely relate to this.

I am not sure whether I really care that others would accept me for who I am. It's their choice. lol. I always wanted to change, improve, not to be who I am at the specific moment.

You can never be 100% sure. If we only made the decisions that had 100% success probability, would we even do anything? That's exactly why steps like that have to be taken carefully, not randomly. I don't think one who needs help, actually knows what he wants. If he does nothing, he'll never find out.

I'll never be able to not assume, or think everyone can succeed alone. I am not his kind of person.


All,
I have to generalize a lot, talking about all this. In case you don't understand that.
 

_Radioactive_

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Oct 9, 2015
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23
I can definitely relate.

I always automatically befriended people who seemed inferior, I was always the queen of wallflowers who I wanted to make into something else, but I was actually looking for followers and an audience, it's so clear now. I rejected all the popular people who wanted to be friends with me, I think deep down I felt inferior and deep down I thought anyone better than me would see me as their little follower and I couldn't let that happen, I just can't stand things like that, I couldn't even let my parents own me like that (I think you mentioned something about that too). So I put myself above them by rejecting them.
I had one more popular friend(nice girl though) and I just couldn't deal with it, once we had a minor fight when I was 13 and my dad said something that suggested that I need her so therefore I should call her and I went crazy.
It's generally a pattern in my life, I hang out with people who need me and people who owe me something, it's...sad, although I usually tend to feel proud of it at the same time because "They need me"
When I was in fifth grade one friend told me "You were probably popular in elementary school"(lol popularity in elementary :rofl1: )
But that's another thing that's always been happening, always stuck in something I can't really describe, some kind of carrying around an image that's bigger than reality, but not just image, part of inwardness too, I FELT I should be but the world didn't always work the way my feelings did. So was I popular? I really have no idea, I guess (and hope :p) that people did talk about me at least.

And yeah, with men too, always someone who never even dreamed of having me, and that was all I needed to do, be with them. I could sometimes play with it sooo much, just to see how much crap they can take for the possibility of having sex with me one day, maybe.
But I could never be attracted to them because I'm ALWAYS actually attracted to unavailable people, or people who have the power to do to me what I do to others. But I reject them at the same time, it's a very odd combination.
My biggest dream when it comes to men was always someone 100% dedicated to ME, someone who's a complete loner and a misanthrope yet loves me, needs no one but me, but that doesn't really exist, does it?
But at the same time I really would be willing to do anything for some people, for example a while ago I talked to someone about S&M and submissive/dominant in relationship and the person was bothered by being submissive and I thought "I don't love the idea but I'd be anything as long as I'm the only one, better me than someone else" and it's true, I can even get jealous for such CRAZY things. Don't wanna give concrete examples ,but say, if someone I like gives attention to someone else I can get jealous even if it's negative because it's a sign they care about that person, even if it's in a negative way. That's why I like negative attention too, the line between love and hate is too blurry for me to not like it.


OP, can you relate?




Enneagram-wise, I don't think it's 8 in my case. It's definitely not 8.
Any thoughts?
 
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