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[Traditional Enneagram] Trouble Ascertaining my Enneagram Type

Pionart

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My opinion is 5.

I often see INFJ as a 5-correlate. You seem to be more not-9 than not-5. You may see differences between yourself and other 5s due to their usage of T.

Now, if you're into compatibility type stuff: Type 8-Type 9 is probably more common but Type 8-Type 5 is a better match. Demographics female 8-male 9 is very common, but marriages are often adjacent along a line of integration.

Also, if you go for tritype, you would have 9 and 5 in your tritype.
 

pmj85

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Thanks, Legion.

I'm currently in conversation with a member of another forum who has done quite a lot of study into the enneagram; she maintains (and has for a good while now) that I'm a type six. I've remained open-minded to the possibility, but try as I might I just can't make it fit. I acknowledge that sometimes 'fear' has a hand in actively dissuading me to go forth and conquer, but it's a completely different fear than what a 6 allegedly experiences.

For example, reading up on the 6 (and also watching videos) reveals that they're constantly 'worried' about things, checking, double-checking, mistrusting things, etc... that isn't me in the slightest! I'm super-chill about such things; I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've 'worried' about something upcoming.

By and large, my fear comes from things like intrusion. I hate people getting in my space, I hate people checking up on me, I hate people ringing me (even my wife!), I don't necessarily want to go out into an unknown situation because of people and having to interact... inane chitchat makes me want to throw myself under a bus, for the love of shite.

I'm also acutely aware of my inability to retain the details of information I absorb, and I worry that not being able to regurgitate data on command makes me look really inept. I DO fear that. I don't claim to be intelligent, but if someone makes me feel unintelligent I'm liable to feel incensed. I definitely feel that being an INFJ has its drawbacks in this regard; there are some fantastically intelligent examples of the type, but I am not one - my Fe compels me to jump the gun and my Ti falls into line quite often all too late. Consequently I'm usually very timid and reserved when it comes to discussing intellectual matters - not because I don't know about the subject at hand, but because misquoting something or having to say "Sorry, I'm bad at retaining details!" for the nth time makes me feel like shit and genuinely terrifies me on some level.

Then again, it could be down to my terrible memory rather than my type having any impact.

I'm currently on a counselling course, and part of the process is learning to become self-aware. I had no idea how many feels I'd buried away. Long story short, I have quite a few... and uncovering them always starts with me being confused by some heavy / nebulous 'feeling' which, through analysis, eventually takes form.

I may be somewhat emotionally reactive when I'm pushed (my anger can sometimes be explosive - I guess I have Fe to thank for that) but internally I've always felt devoid of any real emotional content. I actively avoid being bombarded with emotions from the external - I find them awkward, unwanted and largely unnecessary (films, music, that sort of thing). I can speak freely about them in some ways, and I can help people deal with their own, but actually FEELING things myself is bloody hard work. I've also noticed my inclination to sit back, analyse how I 'feel' by connecting the dots in a situation and thinking "Huh, so THAT'S why I feel this way or that... ok, that now makes sense and I guess I'm sort of angry/disgruntled/insulted/whatever", or something to that effect. It's almost as though I have to first notice, then validate anything I '''feel''' before it's ok to feel it.

Does this make any sense?

In spite of all of this, I'm hugely empathetic and can really get into someone's shoes when in the role of a counsellor. I can ascertain how another person feels at the drop of a hat, yet for me? Nada! Plus, ethical concerns can be really bothersome for me. My initial reaction is to screw my face up and feel flabbergasted.

How bloody strange is that?!
 

Pionart

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6? :eek: what a twist

--

That's Fe for ya :p suppressing one's own emotions in favour of those of the group
 

pmj85

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suppressing one's own emotions in favour of those of the group

I'm not sure that's it - emotions are relatively unimportant in my life; I don't favour those of the group any more than my own. I'm very warm towards my daughter and wife, but those aside... :shrug:

I dunno. Experience tells me that INFJs are kinda aloof.

[EDIT] Heh, I'm a 'Member' now.

How very apt :p
 
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I would advise anyone wishing to know his/her type to assist some enneagramm courses.
Watching videos and taking tests is not enough to be sure. It can be interesting, but those methods are not concrete enough to confirm your
real fears, false core...etc.

We have a good school in Paris, you probably can assist to some training courses in your country.
You only need to work on your type within a group for some few week-ends. Not only ONCE !

I have been mistaken many times because of my strong wing. Trainers can also make mistakes !
The results can only give you a rather vague idea of your personality.
Probably SEVERAL trainers & SEVERAL tests are needed not to just be "some hot air merchant".
 

pmj85

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To be honest, I'm starting to think that the enneagram is an incredibly vague and somewhat lacking personality instrument. Apologies if that offends or is incorrect, but I much prefer working with the cognitive functions. I know they're separate layers of a person's being, but meh.

Maybe I'm just not ready to deal with my core yet ;)
 
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To be honest, I'm starting to think that the enneagram is an incredibly vague and somewhat lacking personality instrument. Apologies if that offends or is incorrect, but I much prefer working with the cognitive functions. I know they're separate layers of a person's being, but meh.

Maybe I'm just not ready to deal with my core yet ;)


I prefer dealing with functions now too that I discover MBTI more and more every day !

No apologies ! We are free to choose the way and the tools that help us to evolve, and to focus on what is/seems important to us ! :)
 
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The discovery of the false core is a shock (for our egos) and must be done in a secure place, when psychologically mature enough and ready to learn our most serious fears.

So better do it when one feels healthy enough to accept it and (later/possibly) work on it.
 

Chad of the OttomanEmpire

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I'm currently in conversation with a member of another forum who has done quite a lot of study into the enneagram; she maintains (and has for a good while now) that I'm a type six. I've remained open-minded to the possibility, but try as I might I just can't make it fit. I acknowledge that sometimes 'fear' has a hand in actively dissuading me to go forth and conquer, but it's a completely different fear than what a 6 allegedly experiences.
Hi pmj. This forum wouldn't be PersonalityCafe, would it?

For example, reading up on the 6 (and also watching videos) reveals that they're constantly 'worried' about things, checking, double-checking, mistrusting things, etc... that isn't me in the slightest! I'm super-chill about such things; I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've 'worried' about something upcoming.
6 fears are more about imagining "the worst that can possibly happen" and becoming convinced that this is the most likely outcome. This, of course, lends itself to being "worried", but don't rule out 6 just because you don't exhibit OCD-style behaviors.

Just a couple of questions, you said type 9 gave you some sort of inner reaction, like Nooooo....that's not me.... If you feel the outlook on life contradicts who you are at core, then it's not your type. Behaviors count less on these grounds.

I'm actually wondering about your thoughts on 1w9?
 

pmj85

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Hi pmj. This forum wouldn't be PersonalityCafe, would it?

It would! I'm slowly distancing myself from the place because being reprimanded for helping someone by way of truth is now a thing.


6 fears are more about imagining "the worst that can possibly happen" and becoming convinced that this is the most likely outcome. This, of course, lends itself to being "worried", but don't rule out 6 just because you don't exhibit OCD-style behaviors.

Yeah, see... that isn't even remotely me. I may be wary of such things when I'm driving at silly speeds down country roads (I 'see' ahead) - gogo inferior Se - but those rare instances aside I'm completely chill about everything. Very little ever bothers me; this can be a point of contention for other people, who sometimes give me shit because I'm not worried about something which I apparently should be.

Just a couple of questions, you said type 9 gave you some sort of inner reaction, like Nooooo....that's not me.... If you feel the outlook on life contradicts who you are at core, then it's not your type. Behaviors count less on these grounds.

I'm actually wondering about your thoughts on 1w9?

A type 1?

Again, I have to go back to the whole 'not giving a shit' thing. I'm typically a very relaxed person - the only things that tend to rile me are obligation to others and not getting enough 'me' time. I live with a massive extrovert (and my 7 month old daughter is bloody loud, too!) and sometimes I feel an intense need to get away from it all... but this lands us straight back in the lap of inferior Se / too much stimulation in the external.

Hmm.
 

Chad of the OttomanEmpire

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It would! I'm slowly distancing myself from the place because being reprimanded for helping someone by way of truth is now a thing.
A lot of people are leaving actually. Similar reasons, I guess. I've certainly got my share of war stories about the place.

I think I know which commenter you're talking about btw. Just to say, she was convinced I was a 6 too, when in reality, I'm clearly not. As soon as I did some proper reading that became obvious, as well as the fact that she grasps the theory far less than you'd think.

Just saying, you are wisely taking it with a grain of caution.


Yeah, see... that isn't even remotely me. I may be wary of such things when I'm driving at silly speeds down country roads (I 'see' ahead) - gogo inferior Se - but those rare instances aside I'm completely chill about everything. Very little ever bothers me; this can be a point of contention for other people, who sometimes give me shit because I'm not worried about something which I apparently should be.



A type 1?

Again, I have to go back to the whole 'not giving a shit' thing. I'm typically a very relaxed person - the only things that tend to rile me are obligation to others and not getting enough 'me' time. I live with a massive extrovert (and my 7 month old daughter is bloody loud, too!) and sometimes I feel an intense need to get away from it all... but this lands us straight back in the lap of inferior Se / too much stimulation in the external.

Hmm.

Well nothing you've said there necessarily contradicts 1w9. Actually, it mainly seems that you are an introvert, which you already identify with.

But give it some thought.

Tell me, why is it that you simply don't care? What's driving your resistance to caring? (If anything). What's it like for you? What DO you care about? Etc.

Also, in what ways do you not identify with 9?
 

pmj85

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I have to shoot out now (birthday meal!) but I'll respond later - thanks for your time; I really appreciate it :)
 

pmj85

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I ended up getting back really late and so I've only had time to do minimum research.

Type one doesn't seem at all like me. I can be perfectionistic, but very rarely and with extremely specific things. 9w1 would possibly make more sense than 1w9, as my overall attitude (and one which riles my OCD colleagues) is "Eh... it'll do".
 

Mal12345

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I ended up getting back really late and so I've only had time to do minimum research.

Type one doesn't seem at all like me. I can be perfectionistic, but very rarely and with extremely specific things. 9w1 would possibly make more sense than 1w9, as my overall attitude (and one which riles my OCD colleagues) is "Eh... it'll do".

1w9 and 9w1 correlations with INFJ are both listed as "common."
http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc466/xxNTJxx/MBTI-Enneagram-Correlation2.jpg

But more specifically, you are much more of a 9w1 as this sub-type is far more likely to engage in symbolic thinking that 9w8.

9w8 is more commonly associated with ISTP/ISFP - fun-loving, lusty types (remember that lust, not aggression, is an 8-wing sin).

9w1 is the less lusty, moral subtype of the type 9.
 

pmj85

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Apologies if this is somewhat lacking; I had to rush the end. If you would like any further insights / clarification, please let me know!
[MENTION=18576]Sanjuro[/MENTION]

Disclaimer

Aside from too much cake and caffeine, I’m in a relatively relaxed / normal state of mind. It’s perhaps worth bearing in mind that I no longer have any concept of sleep, what with being the father of a 7 month old girl who has more energy than a small star and all. Future ESTP, mark my words.

What is making me unsure of type?

Honestly? The legitimacy of the Enneagram as an instrument of typology.

People far more knowledgeable than myself on the subject profess it to be genuinely helpful, and I’m sure they do find it to be so on some level. I’m still waiting to be convinced, however; I’ve long since put all of my stock into JCF, as I can easily discern my functions operating within my own psyche. Jung makes a lot more sense to me, basically.

I understand that they (JCF / Enneagram) assess two different layers of personality (to a degree, I’d argue – JCF also deals with the subconscious) but I find the enneagram to be hugely ambiguous – especially when you introduce wings, tritypes and whatever else there is.

For what it’s worth around these parts, I’m an INFJ. A real, confirmed one. I mention this because there are a lot of mistyped people and I really do give a shit about accuracy.

Baseline mood

My baseline state of being is basically ‘off’. I am tranquil, calm and very much a typical dominant perceiver. I’m disconnected from my environment, adrift in my inner world. Comfortable, peaceful and completely relaxed. I quite often have epiphanies or feelings of transcendence whilst in this state, occasionally being overwhelmed by an inner sense of warmth or optimism towards the future – an optimism which has always been with me, powerful and utterly convincing.

I dislike interruption, and people disturbing my baseline are almost exclusively looked upon with contempt. Yeah, that’s harsh… but all I want to do is surf my inner world; the external is a constant invasion, unwanted and largely unimportant. I tend to my close relationships, offering unconditional love and caring. I’m a warm person, a good person – but I do not like being bothered.

Describe Yourself

Being me is often frustrating. Being an Ni dominant means that I have an impossibly rich inner-world, but for some god forsaken reason I am unable to express it. I occasionally write (but I always hate what I produce – perfection or GTFO), I can’t draw, I have no musical talent… it’s like having a wonderful gift that can never be shared. I’d love to be able to express my creativity, but I can’t.
I also struggle to memorise just about anything. My memory is so poor that I regularly forget what I just walked into a room for. I forget dates, times, everything. It’s as though I coast through life as an observer, encased in a bubble of disconnectedness. This is a huge hindrance.

Energy levels are another concern of mine. Don’t get me wrong, I have a lot of stamina – I can keep on going often long after others have fallen by the wayside, but my energy is very steady and doesn’t have many peaks. The hare vs the tortoise, sort of thing.

When younger, others told me that I was warm, approachable and overall a nice person – and that still rings true to a degree… but I also get told I can be aloof, arrogant and even callous. I don’t think I am, though. Not truly – I just have less patience than I used to.

As for what I think of myself… meh. Serial underachiever; too hard on myself; demand the impossible (perfection); often dissuaded by a deep-rooted fear of… something or other; indolence can be a thing… sometimes I feel that I really can’t cope with the world – especially when I have
But overall? I’m a fiercely optimistic guy who has a lot of ambition, and the older I get the clearer I become on what to achieve and how to get there; I’m becoming more and more action-oriented.

Issues in Life

Depression – I have tussled with it quite often, though I’m now largely over it. Only insane knackeredness sees me sliding back towards it. Although rather simple, I found that setting and consistently hitting targets seems to keep my head above water. Also, indulging in the odd activity which once upon a time would have bored me senseless, such as gardening or cleaning the cars.

Procrastination – holy shit have I procrastinated a lot in life. I’m far better than I used to be, but I still very easily fall victim to it. It’s a comfortable inertia, but I can’t maintain it as I used to – I have responsibilities these days, and not fulfilling them eventually makes me angry. It can be /so/ hard to get off my arse to do something, but when I do I usually feel much better about myself.

Qualities I don’t have but would like to develop

Artistic expression; logical thinking in the external sense; a quick wit; confidence; better self-control; more emotionally open (I’m quick to laugh and smile and I’m ENDLESSLY giving to my wife and daughter, but that aside I’m rather closed off).

Friends / relationships have drifted away because…

I didn’t want them in my life any more. The ‘INFJ doorslam’ is a very real thing. If someone isn’t genuine or at the least of any benefit to my progression, I get rid of them. I’m only interested in knowing people who have good hearts OR can help me out in life… so long as I can help them in return, too; it’s always a two-way avenue. I like give and take, and resent people who are selfish and only ever take.

Types I identify with the most

5

For - Fear of intrusion, *need* time alone, emotionally detached
Against – nowhere near as cerebral as I’d like to think I am ;p

7

For – Overwhelming optimism for the future; a desire for adventure and escapism; what I typed as the very first time I took an Enneagram test
Against – Quite a level-energy person; I never actually get to indulge my adventurous side; I’m not really all that drawn to novelties

9

For – Inertia; quite happy to go with the flow; get really pissed off if people try to assert any kind of authority over me in a demeaning fashion.

Against – Probably not as people-pleasing or conflict avoidant as the descriptions would have you believe. In fact, I can be quite confrontational if someone steps over the line or pushes my buttons; I’ll happily call someone out on being a dick if needs be.

Types least like me

2

In spite of training to be a counsellor, I’m really not all that oriented to helping people in general. I wish to help people who are going through what I have experienced (and worse) but this is equal parts of wishing to help and also finding the human mind both fascinating and well worthy of further study.

What I don’t do, however, is fall over myself in an attempt to help others. I’m kind and considerate, but I can be very inadvertently unaware of the needs of another. As I say, this is inadvertent – I’m not a cold person, but I’m usually unavailable owing to the fact that I’m in my own head.

3

I have ambition and I was image conscious when younger (did ok for myself, had ‘nice’ cars) and to this day I like to dress reasonably well, but I’m not someone who masks my true self. I am what I am, and if people don’t like that I really couldn’t give a shit.

4

God no. Just…

God. No.

6

Security oriented? Like authority? Structure?

See 4.

There may be some kind of fear at my core, but I’m uncertain.

8

As much as I’d like to be, I’m not at all domineering or ‘powerful’ as a presence. Apparently I’m a strong silent type.

Attitude to finding love

I found it. Prior to finding it, er…

No idea, actually. I just hoped I’d meet someone one day. It had to be someone from a faraway land with a different culture, though – I found people from my own turf boring. I guess there was a definite ‘fantasy’ element to finding her. Actually, yes – I wanted ‘the one’ to blow me away. My wife is Spanish and she blew me away, so that worked out nicely… y ahora hablo un poco espanol tambien. Joder! :)

My superego tells me…

If I recall correctly (and I may not - I have a terrible memory, remember) my Superego is responsible for chastising me… right? If so, it tells me that I should increase productivity by at least 500%, grab my balls and go out into the world; it tells me that if I put my mind to it, I can achieve great things.

In order, my ideals are:

- To be powerful, strong and unassailable (a force of nature! RAWR!)
- To be accomplished and successful (I wish to change the world for the betterment of mankind)
- To be knowledgeable (I often feel the need to be smart)
- To be loving and benevolent (love is where it’s all at)
- To be “okay”, having it together (I like to appear accomplished)
- To be devoted and loyal to a person or cause (I need a cause I care about)
- To be sensitive, original, unique and creative (meh)
- To be a loveable person (meh)
- To strive to become / behave like a good person (mega meh)

Felt senses

No lo sé y no comprende, lo siento.

Core fears, in order

- Failure (the thought of lying on my death bed having not accomplished my goals really shits me up)
- Boredom, grunt work, and being exposed as a charlatan (the fear of being derided for not being an expert on a subject; boring grunt work is terrifying :p)
- Abandoned / feeling lost

Mainly failure, and my inertia can further exacerbate this. I have tried multiple paths to success in life, but most have been unfulfilling and disappointing. Mainly academia – I find working within a strict framework and being dictated to by people who are often very unintelligent /ultimately/ demeaning.
 

Chad of the OttomanEmpire

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[MENTION=13310]pmj85[/MENTION]

OK, I've read this over. The short of it is that I think 9w8 is the correct assessment, and I think you don't see yourself as a pushover because you are 937 tritype.

If 3 and 7 are your next centers of intelligence, you're going to be similar to an id type--you'll go after what you want and not let others push you around. I think a strong 8-wing would add to this tendency. I can elaborate on why I think that but am short of time at present.

This is what they say for this tritype--does it have any resonance?
379, 739, 937 - The Ambassador: You like people and are outgoing, even if you are a bit shy. You are easygoing and seek comfort but strive for success and a feeling of personal importance. You are identified with what you do and achieve, but are soft, gentle, and kind. Your life mission is to find compassionate and effective ways to create change and bridge differences. A true ambassador of good will, you are happiest when you can help others become harmonious, build rapport, and develop their potential. Your blind spot is that you can be so focused on what is positive that you can miss the wisdom that comes from experiencing and understanding negative emotions and end up creating conflict by avoiding it. Your growing edge is to recognize that your need ot keep the peace at all costs and be what others want you to be to feel successful keeps you from knowing yourself. True self-awareness comes from listening to your higher self and being fully present in the moment.
 

pmj85

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Thanks, and apologies for the terrible formatting - I was doing it whilst at work, typing in a Word document for fear that it'd all be lost to the Timeout Monster. Obviously the copy and paste didn't go as smoothly as I would have liked.

[MENTION=13310]you don't see yourself as a pushover

I'd agree with that, though I'm also very easy going with things that -really- irritate others. For one completely random example, if I'm eating out and the food is shit I'll be upset, but I won't complain. For a start, the people in the kitchen may be having an off day (we all have those) and do I really want to add to that, or potentially catalyse one, over something as trivial as food?

This attitude really irks my wife - she'll march straight to whichever member of staff is closest and start demanding things... which in turn irks me. I just don't like giving people shit - what's the point?

you'll go after what you want and not let others push you around

I can be bull-headed, but I can also be easily dissuaded. For example, if I get quite passionate about something (a new avenue to pursue in life, perhaps) and someone talks me down and fills me with doubt, I adopt a "Well F you!" attitude and end up not bothering. I think this is more immaturity than anything else, though. It's also something I'm overcoming quite rapidly - my latest venture into counselling proves that. I tend to start things and never finish, which has led to other people viewing me as a lost cause. That kinda hurts, truth be told. Deep down I am ravenous for success and have genuine ambition; I want to benefit the world in some way. Leave my mark. I have far more ambition than most other people I know! It's just a shame I'm so crap at throwing myself into action.

This is what they say for this tritype--does it have any resonance?

I'll list the things which do:

- You like people and are outgoing, even if you are a bit shy : This was true of me before I worked within my current job role, which makes me seethe most of the time. I have definitely become far more introverted / people averse in adulthood.

- You are easygoing and seek comfort but strive for success and a feeling of personal importance. : Very true, but the personal importance is more about having the power to positively influence people's lives.

- Your life mission is to find compassionate and effective ways to create change and bridge differences. A true ambassador of good will, you are happiest when you can help others become harmonious, build rapport, and develop their potential : Oof. Bang on.

- Your blind spot is that you can be so focused on what is positive that you can miss the wisdom that comes from experiencing and understanding negative emotions and end up creating conflict by avoiding it - Same as above - bang on!

Not a bad fit, then :)
 

pmj85

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[MENTION=14498]Cloud of Thunder[/MENTION]

I'm not at all in touch with my emotions, and in fact am very easily overpowered by / annoyed with those of others.
 

Chad of the OttomanEmpire

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Thanks, and apologies for the terrible formatting - I was doing it whilst at work, typing in a Word document for fear that it'd all be lost to the Timeout Monster. Obviously the copy and paste didn't go as smoothly as I would have liked.
Thanks for the response.

I'd agree with that, though I'm also very easy going with things that -really- irritate others. For one completely random example, if I'm eating out and the food is shit I'll be upset, but I won't complain. For a start, the people in the kitchen may be having an off day (we all have those) and do I really want to add to that, or potentially catalyse one, over something as trivial as food?

This attitude really irks my wife - she'll march straight to whichever member of staff is closest and start demanding things... which in turn irks me. I just don't like giving people shit - what's the point?
This could be instinct related, too. I'm thinking sp-last would be more likely to simply ignore this stuff (which is how I currently type). I simply don't care about this stuff and would be unlikely to complain about it. Seems kind of embarrassing to get torqued out about it. Maybe you're sp-last too?


I can be bull-headed, but I can also be easily dissuaded. For example, if I get quite passionate about something (a new avenue to pursue in life, perhaps) and someone talks me down and fills me with doubt, I adopt a "Well F you!" attitude and end up not bothering. I think this is more immaturity than anything else, though. It's also something I'm overcoming quite rapidly - my latest venture into counselling proves that. I tend to start things and never finish, which has led to other people viewing me as a lost cause. That kinda hurts, truth be told. Deep down I am ravenous for success and have genuine ambition; I want to benefit the world in some way. Leave my mark. I have far more ambition than most other people I know! It's just a shame I'm so crap at throwing myself into action.
Sounds like a 9.


- You like people and are outgoing, even if you are a bit shy : This was true of me before I worked within my current job role, which makes me seethe most of the time. I have definitely become far more introverted / people averse in adulthood.

- You are easygoing and seek comfort but strive for success and a feeling of personal importance. : Very true, but the personal importance is more about having the power to positively influence people's lives.

- Your life mission is to find compassionate and effective ways to create change and bridge differences. A true ambassador of good will, you are happiest when you can help others become harmonious, build rapport, and develop their potential : Oof. Bang on.

- Your blind spot is that you can be so focused on what is positive that you can miss the wisdom that comes from experiencing and understanding negative emotions and end up creating conflict by avoiding it - Same as above - bang on!

Not a bad fit, then :)

Sounds like it really captures you! Glad I could help.
 
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