[Traditional Enneagram] Weaknesses of type 8: does integration represent true change?

[BlackDog]

I'm reasonably sure that I'm 8w7, and I'm wondering if integration to 2 (and disintegration to 5) represent true changes in character, or just adjustment to different outside conditions.

Here's my reasoning: When I see I can help someone because I am in a way better position than them, I usually want to. That's integration to two on a small scale, right?

When I am in a way worse position than someone, I 'dig in' and become a lot more thoughtful and pensive, figuring out ways to escape the situation or make peace with them even if it's humiliating, or whatever. And I try to study the situation and learn about the other person; it was in one of those phases that I got into typology, because I didn't understand enough about what other people wanted and how they thought. That's disintegration to 5 on a small scale, right?

So both of those two examples are situational; I might be 'twoish' with respect to one situation, and 'fivish' with respect to another, simultaneously.

Isn't it the same on a larger scale? If I was 'on top of the world', wouldn't I appear really twoish because I could afford to be magnanimous all the time?

And conversely, if I was 'caged' across every situation, like if I was a prisoner of war or something, wouldn't I subside into 'fivish disintegration' and study also across the board?

And then if the situation changed, so would my behavior.

Is it fair to say that integration and disintegration don't represent internal change so much as external change?

 

[small.wonder]

[MENTION=19765]BlackDog[/MENTION] You are somewhat correct, as disintegration is sometimes referred to as happening when we are "under stress". The internal difference of health is the ability to not behave from unhealthy motivations when feeling stressed. An average person will experience health just as you've described, experiencing both sides equally-- letting stress draw negative tendencies from them, and positive experiences draw good. Even unhealthy people respond well to being "in a better position" than others. It's responding (with awareness of our negative motivations) to stress in healthy ways that produces internal lifestyle change.

I've seen this for myself as a 4: while I still can have 2-ish thoughts under stress, it's very rare for me to actually cling to others, or love to get love back anymore-- I had a very dark season about five years ago though, where my behavior was very 2-like. Now, the healthy attributes of 1 are very strong in me (organization, justice seeking, truth speaking, etc.) because I understand how those 2 tendencies and motivations (even before I knew the Enneagram) were unhealthy and hurting me. I became healthier before finding the Enneagram though, so I never aimed to grow towards 1. It just happened when I recognized the destructive falsehood of my motivations.

We must overcome the lies programmed in our heads before we can truly seek health, and respond differently to stress. For you as an 8, the main lie is that you must be in control to survive.

 

[Pionart]

Wouldn't those changes apply to people of any type? e.g. you can help people more if you are in a good position yourself. Why does it only apply to type 8?

As I understand it, dis/integrative behaviour comes about when you are somewhat gripped by your unconscious. As per usual, there is an interplay of internal and external factors. Information from the environment is fed into mental functions which output changes in mental states leading to changes in behavioural tendencies.

 

[Entropic]

I'm reasonably sure that I'm 8w7, and I'm wondering if integration to 2 (and disintegration to 5) represent true changes in character, or just adjustment to different outside conditions.

Here's my reasoning: When I see I can help someone because I am in a way better position than them, I usually want to. That's integration to two on a small scale, right?

I suppose one could say that.

When I am in a way worse position than someone, I 'dig in' and become a lot more thoughtful and pensive, figuring out ways to escape the situation or make peace with them even if it's humiliating, or whatever. And I try to study the situation and learn about the other person; it was in one of those phases that I got into typology, because I didn't understand enough about what other people wanted and how they thought. That's disintegration to 5 on a small scale, right?

I suppose one could say, though I have never quite experienced it in this way. The way I experience my disintegration point is usually more during greater times of stress where I get very researcher-y over something so I know how to move forward to overcome a current obstacle I'm facing.

So both of those two examples are situational; I might be 'twoish' with respect to one situation, and 'fivish' with respect to another, simultaneously.

Which is why this is not true integration, no. Nor disintegration. It's just taking on the positive qualities of both connection points.

Isn't it the same on a larger scale? If I was 'on top of the world', wouldn't I appear really twoish because I could afford to be magnanimous all the time?

No. True integration occurs when you can experientially feeling within your body that you can let it go - you can let go of the constant struggle against reality and finally lay down the sword and be at peace with the world. When you feel like that, then you are integrating.

And conversely, if I was 'caged' across every situation, like if I was a prisoner of war or something, wouldn't I subside into 'fivish disintegration' and study also across the board?

And then if the situation changed, so would my behavior.

Is it fair to say that integration and disintegration don't represent internal change so much as external change?

No, because then you aren't seeing how deep the rabbit hole goes and how deep the motivation of the type goes within yourself. When you can let go of the anger over injustice and feel at peace and at one with the world, then you are integrating. It's a very different experience from just feeling good.