[Traditional Enneagram] holy shiz i really am a 9 :/

[Lady_X]

If you often find yourself unwittengly becoming a mediator or advice giver to multiple sides of a conflict in your family (or some other social group), you may be a 9. People will seek it out and expect it of you. Well, that's often been my experience, at least. Meaning that I often find myself in the center of that shit whether or not I wanted to be involved. It can be stressful and yet I think there is a part of me that really enjoys or at least feels obligated to be the impartial mediator. It can also backfire though when you don't take someone's side and they hold it against you for trying to remain neutral. You know, because sometimes people are immature pricks and just assume you're going to take their side in any conflict.

[MENTION=5418]Lady_X[/MENTION], other 9s, can anyone relate to this?

sure yeah, i do.

 

[Lady_X]

I don't wanna suggest a type for you or argue against one sis, but FWIW I do this too. I'll be kind of zoned out while everything is running smoothly up until someone asks "Chandler...doesn't that hurt?" and then it'll turn out that the pain in my leg I've been kind of dismissing is actually a poisonous bug bite haha.

I also have a habit of not knowing what will be a problem for other people so I try to be as accommodating as possible (and by that I mean sacrificial of my needs) until I'm aware of what my limits are.

you do? well hell.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Can you find / link to your video yet? That might help. Or make a new one?

 

[Starry]

and...ive mentioned...years ago even that i felt like my karmic lesson was to learn to cope with loss.

which is interesting now that i read that is the type 9 fear. i didn't even know that.

it is the thing that i feel most protective of on a deep level. loosing connections with others makes me eternally sad and constantly less than whole feeling.

^^I've been meaning to come back to this and say that I very much relate to the above <-which is not necessarily an effort to strip e9 from you. I do not hide from you the fact I believe you are currently confusing NF + sx + e7 for e9... and yet I have so much faith in your understanding of yourself and the world around you. If in the end you settle on e9...you're e9 (perhaps you already have idk.)

No, the message I have been wanting to put forth here was merely an acknowledgement of how challenging this all is...determining your e-type. e9s fear separation and loss...e7s deprivation and pain. What do you imagine though would cause an ENFP e7...an iNtuitive Feeler that is also a sx dom...to feel especially deprived and in pain? Well, I'm going with 'separation and loss' on this one...or at least that's what it is for me.

I remember reading a while back (I apologize I don't have a source)...and would be curious if any of the 9s even relate to this... that a way to tell the difference between e7 and e9 is... does the individual wish for things to evolve, move forward out into the future? Or does the individual wish for things to not change but rather stay the same? <-This is not to say that e9s are against improvement...but whereas the 7 desires that which is new and interesting... the 9 is wary of it. The primary fear is separation and they do not readily engage anything they feel may end up causing it. For 7 sx...merging is a starting point. From everything I've gathered on the subject 9s tend to view merging as an ending point.

 

[uumlau]

^^I've been meaning to come back to this and say that I very much relate to the above <-which is not necessarily an effort to strip e9 from you. I do not hide from you the fact I believe you are currently confusing NF + sx + e7 for e9... and yet I have so much faith in your understanding of yourself and the world around you. If in the end you settle on e9...you're e9 (perhaps you already have idk.)

Or it might be that Lady X is now dealing more with issues of anger (via e9) instead of issues of fear (e7).

No, the message I have been wanting to put forth here was merely an acknowledgement of how challenging this all is...determining your e-type. e9s fear separation and loss...e7s deprivation and pain. What do you imagine though would cause an ENFP e7...an iNtuitive Feeler that is also a sx dom...to feel especially deprived and in pain? Well, I'm going with 'separation and loss' on this one...or at least that's what it is for me.

e9 is definitely a fear of loss, whether of people or of situations or whatever one values. e9 learns that expressing anger very easily leads to loss, especially loss of other people in one's life.

I remember reading a while back (I apologize I don't have a source)...and would be curious if any of the 9s even relate to this... that a way to tell the difference between e7 and e9 is... does the individual wish for things to evolve, move forward out into the future? Or does the individual wish for things to not change but rather stay the same? <-This is not to say that e9s are against improvement...but whereas the 7 desires that which is new and interesting... the 9 is wary of it. The primary fear is separation and they do not readily engage anything they feel may end up causing it. For 7 sx...merging is a starting point. From everything I've gathered on the subject 9s tend to view merging as an ending point.

There is definitely a 9-ish fear of changing situations (more of a fear of changes which involve loss, of remove of the steady ground upon which one is standing), which would appear to be opposite of the 7's typical coping mechanism of seeking out new and interesting things. I don't think that it's quite that much an opposite, though. If that which is new doesn't involve the loss of that which one already has, there is no conflict between the two.

I think I'd agree that merging (to whatever extent) is more of an end point for 9s. It may be a bit difficult for me to say, as I'm an sp/so 9, so sx merging really doesn't factor in for me. What would a 9 sx do?

 

[Lady_X]

Yeah it would be fantastic to get some type 9 sx and some non 729 peeps up in here.

starry...that all makes sense but at the same time feels like everything has to be twisted and turned just so to make it fit...which feels off to me..

but yeah merging is the beginning for me...And i love and crave change....le sigh

 

[HongDou]

Haha yeah, its honestly hard to help through my own experience since I'm still torn between 729 and 728 myself!

 

[uumlau]

but yeah merging is the beginning for me...And i love and crave change....le sigh

The question is WHY you love and crave change. You are an Ne-dom, after all. My being Ni-dom doesn't make me e5 or e6.

 

[Kasper]

I remember reading a while back (I apologize I don't have a source)...and would be curious if any of the 9s even relate to this... that a way to tell the difference between e7 and e9 is... does the individual wish for things to evolve, move forward out into the future? Or does the individual wish for things to not change but rather stay the same? <-This is not to say that e9s are against improvement...but whereas the 7 desires that which is new and interesting... the 9 is wary of it.

The difference is focus on the future v living in the present.

As a Ne dom it is not accurate to say I want things to stay the same or that I resist new and interesting, that would be boring, routine is very hard for me to maintain for this reason, it's uninspired, I do not however live in the future at the expense of the moment, when something fantastic happens I can be 'in' it and feel satisfied with that moment. A 7 would be more inclined to quickly move to "what next", to me it has a 'chase the high' kind of vibe to it. The other element is as much as I adore new and 'adventure' I'm not quick to move to make things happen, I can float along until I hit resistance or opportunity pretty easily, because along with my love of change comes a love of comfort and so long as there is new mental material for my Ne to chew on I can be satisfied.

As a non Sx dom 9, merging with other's agendas is something that can happen (especially with groups) however it is not something I seek.


[MENTION=22356]The King Of Dreams[/MENTION] is an ENFP 9w1 Sx/So (972), he may be able to answer questions [MENTION=5418]Lady_X[/MENTION]

 

[Flâneuse]

I remember reading a while back (I apologize I don't have a source)...and would be curious if any of the 9s even relate to this... that a way to tell the difference between e7 and e9 is... does the individual wish for things to evolve, move forward out into the future? Or does the individual wish for things to not change but rather stay the same? <-This is not to say that e9s are against improvement...but whereas the 7 desires that which is new and interesting... the 9 is wary of it. The primary fear is separation and they do not readily engage anything they feel may end up causing it. For 7 sx...merging is a starting point. From everything I've gathered on the subject 9s tend to view merging as an ending point.

In most aspects of my life (other than relationships)**, I actually crave change but I feel like I don't have the energy to bring it about. In response to feeling bored or stifled, instead of actively pursuing change like a Seven I often make plans that I rarely carry out or spend an excessive amount of time seeking stimulation that doesn't require much action (daydreaming, listening to music, reading, etc.) There's a focus on changing inner scenery to avoid having to take action to change the outer scenery of my life.

I agree with what you said about merging being an ending point for 9s. I've never consciously thought about it this way until now, but I think my desire for change is really a desire to find something I value enough to stick with permanently (and to lose myself in, though I'm aware this isn't healthy). **If I feel merged to something (often a relationship), I don't want change...I feel like I could keep it forever and it's painful (sometimes on and off for years) when it comes to an end. Maybe Sevens have a more unconditional need for change and variety, and their feelings of connection are conditional on whether or not they find something stimulating and interesting? I'm picky about what/who I get attached to, but once I experience that rare sense of union/merging, I'll probably value that thing for a very long time, even when it's no longer new, exciting, or mentally stimulating. (I've felt emotionally attached to people who I actually found dry and simple.) I can see myself maintaining feelings of attachment in a relationship even when it's no longer beneficial for me, when there are no interesting dynamics and we're not learning anything from each other.

I'm 9w1 sp/sx rather than sx-dom, so this probably won't be that helpful for Lady_X's self-typing, but I felt the need to share it anyway.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Hmm I am not relating to this concept of merging as an end point for nine. It's certainly not something I strive for or desire. It's an almost inevitable happening when other people are around. Often times, I know what I want when there is no one else around. As soon as you add a person to the mix, it's like *poof* I lost the ability to think for myself. I am keenly aware of and constantly thinking of that other person and what they need or want. In fact, even though I don't always know what to do when no one else is around, I am always aware of what I could do or what I might like to do. When I had children (over 20 years ago now), it was of course no longer easy to balance that, and I think up until that point, I did not realize how much tension there could be when what others needed conflicted with the boundaries of one's stamina. Now, of course children need you and there are no options, you are going to get up in the middle of the night, you're going to take care of them even if you are ill, but somehow that opened my eyes to the level of merging? Because it ventured into the uncomfortable zone of "Hey, my needs are totally being obliterated here" rather than the easier to not-notice blending into other people's desires and wants.

So, merging is not an end-point, it's more of a foregone conclusion. It's not accompanied with the intense and craved-for feelings of sx-merging, it's more like a void, a black hole. It's the waking up, the being present to oneself in the here and now that's the destination for 9's, the liberation that your voice matters.

eta: That's not to say that in the merging, making the other person happy, you don't feel happy that they're happy. You do. It's just that, you released something to make that happen rather than blend it, and sometimes you aren't even aware of what you let go.

 

[Starry]

The question is WHY you love and crave change. You are an Ne-dom, after all. My being Ni-dom doesn't make me e5 or e6.

I believe I understand you're point here uumlau and so I should clarify...

(as you know) It's not uncommon for 7s to mistype as 9s and vice versa as they both share positive outlook, etc. while sloth/gluttony can quite often look and feel like the same 'sin.' And so I asked the 9s in this thread for feedback regarding one of those "how to tell the difference" tricks of the enneagram trade... (and really appreciate the 9s that took the time to respond as I find this all so interesting and know it's helpful to so many people wanting to understand 9 better.)

And now that I've had an opportunity to consider it in a more meaningful way - it makes sense. 7s are individualistic at their best (total narcissists at their worst) and in this way possess exactly what is needed to not merely weather change but enjoy it. To have a deep sense of gratitude for the opportunities change brings about when healthy...or to use change as a distraction from pain when unhealthy. Whether the 7s sense of self is accurate or inflated/deflated...it is *strong* and for the most part 'chaos resistant.'

^^If the opposite is true for the average-to-unhealthy 9 and the sense of self is being upheld/supplemented by an internal as well as external framework then no...I wouldn't be hot for change. I would most definitely walk around saying "don't anyone make any sudden moves - see this framework? let's all move rather slowly like a sloth." <-With Pe auxs constituting the majority of the e9 population obviously some sort of compromising/balancing is taking place between these two opposites - a simultaneous desire for newness and "sameness." [MENTION=20761]Saoirse[/MENTION] reports day-dreaming, fantasizing etc. about plans and ideas which interestingly is a defining feature/behavior of the e7 sx whom is most often seen described as a "glutton for ideas." [MENTION=4324]Kasper[/MENTION] whom I'm now extremely jealous of has achieved some sort of Zen-like state haha and my ex is an artist and does all kinds of crazy shit within the framework to keep Pe happy.

What I was referring to though is very specific to e7 sx and I'm pretty sure Lady X understood what I was saying in spite of what may have seemed like a more 'general' response regarding change from her. Like I said above 9s merge...all 9s regardless of variant merge... and that merging is for the most part considered an end point. A defining characteristic of...not the 7 so...not the 7 sp but specifically the 7 sx is once they merge with an intimate as a sx dom... regardless of the presence of Pe... there's a sense of being 'born anew' really. It's an absolute beginning. In no way does this experience feel like "*heavy sigh* now I can relax in the security of my comfortable e9 structure with my feet up on the coffee table in peaceful bliss." No way. For e7 sx it's like "let's get this amazing adventure underway!" You feel like you are overflowing with love and abundance and want to do all these beautiful things with the other... you wonder if there will be enough time. This was the 'love and crave change' I was wanting to remind Lady X of.

The difference is focus on the future v living in the present.

As a Ne dom it is not accurate to say I want things to stay the same or that I resist new and interesting, that would be boring, routine is very hard for me to maintain for this reason, it's uninspired, I do not however live in the future at the expense of the moment, when something fantastic happens I can be 'in' it and feel satisfied with that moment. A 7 would be more inclined to quickly move to "what next", to me it has a 'chase the high' kind of vibe to it. The other element is as much as I adore new and 'adventure' I'm not quick to move to make things happen, I can float along until I hit resistance or opportunity pretty easily, because along with my love of change comes a love of comfort and so long as there is new mental material for my Ne to chew on I can be satisfied.

See, I'm now having flashbacks to your own e9 thread. What makes the above e9 and not e5 integration/healthy e7? I'm seriously asking you because I find your explanations easier to understand for me so now you kinda have to answer haha *obligation merge* I would really appreciate it

As they [7s] experience the world more deeply, they find each moment fascinating, profound, and revelatory. The idea of boredom becomes absurd as they savor the incredible mysteries of existence, moment by moment.

[MENTION=5418]Lady_X[/MENTION] did you see this post (below) where I awesomely attached a 9 sx description?

the intimate seven

the intimate nine

Yeah it would be fantastic to get some type 9 sx and some non 729 peeps up in here.

starry...that all makes sense but at the same time feels like everything has to be twisted and turned just so to make it fit...which feels off to me..

but yeah merging is the beginning for me...And i love and crave change....le sigh

I've seen you say this so many times regarding different aspects of enneagram that I don't know how you mean it now. Do you feel 7 must get twisted in order to fit? I'd actually be interested in how you are slipping into the core issues of 9 so easily (if that is in fact what is occurring.)

fwiw I feel you are merely a very healthy 7 and this is why you struggle with a theory based primarily on pathology.

At their best, Sevens are appreciative, bountiful, thoughtful, accomplished, versatile, receptive, grateful, content, quiet, and passionate.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Like I said above 9s merge...all 9s regardless of variant merge... and that merging is for the most part considered an end point. ... In no way does this experience feel like "*heavy sigh* now I can relax in the security of my comfortable e9 structure with my feet up on the coffee table in peaceful bliss."

Again with the end point ...why are we saying it's an end point? It's a false one I guess? But I don't relate to it, and I am trying to remember if I ever felt that merging was an end-point?

The merging to me is like a constant see-saw of up and down - when I over-merge I have to un-merge, it's this continual attempt to find the center. Where merging balances with liberation, where I help you fully be you and I still am fully me too, helping me be fully me. I haven't felt that journey be complete or relaxing. It doesn't feel secure in that it feels like I am simultaneously in danger of being lost.

I can't ever remember feeling like, "Wow, here I am snug as a bug in this very safe feeling of being asleep to myself."

 

[Starry]

Again with the end point ...why are we saying it's an end point? It's a false one I guess? But I don't relate to it, and I am trying to remember if I ever felt that merging was an end-point?

The merging to me is like a constant see-saw of up and down - when I over-merge I have to un-merge, it's this continual attempt to find the center. Where merging balances with liberation, where I help you fully be you and I still am fully me too, helping me be fully me. I haven't felt that journey be complete or relaxing. It doesn't feel secure in that it feels like I am simultaneously in danger of being lost.

I can't ever remember feeling like, "Wow, here I am snug as a bug in this very safe feeling of being asleep to myself."

Well, shit, Peacebaby... I guess I missed the part where the good Lord Himself came down from the heavens above and commanded that all references to enneagram 9 must be something that you not only relate to...but approve of.

 

[Starry]

^^I'm in the process of packing and only had a few minutes to devote to running searches on e9 merging and a reference to a "destination" or "end point" and came up empty handed. Still, this is an actual description I have seen attached to e9 whether it is accepted as such...I'm cool either way.

Enneagram 9
Basic Fear: Of loss and separation.

Key Motivations: Want to create harmony in their environment, to avoid conflicts and tension, to preserve things as they are, to resist whatever would upset or disturb them.

Once merged...that is a state that is to be maintained unchanged. It is not to evolve from its original form. It is a final destination or an end/final state. Which is different from e7 sx that starts from a place of abundance...optimism generally prevents them from experiencing fears of loss and what occurrences are more likely to bring about loss of a loved one...like change...and so the e7 merges and says "let's evolve...let's experience...let's grow like weeds together." <-New beginning or starting point.

 

[EJCC]

Was talking to a 974 INFJ about this the other day -- she loves change and hates stagnation. I wonder if the thing that needs to be preserved, for 97x, is harmony -- so THAT has to stay the same -- but just about anything else could change without causing too much of a stir for them?

By contrast I have a 96x INFJ friend who is very quick to stagnate, and cling to stability at the expense of long-term happiness.

 

[Starry]

Was talking to a 974 INFJ about this the other day -- she loves change and hates stagnation. I wonder if the thing that needs to be preserved, for 97x, is harmony -- so THAT has to stay the same -- but just about anything else could change without causing too much of a stir for them?

By contrast I have a 96x INFJ friend who is very quick to stagnate, and cling to stability at the expense of long-term happiness.

Some 9s don't merge with intimates, groups, environments...but rather roles, concepts and images (easy rider always comes to mind.)

The other thing that comes to mind is how relative these terms are regarding fears that we're doing what we can to keep hidden from ourselves. Is change moving to Cairo, Egypt on a whim because you wanted to see the pyramids before you die? Or is avoiding stagnation...changing salad dressings one day or signing up for salsa lessons? It's always so difficult to assess these things from the individual's perspective.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Well, shit, Peacebaby... I guess I missed the part where the good Lord Himself came down from the heavens above and commanded that all references to enneagram 9 must be something that you not only relate to...but approve of.

Yes He has actually, so maybe you should get your shit together and get it right.

 

[PeaceBaby]

I'm going to add: I'm not proud of that post above, but I'm going to leave it there anyway. It felt like [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION] kicked me in the guts and I am tired of people knowing I am not likely going to shove their own shit back in their faces when they deliver it to me and afterward try to convince me it's not shit. Or that I am being sensitive. Your reply was hurtful and unkind. If my post kicked you in the guts back, I apologize.

My post above, saying that this concept of merging being the end-point just doesn't jive, and saying that out loud IS WHAT DOM Fi DOES. Fi is self-referential in that how we discern the accuracy of things is from the inside out, felt interiorly, by feeling. If something written or spoken does not resonate for whatever reason inside me, it's because either I am wrong or the information is wrong or the way we are interpreting the information is wrong, a hundred ways it could be wrong but something is wrong. It is how dom Fi figures the world out, IMHO. When I refer to ME in MY posts it is because the interior of me is the compass of my understanding. YET AGAIN it is misinterpreted as me, high and mighty, imagining myself the center of the universe, or something patently ridiculous like that.

SO, no, GOD himself did not tell me that the references to enneagram 9 should meet with my approval. But, He did give me a gut to tell me when something is wrong. I really don't care what aspect is wrong, I could be wrong, and although I do like to be right, I really don't care who or what is, because that's not the part I am invested in. I just need to know how it resonates for other people to suss that 'right or wrong' out. I will pursue the "truth" in the best way I know how to come to a better understanding of what at least is potentially more true. True truth cannot be known. I do not want to make any apology anymore for that opinionated place inside of me that has to express itself in disagreement to find agreement.

So, I am sorry if that's a burden on you to hear my words, but I would ask that you keep your exasperation politely in check and don't use me as a vessel to dump it into, and until you demonstrate more clarity in how you express your words, I simply don't think you know as much of what you are talking about when it comes to the interior of e9. I do agree however, that the likelihood of Lady X being e9 is low. It does feel right however to say it is in her tritype.

 

[Avocado]

I believe I understand you're point here uumlau and so I should clarify...

(as you know) It's not uncommon for 7s to mistype as 9s and vice versa as they both share positive outlook, etc. while sloth/gluttony can quite often look and feel like the same 'sin.' And so I asked the 9s in this thread for feedback regarding one of those "how to tell the difference" tricks of the enneagram trade... (and really appreciate the 9s that took the time to respond as I find this all so interesting and know it's helpful to so many people wanting to understand 9 better.)

And now that I've had an opportunity to consider it in a more meaningful way - it makes sense. 7s are individualistic at their best (total narcissists at their worst) and in this way possess exactly what is needed to not merely weather change but enjoy it. To have a deep sense of gratitude for the opportunities change brings about when healthy...or to use change as a distraction from pain when unhealthy. Whether the 7s sense of self is accurate or inflated/deflated...it is *strong* and for the most part 'chaos resistant.'

^^If the opposite is true for the average-to-unhealthy 9 and the sense of self is being upheld/supplemented by an internal as well as external framework then no...I wouldn't be hot for change. I would most definitely walk around saying "don't anyone make any sudden moves - see this framework? let's all move rather slowly like a sloth." <-With Pe auxs constituting the majority of the e9 population obviously some sort of compromising/balancing is taking place between these two opposites - a simultaneous desire for newness and "sameness." [MENTION=20761]Saoirse[/MENTION] reports day-dreaming, fantasizing etc. about plans and ideas which interestingly is a defining feature/behavior of the e7 sx whom is most often seen described as a "glutton for ideas." [MENTION=4324]Kasper[/MENTION] whom I'm now extremely jealous of has achieved some sort of Zen-like state haha and my ex is an artist and does all kinds of crazy shit within the framework to keep Pe happy.

What I was referring to though is very specific to e7 sx and I'm pretty sure Lady X understood what I was saying in spite of what may have seemed like a more 'general' response regarding change from her. Like I said above 9s merge...all 9s regardless of variant merge... and that merging is for the most part considered an end point. A defining characteristic of...not the 7 so...not the 7 sp but specifically the 7 sx is once they merge with an intimate as a sx dom... regardless of the presence of Pe... there's a sense of being 'born anew' really. It's an absolute beginning. In no way does this experience feel like "*heavy sigh* now I can relax in the security of my comfortable e9 structure with my feet up on the coffee table in peaceful bliss." No way. For e7 sx it's like "let's get this amazing adventure underway!" You feel like you are overflowing with love and abundance and want to do all these beautiful things with the other... you wonder if there will be enough time. This was the 'love and crave change' I was wanting to remind Lady X of.






See, I'm now having flashbacks to your own e9 thread. What makes the above e9 and not e5 integration/healthy e7? I'm seriously asking you because I find your explanations easier to understand for me so now you kinda have to answer haha *obligation merge* I would really appreciate it






[MENTION=5418]Lady_X[/MENTION] did you see this post (below) where I awesomely attached a 9 sx description?









I've seen you say this so many times regarding different aspects of enneagram that I don't know how you mean it now. Do you feel 7 must get twisted in order to fit? I'd actually be interested in how you are slipping into the core issues of 9 so easily (if that is in fact what is occurring.)

fwiw I feel you are merely a very healthy 7 and this is why you struggle with a theory based primarily on pathology.

I relate to really wanting to secure a good standing with my bosses, teachers, and family. I also love sharing whatever is going through my head, and will relate everyday experiences to fantastic ones.