[Traditional Enneagram] Enneagram 8 Hell

[Azure Flame]

I figured I would share what it means when enneagram literature says that 8's feel "helpless" deep inside.

The enneagram 8 Helplessness:

You are too scared to admit the truth. You live in denial of the hell that surrounds you. You pretend it isn't there and shrug it off anytime the pain enters your peripheral. The fact that there is nothing wrong with you, is also the problem. You don't fit in. There is something wrong with you. But you're going to deny this. You're going to pretend you are ok. Everytime you feel pain you will shrug it off until... it no longer exists... as well as every other emotion known to man.

This is a world that is hopeless. The more excited for life you are, the more you realize how alone you are. You keep trudging on and on, but there is no one with you anymore. You are alone. And when you turn around, you see people crying and in pain. The have given up on you. They have left you in the dust by not keeping up. They are the cause of your misery because they are weaker than you are. And it is your job to get them off of their asses and get in shape. There is no more good in the world. People, out of fear and misery, control, manipulate, harm, and attack other people. The world is evil. Altruism is dead. Fear takes hold of people's lives, and as a result of evil being so ever present, you are left to feel alone, because you do not suffer from these problems. The world has disappointed you. There is nothing left for you on earth, and in your anger, you will seek revenge. Hell, why not have fun killing everything in sight? Apparently there is something wrong with you for not having these problems.

This helplessness is the fear that you will be alone, until eventually you give up hope in humanity, and your only option left, is to get revenge on it by annihilating it. Imagine the video game "DOOM" which captured the E8 hell perfectly. As you enter hell, you fire your shotgun repeatedly. The more you fire, the more you are attacked in return. The more you are attacked, blood drips over your eyes until you can no longer see the world. You are blind with rage. The more you fire your shotgun, the angrier you get. The angrier you get, the more you fire the gun. The exponential the hatred. The exponential the pain as the world fights back, until either the world is destroyed, or you are dead, and everyone shrugs and goes back to their miserable routine.

Another good example was the movie "hobo with a shotgun."

Also, this song

 

[Aha]

This is what I feel when I am on a decline (one of my favorite songs)

 

[Azure Flame]

oo Ill check it out once I get wifi

 

[Chad of the OttomanEmpire]

No, actually 8 hell is really more about exploitation. You look around at the face of humanity, and all you perceive are thieves, bullies, jackasses, selfish spoiled pricks, miseable useless worms, and morons. You no longer care to distinguish this lot from more decent sorts; all deserve your punishment. You want to indescriminantly butcher "humanity", rip them limb from limb. Ribbon flesh.

All you perceive is exploitation upon more exploitation, and if you are powerless to do something, the rage only builds. You can't tell anyone about this because a) no one cares and b) you'd be labelled as a monster if you tried.

The rage is not blind. You own that rage and will unleash it in the most painful degrading way, for maximal damage and retribution.

Fear does not play a role. You've lost the capacity to feel fear, along with embarrassment, kindness, and every other human emotion. You sacrificed your humanity to survive in a brutally unfair world.

Your abandonment issues center around betrayal and how the guilty party must suffer. You are not saddened by your aloneness; indeed, all others need to be kept away. They're vile, degrading, and exploitative.You have no desire for support. Others are irrelevant, cardboard cutouts and caracatures. You aren't much concerned with what "other humans" are doing.

In truth, no one cares about you, and you care about no one else. You are in hell and that's where you belong. You're beyond redemption and the bounds of civilized society, and fuck, that is liberating. Fuck humanity.

You are a truth seeker, no matter how painful the truth. You now know that truth--the world is a horrible place, humanity is monstrous, and we all deserve death. You only hope to be the executioner. THAT is the only reality, and it enrages you because some secret, idealistic impulses and dreams of a fair world and benevolent humanity (that you can't even admit to having) have been horribly, horribly violated. But you never fear this reality, nor do you live in denial of it. Never.

Any sense of helplessness derives from your 9 side. You have the circumstances I laid out here, and there's NOTHING you can do about it. The world is too big, too cruel. You're stuck with your lot, no matter how unfair. All you can do is DEAL with it, and then you die.

This is 8 hell. I know it well.

 

[Azure Flame]

No, actually 8 hell is really more about...

We said different sides of the same thing. hence my reference to "hobo with a shotgun". I think I described the process of pain, whereas you described the thing that is being avoided.

I've always interpreted 8 helplesssness as simply being a sore thumb. I'm not a helpless person, I can take care of myself, but I am completely helpless in the sense that the world was no longer interesting to me and I felt there was nothing left to learn or keep me going forward. Seemed like the further forward I got in life, the more I was destroyed by everyone around me.

Aren't you like, a 5 or something? In the words of my 5 friend, "pay the government lots of monies, and then go to hell." lmao. That's the world he lives in.

 

[Azure Flame]

This is what I feel when I am on a decline (one of my favorite songs)

Interesting. I don't get it.

ENTP 8 sx/so huh? Haven't met one of those yet. Do you per chance identify with Bryan El's music? I suspect he is an ENTP 8 sx/so, his music very much exemplifies a sort of "search for innocence," as if he's searching the galaxy or something. Could just be another estp though, dunno. This video is almost exactly how it feels trying to find a spec of emotion within my cold nebulous soul sometimes. A couple hours of meditation to yield 5 minutes of color. BLAH!

 

[kyuuei]

No, actually 8 hell is really more about exploitation. You look around at the face of humanity, and all you perceive are thieves, bullies, jackasses, selfish spoiled pricks, miseable useless worms, and morons. You no longer care to distinguish this lot from more decent sorts; all deserve your punishment. You want to indescriminantly butcher "humanity", rip them limb from limb. Ribbon flesh.

Unfortunately this, 100%.

Fear does not play a role. You've lost the capacity to feel fear, along with embarrassment, kindness, and every other human emotion. You sacrificed your humanity to survive in a brutally unfair world.

Your abandonment issues center around betrayal and how the guilty party must suffer. You are not saddened by your aloneness; indeed, all others need to be kept away. They're vile, degrading, and exploitative.You have no desire for support. Others are irrelevant, cardboard cutouts and caracatures. You aren't much concerned with what "other humans" are doing.

In truth, no one cares about you, and you care about no one else. You are in hell and that's where you belong. You're beyond redemption and the bounds of civilized society, and fuck, that is liberating. Fuck humanity.

You only hope to be the executioner. THAT is the only reality, and it enrages you because some secret, idealistic impulses and dreams of a fair world and benevolent humanity (that you can't even admit to having) have been horribly, horribly violated. But you never fear this reality, nor do you live in denial of it. Never.

 

[Chad of the OttomanEmpire]

We said different sides of the same thing.

I didn't get the sense that we did, actually. You emphasized varying fears and feelings of wanting others in your life. I said those things weren't important to 8s.

If you want to use the shotgun metaphor, I'd say there's no guns involved. I'd say its more like armor. When I leave the house, that automatically pops into place. I don't steel myself, I simply enter combat mode. I certainly don't have any desire to go on a kill frenzy--it's more about bulldozing everyone out of the way, since they are objects to me. My rage is directed against violators; not some gun-induced power trip. If I want to make the masses suffer, I prefer to do so with sharp knives and bare hands in a cold, methodical, calculated manner.

To be honest, I didn't get the sense you were in this mindset. You just seemed "angry" and overwhelmed by the demands of others, which sought furious discharge.

As to the complaint about the world not being interesting, that seemed more 7 than 8. Jaded. Bored.

 

[Azure Flame]

I didn't get the sense that we did, actually. You emphasized varying fears and feelings of wanting others in your life. I said those things weren't important to 8s.

You didn't read what I wrote apparently.

You are alone. And when you turn around, you see people crying and in pain. The have given up on you. They have left you in the dust by not keeping up. They are the cause of your misery because they are weaker than you are. And it is your job to get them off of their asses and get in shape. There is no more good in the world. People, out of fear and misery, control, manipulate, harm, and attack other people. The world is evil. Altruism is dead.

As to the complaint about the world not being interesting, that seemed more 7 than 8. Jaded. Bored.

Also, the reason 8's go to extremes are due to feelings of inner death and they're trying to feel alive again. As an ESTP 8w7, my inner death comes from a diminishing ability to recieve stimulation as I get older. I am a walking suicide, a corpse that continues to wake up each day for reasons it doesn't understand, like a terminator walking through a radioactive wasteland and his skin is falling off but he doesn't care. And my desire to connect with others is my Sx. Read a book and do your homework before you start coming in here telling me I'm wrong. If you want me to provide sources I can do that for you.

You didn't answer my question. Aren't you a 5? If so, what is this "I Know all about it" crap?

 

[Chad of the OttomanEmpire]

You didn't read what I wrote apparently.

Sorry DJ, but I did. I read it about 10 times actually. I'd actually argue you didn't read my post.

What you quoted there sounds like disillusionment and bitterness, sure, but other humans aren't really a part of the focus. You don't actually perceive them and their pain.

There also isn't a perception that others as they are because of fear and misery. They are what they are because they are greedy, selfish, and animalistic.

 

[Chad of the OttomanEmpire]

You didn't read what I wrote apparently.





Also, the reason 8's go to extremes are due to feelings of inner death and they're trying to feel alive again. As an ESTP 8w7, my inner death comes from a diminishing ability to recieve stimulation as I get older. I am a walking suicide, a corpse that continues to wake up each day for reasons it doesn't understand. And my desire to connect with others is my Sx. Read a book and do your homework before you start coming in here telling me I'm wrong. If you want me to provide sources I can do that for you.

Come now, no need for defense. We are having an intellectual discussion, and I am sharing my perspective. Surely that's acceptable on a public message board.

Please do provide sources. I'm curious as to what you've been reading. I've read about 20 books, cover to cover, and I don't see your issues as type specific.

As to your question. Well I didn't realize it was a question at first. So sorry. No I do not claim to be a 5. Who told you I was?

 

[Azure Flame]

Come now, no need for defense. We are having an intellectual discussion, and I am sharing my perspective. Surely that's acceptable on a public message board.

Please do provide sources. I'm curious as to what you've been reading. I've read about 20 books, cover to cover, and I don't see your issues as type specific.

I'm not being defensive I'm rebutting you in the tone I take with pretty much everyone I meet on the forum. If its too direct for you then cry about it cuz its not going anywhere soon.

Helen Palmer Audio Book
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/5368444/Palmer/palmer/Palmers 8.mp3

Naranjo
http://socionix.com/misc/books/121777877-Character-and-Neurosis.pdf

Ennea-type VIII, on the other hand, is essentially lazy-minded (type IX), though its
characteristic odd inwardness-avoidance is covered up with the typical intensity with which the
individual seeks to make himself feel alive, escaping the sense of deadness attendant upon his
or her lack of interiority.

This article
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/133-Instinctual-Stackings

the sexual instinct is often referred to as the "one to one" instinct in other areas of enneagram. Also beatrice chestnut is a good one.

So are you a 5, 6 or an 8? or none of the above?

 

[Chad of the OttomanEmpire]

I'm not being defensive I'm rebutting you in the tone I take with pretty much everyone I meet on the forum. If its too direct for you then cry about it.

Helen Palmer Audio Book
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/5368444/Palmer/palmer/Palmers 8.mp3

Naranjo
http://socionix.com/misc/books/121777877-Character-and-Neurosis.pdf

This article
Socionics - the16types.info - Instinctual Stackings

the sexual instinct is often referred to as the "one to one" instinct in other areas of enneagram. Also beatrice chestnut is a good one.

So are you a 5 or an 8?

LOL DJ. If writing "come now" is crying, you really must live in hell. My immense sympathies, as noted I live there myself.

Yes, I've read Chestnut. I find her words on 8s to be lacking and show a lack of understanding on her part. She parrots Naranjo without much elaboration.

I've read two of Palmer's books which I find very insightful. She points to stimulation as a bi-product of inner deadening, but not the reason for pain itself. Indeed, as naranjo and maitri point out, it's the sense of having been wronged that is the source of suffering.

The dominant instinct is your point of insecurity and neurosis; the link you provided initially led me to type as sp/sx. I had to think about that one.

Have you read Jerome Wagner's stuff? I find his ideas on self image to be most informative.

 

[Azure Flame]

LOL DJ. If writing "come now" is crying, you really must live in hell.

Who do you think i am, insanity wolf? stop talking to me like I'm shouting at you. Jesus christ. This is me being normal, but the more you presumptuously talk to me like I'm constantly screaming, the more irritated I get and my tact disappears as I succumb to your self fulfilling prophecy. So knock it off.

Yes, I've read Chestnut. I find her words on 8s to be lacking and show a lack of understanding on her part. She parrots Naranjo without much elaboration.

I've read two of Palmer's books which I find very insightful. She points to stimulation as a bi-product of inner deadening, but not the reason for pain itself. Indeed, as naranjo and mairi point out, it's the sense of having been wronged that is the source of suffering.

The dominant instinct is your point of insecurity and neurosis; the link you provided initially led me to type as sp/sx. I had to think about that one.

Have you read Jerome Wagner's stuff? I find his ideas on self image to be most informative.

Wait, so, because you mistyped that means this link is wrong? No I haven't read jerome wagner's stuff. Or if I did I didn't know it was wagner. I read a lot of stuff.

 

[Azure Flame]

and when the hell did I say "come now" was you crying? Did you say that to yourself really loudly in your mind or something? because I definitely never said that. I feel like I'm conversing with a schizo. This "intellectual conversation" is about to cease if you keep talking to me like this.

If you want to be blocked, please continue speaking to me with whatever unseedable judgements are floating in your mind.

 

[Chad of the OttomanEmpire]

Who do you think i am, insanity wolf? stop talking to me like I'm shouting at you. Jesus christ. This is me being normal, but the more you presumptuously talk to me like I'm constantly screaming, the more irritated I get and my tact disappears. So knock it off.



Wait, so, because you mistyped that means this link is wrong? No I haven't read jerome wagner's stuff. Or if I did I didn't know it was wagner. I read a lot of stuff.

Hey, no. I'll write to you in my own style. If you can't handle that, too bad. If you think that's "screaming" or "insanity"...whatever. That's fair, right? You interact your way, I interact mine.

No I did not say the link was wrong. I stated my knowledge of its contents and my opinion on it. It is certainly not inaccurate but it did lead me to some misconceptions.

 

[Chad of the OttomanEmpire]

and when the hell did I say "come now" was you crying? Did you say that to yourself really loudly in your mind or something? because I definitely never said that. I feel like I'm conversing with a schizo. This "intellectual conversation" is about to cease if you keep talking to me like this.

Haha, what?

 

[Chad of the OttomanEmpire]

If you want to be blocked, please continue speaking to me with whatever unseedable judgements are floating in your mind.

Oh DJ, I'm sorry it's come to this. I actually rather like you and your creative ideas. I'm not judging you in the slightest. I know nothing about you beyond this message board. I wouldn't claim to.

 

[Azure Flame]

So I'll ask you again since you haven't answered my question,

Are you an 8?

 

[ginniebean]

I always get the impression that 8's can't self soothe by themselves or perhaps that's something that comes later in life. With no means of self soothing that may trigger a fear of dependency which can only be met in an intimate relationship. I'm surrounded by 8's in my immediate family and among my friends and I find that when they are raging in their hell there's nothing that can soothe them or diminish whatever internal pain they're experiencing. In my experience after the rage comes a sulky period where if you are careful there are entry points for caring and affection to penetrate which is what the 8 seems to want and need.