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[Traditional Enneagram] 4w5 or 5w4?

Gizmo

New member
Joined
Apr 26, 2015
Messages
98
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
458
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I hate that I was so arrogantly sure about being a 4w5, but through more and more extensive reading/studying, as well as looking more into my behaviors and less upon my "inner world... I think I may actually be a 5w4 with a strong 4 wing. I indeed press heavily to express my individualaty in artistic ways, and I am drawn towards very aesthetic things such as camping, art museums, and vantage points... I also realise that my biggest pull to the artistic realm in general is also led by a longing to seek out new intellectual communities/opportunities. Not to mention one of the most used words in my verbal dictionary is "understand"... When it comes to being social... Well the best example there would be that of Mr. Darcy from pride and prejudice, especially in potentially romantically charged situations as well. When ever I do social, and engage in conversation I'm always trying to turn any surfaced conversation into a very deep, analytical, and intellectual one. It is usually short lived, as I have a knack for feeling overwhelmed before I decide to go incognito and slip away from the party unnoticed with out words or a good by to anyone except for maybe my closest friend around.

Anyways I'd appreciate thoughts, opinions, debates, questions, answers, and any and all of the sort.

Please, and thank you.
 

hjgbujhghg

I am
Joined
Jun 6, 2013
Messages
3,326
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w3
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
4s fear rejection as they believe there might be something wrong with them. This feeling of wrongness of oneself can be a source of melodrama and depression as well as food for narcissistic tendencies and feelings of one's uniqueness. They long for love, but feel like they don't deserve it, so on hand they can be romantic, dreamy and expressive and on the other hand they can be loners, lost in real life, seeking for attention and love running from it at the same time. In order to protect their ego they can act as victims, outcasts, people who don't belong anywhere. Putting a sort of pride to be able to protect yourself in your own weirdness is a part of being a 4. Feelings are very personal, intimate and intense and often lead to artistic expressions. The love for the aesthetics and the beauty is a part of seeking for strong emotional stimulations.

5s fear to be useless and they suffer from low self-esteem just as 4s. They fear they might not be good enough for the world to appreciate them and they seek the sort of ego justification in being well-educated, knowledgeable and intelligent. 5s are disconnected from their ego, while 4 are strongly connected to their ego (high awerness of how they are different from everyone else, how they feel, how they percieve...). Because of this low awerness of one's ego 5s feel insecure whenever they can't apply knowledge, whenever they are lost without a clue of rationality and logical analysis. They fear what they can't understand, explain or learn. They can be hard-workers using maximum of their knowledge to achieve great intellectual goals, their intellectual obsession can be so great, the external world stop to exist and they only feel the need to learn and research more.

5w4 doesn't feel its emotions so intensivly as 4w5. Actually whenever they feel an intense emotion they try to rationalize it, analyse it, categorize it.
Choose which one fits best for you.
 

Gizmo

New member
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Apr 26, 2015
Messages
98
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
458
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I pretty strongly connect to both fears, but I'm most insecure (one could say) when I'm without understanding, or the proper means to understand. I'm pretty emotionally adept though, because I seek to understand them, and yet have a knack for ignoring emotions that I can't rationalize. I love efficient systemized hard labor lines of work, and yet I pursue my arts with just as much intensity, and in my work place I always have to have a unique way of standing out, and blending in at the same time... Everything I do has a very efficient touch of flare, but never to the sacrifice of efficiency... In fact I often strive to make efficiency the form of art, but every canvas requires a personal signature. I've been rejected many times in life, but I've always found my around it. So all in all even though I have alot of 4ish qualities... I believe that It is most important to be knowledgeable to survive. I always put logic in front of emotion, and when it comes to my "inner world" I'm think of new ideas more than anything, and in envisioning new ideas is typically when the emotion tends to step in... I'm just going to say 5w4... It seems a lot less depressive. And more suiting to my behavior patterns.
 

Entropic

New member
Joined
Aug 20, 2012
Messages
1,200
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
8w9
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
I pretty strongly connect to both fears, but I'm most insecure (one could say) when I'm without understanding, or the proper means to understand. I'm pretty emotionally adept though, because I seek to understand them, and yet have a knack for ignoring emotions that I can't rationalize. I love efficient systemized hard labor lines of work, and yet I pursue my arts with just as much intensity, and in my work place I always have to have a unique way of standing out, and blending in at the same time... Everything I do has a very efficient touch of flare, but never to the sacrifice of efficiency... In fact I often strive to make efficiency the form of art, but every canvas requires a personal signature. I've been rejected many times in life, but I've always found my around it. So all in all even though I have alot of 4ish qualities... I believe that It is most important to be knowledgeable to survive. I always put logic in front of emotion, and when it comes to my "inner world" I'm think of new ideas more than anything, and in envisioning new ideas is typically when the emotion tends to step in... I'm just going to say 5w4... It seems a lot less depressive. And more suiting to my behavior patterns.

To be honest, you are much too dramatic in your tone and presentation to be a 5. They are emotionally detached and cold. You are decidedly not. 4s and 5s have entirely different kinds of fears and it's wrong to say that a 5 seeks to be intellectual or such; that's not the 5 fear in itself. 5s fear being incompetent and incompetence in the sense of being unable to manage life's affairs and lead a life, knowing how to deal with obstacles presented to them and overcoming difficulties and problems. They experience themselves as small, thin, lithe, not strong enough. They overcompensate this by developing a keen mind, seeking to understand and observe from a detached point of view rather than tackling life head's on. They seek to be prepared via knowledge. Their logic is that if I can truly know or understand what something is, I know how to deal wit hit, rather than just choosing to deal with it. They may often thus become overly passive and uninvolved.

4s are very different. They think of themselves as emotionally sensitive, experience a strong sense of loss and longing. Kind in ways also see themselves as weak but more so in the sense of how emotionally affected they are but may play up this as a strength, to be in touch with human emotions more so than any other person, that they understand the realness and suffering of life more than others who are not as in touch with pain as they are would. Self-promoting to a degree, especially with a 3-wing, seek to play up their emotional dramas in their lives and repeat them in front of others as a form of entertainment. Self-absorbed. Extremely different dispositions.
 

Gizmo

New member
Joined
Apr 26, 2015
Messages
98
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
458
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
To be honest, you are much too dramatic in your tone and presentation to be a 5. They are emotionally detached and cold. You are decidedly not. 4s and 5s have entirely different kinds of fears and it's wrong to say that a 5 seeks to be intellectual or such; that's not the 5 fear in itself. 5s fear being incompetent and incompetence in the sense of being unable to manage life's affairs and lead a life, knowing how to deal with obstacles presented to them and overcoming difficulties and problems. They experience themselves as small, thin, lithe, not strong enough. They overcompensate this by developing a keen mind, seeking to understand and observe from a detached point of view rather than tackling life head's on. They seek to be prepared via knowledge. Their logic is that if I can truly know or understand what something is, I know how to deal wit hit, rather than just choosing to deal with it. They may often thus become overly passive and uninvolved.

4s are very different. They think of themselves as emotionally sensitive, experience a strong sense of loss and longing. Kind in ways also see themselves as weak but more so in the sense of how emotionally affected they are but may play up this as a strength, to be in touch with human emotions more so than any other person, that they understand the realness and suffering of life more than others who are not as in touch with pain as they are would. Self-promoting to a degree, especially with a 3-wing, seek to play up their emotional dramas in their lives and repeat them in front of others as a form of entertainment. Self-absorbed. Extremely different dispositions.

It's mostly just my style of "written composition." I actually test type 5 on similar minds, how ever I rate a balanced 90% on both type 5 and type 4, with 82% next in line for type 8. My health level also scores above average.
 

Entropic

New member
Joined
Aug 20, 2012
Messages
1,200
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
8w9
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
It's mostly just my style of "written composition." I actually test type 5 on similar minds, how ever I rate a balanced 90% on both type 5 and type 4, with 82% next in line for type 8. My health level also scores above average.

I also score 5 on almost every online test and I'm not a 5. I wouldn't use tests in order to determine your type because tests are very unreliable. The only way to know what enneagram you are for sure is to read up on the subject.

 

Entropic

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Continued:
 

Entropic

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Continued:


- - - Updated - - -

Continued:
 

Entropic

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What's the website? Its kind of difficult to read all of this from a mobile device.

Website? It's on shrib, where I copy pasted all the text because it has no character limit.
 

Gizmo

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Enneagram type 5w4 description. This is the most closely affiliated description of myself Iv stumbled across thus far being a 5w4, and the 4w5 is a close fit as well, but the blanket is not quite as snug.
 

four

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Joined
Apr 16, 2010
Messages
28
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4x3
My advice is to see how you feel when you are healthy vs. unhealthy. That can be so helpful. Fours when they are unhealthy tend to act in a way that could be stereotyped as "out of control" with emotions...they go to an "unhealthy two" place. They can be incredibly emotionally expressive even when they are trying to hide their emotions. People might deride them by saying they are too emotional or dramatic. When they're healthy they can be more objective and grounded in principles like one. Fives when they are unhealthy can be extremely detached and can give in to addictions, numbing, and even mania and inappropriate behavior. People might deride them by saying they are autistic, antisocial, or creepy. When healthy they are engaged and connected.. still quirky, but able to connect to others and have stimulating intellectual conversations.

Also, consider that fives are the most intense, stereotypical head type and fours are the most intense, stereotypical heart type. Fours will use emotional language and their main cognitive and emotional "hang up" will be that they identify with lack and melancholy and despair. Fives are heady and are one of the least overtly, obviously emotional types. They do not tend to use emotional language or expression (unless they've consciously fostered it). They can be very intense and withdrawn but not the same way as fours: they are intense and withdrawn because they are stuck in their heady, intellectual obsessions and search for knowledge and not (like fours) their emotional obsessions and search for identity. It really is quite a different energy. Think about famous fours like the musician Prince or Johnny Depp (both 4w5) and famous fives like Einstein or the "mad scientist" type. Both can be pretty intense but the focus of the intensity is not the same. Check out vids of the different types to see the different energy and study what the different core fears and motivations of each are...

EDIT: If you're really an INTJ you are much more likely to be a five.
 

Thor

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Jun 15, 2015
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8
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INFJ
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351
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sx
4w5: I'm more driven by shame and fighting shame and other's expectations on me to form my own identity.
5w4: I'm more driven by anxiety and fighting feelings of inferiority through learning and gathering information on various issues.
 
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