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[Traditional Enneagram] Enneagram Type and MBTI function correlations...

Werebudgie

I want my account deleted
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Jan 20, 2014
Messages
398
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
6w5
[MENTION=20531]yeghor[/MENTION], I'm not interested in substantive or other dialogue with you. I simply do not respect your intelligence and I think your approach to typology is along the lines of delusional.

Anyone else reading: I have already communicated with [MENTION=8936]highlander[/MENTION] my best thinking on possible ways to address some of the problems, though it's also true I also suspect that the problems with this site are likely far too entrenched to be changed even with good intentions and efforts. I'd love to be wrong on that second part but not holding my breath.
 

Jaguar

Active member
Joined
May 5, 2007
Messages
20,647
Enneagram 1 = Ni? Sounds to me like all you want to do is have your own enneagram type (Enneagram 1) match up with your own so-called MBTI type, INFJ.
Btw, there's an E1 INTP, E1 ESTJ, and E1 ENFJ in this forum. And that's just for starters.
 

yeghor

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 21, 2013
Messages
4,276
Enneagram 1 = Ni? Sounds to me like all you want to do is have your own enneagram type (Enneagram 1) match up with your own so-called MBTI type, INFJ.
Btw, there's an E1 INTP, E1 ESTJ, and E1 ENFJ in this forum. And that's just for starters.

There's some truth to what you said. Starting around 8 years ago, I've become quite certain about my type and have been learning about functions and typology ever since.

My understanding of the functions and typology have doubled since I've joined the forums and exchanged ideas with people.

It is true that I've used my own type and enneagram result as a template to try to understand the correlation between MBTI functions and enneagram types.

I am an extremely self conscious and conscientous person, to my detriment, which fits with INFJ type, as well as someone with an overdeveloped superego, causing all kinds of problems related with a weak ego. As for enneagram, enneagram 1, 5, 6 and 2 keeps coming out strong in my enneagram results.

I can easily see that my Fe is related to (or represented by) my 2 score and Ti is related to 5 score.

In a discussion outside this topic, I've noticed that self conscientous (read "anal") types are usually IxxJs, who happen to have dominant Si or Ni. So being an Si-dominant or Ni-dominant must imply the presence of a too strong superego that inhibits an individual's behaviour and living, whereas to the contrary, Ne and Se dominant types i.e. ExxPs are disinhibited in their behaviour, which fits with the concept of an overdeveloped "id", i.e. impulsive drives for pleasure seeking.

So this must mean perceiving functions have something to do with "superego" and "id" depending on their direction. They have power over the ego in the dominant position, which means the individual's ego is suppressed or amplified in case of being a superego-dominant or id-dominant type, respectively. Therefore, perceiving functions N and S must be acting independent of an individual's ego (autonomously) to have power over the ego. The interaction between superego, ego and id is defined as follows:

The ego represents what may be called reason and common sense, in contrast to the id, which contains the passions ... in its relation to the id it (ego) is like a man on horseback, who has to hold in check the superior strength of the horse; with this difference, that the rider tries to do so with his own strength, while the ego uses borrowed forces."[22] Still worse, "it serves three severe masters ... the external world, the super-ego and the id."[20] Its task is to find a balance between primitive drives and reality while satisfying the id and super-ego. Its main concern is with the individual's safety and allows some of the id's desires to be expressed, but only when consequences of these actions are marginal.

"Thus the ego, driven by the id, confined by the super-ego, repulsed by reality, struggles ... [in] bringing about harmony among the forces and influences working in and upon it," and readily "breaks out in anxiety—realistic anxiety regarding the external world, moral anxiety regarding the super-ego, and neurotic anxiety regarding the strength of the passions in the id."[23] It has to do its best to suit all three, thus is constantly feeling hemmed by the danger of causing discontent on two other sides. It is said, however, that the ego seems to be more loyal to the id, preferring to gloss over the finer details of reality to minimize conflicts while pretending to have a regard for reality. But the super-ego is constantly watching every one of the ego's moves and punishes it with feelings of guilt, anxiety, and inferiority.

In the IxxJ types, the type of superego sensitivity is distinguished by the accompanying auxiliary function, which would mean IxFJ types would be sensitive (anal) about their behaviour related with the Fe domain, whereas IxTJ types would be sensitive about their behaviour related with the Te domain. I know by personal experience that in IxFJs, this is related with being a too nice person to the point of letting go of one's own preferences and desires in favor of others' and being too sensitive to people's feedback about the self, which turns into a compulsion for people pleasing behaviour and codependent tendencies. This explains how enneagram 2 compulsion fits with IxFJ types.

The superego dominance of IxxJ types also manifests itself in the form of perfectionism and self-berating for perceived shortcomings and mistakes. This fits well with enneagram 1 compulsion as follows:

ONEs try to be good so they won’t be punished. They want at all cost to stop their “conscience” from condemning them. One day it is no longer the real mother who plays this role. The mother’s demands are internalized and become their inexorable demands. It is their own punishing voices that now accuse the ONEs when they aren’t noble, helpful, and good enough. The point here is not necessarily objective goodness or willingness to sacrifice, but one’s own subjective concept of these virtues. Inside ONEs, court is continually in session; they are their own prosecutor, defender, and judge. The conflicting voices keep nagging them; they bicker, interrupt, contradict, and correct one another. Anybody who isn’t a ONE can hardly imagine how exhausting it is to go through this endless inner trial. At this point the “objective observer of the trial” has to come into play and say: “Stop this! Don’t drive yourself crazy with your own exaggerated standards and moral principles. And remember that these are your subjective views and not the objective truth.”

ONE-children have renounced the development of their true selves to please others and earn the love of people who have sent them the signal. “You’re okay only when you’re perfect.” ONE-children have the childhood driven out of them; too soon they have had to act like adults. Often they had to take on responsibility, very early on, for a family in which for one reason or another one of the parents was missing; or as the oldest child they had to take over and become a role model for the younger brothers and sisters.

So, Si-dom and Ni-dom is somehow connected to having a too strong superego, which fits with enneagram 1 type of compulsion. However, I've come to notice a difference of the manifestation of this superego dominance and the way the individual deals with this in Si-doms (one ISTJ and one ISFJ) and Ni-doms (one INFJ).

I've come to notice that ISxJs have this habit of being happy with the situation being fine in their immediate environment as well as denying seeing the presence of existing problems and suppressing them. I've seen my ISTJ father doing this all my life. An ISFJ coworker also have this habit of wanting to forget problems and be "perfect" in his ignorance and denial of them. Both my father and he don't want their internal peace (perfection?) disrupted by external factors and go to lengths of reinterpreting them so as to make them acceptable to their superego. It's some kind of reframing things to maintain inner peace. ISFJ coworker for instance says that even if he's mistreated at work, he (wants to) forgets all about it when he reaches home.

This drive\compulsion in ISxJs reminded me of enneagram 9 behavior as follows:

Psychological Defenses: NINEs use the defense mechanism of narcotization to avoid conflict (from within or without) and to maintain a self-image of being “comfortable/harmonious” (narcotization is using food and drink, reading, TV, or simply repetitive patterns of thinking and doing to put oneself in a state of reduced awareness and feeling)

Levels of Development

Middle: Active, but disengaged, unreflective, and inattentive. Do not want to be affected, so become unresponsive and complacent, walking away from problems, and “sweeping them under the rug.” Thinking becomes hazy and ruminative, mostly comforting fantasies, as they begin to “tune out” reality, becoming oblivious. Emotionally indolent, unwillingness to exert self or to focus on problems: indifference.

Lower: Begin to minimize problems, to appease others and to have “peace at any price.” Stubborn, fatalistic, and resigned, as if nothing could be done to change anything. Into wishful thinking, and magical solutions. Others frustrated and angry by their procrastination and unresponsiveness.

Directions of Integration and Disintegration

Stress (Average SIX)
NINEs attempt to avoid anxiety and conflict by detaching emotionally from active participation and by not talking about their real concerns and issues. But they can only use this defense up to a point, beyond which they can no longer contain their anxiety, frustration, and fear. At such times, they will begin to exhibit many of the characteristics and behaviors of average-to-unhealthy SIXes. The usually stable, easygoing NINE becomes worried, testy, and defensive. They begin to see others as the source of their unease, complaining to anyone who will listen, and blaming everyone else for their distress. They may also have issues with authority, feeling put upon or controlled by those they see as having power over them. Under prolonged stress, NINES completely lose their placid demeanor and become more and more reactive and nervous. They may seek help and reassurance from others but may just as quickly disparage them for “dominating” or “overwhelming” them.

INxJs OTOH cannot detach from their perceived problems cause N is more focused on the problem on a global\wholistic level wheras S is focused on it on a local\immediate vicinity level. Edit: I just hypothesize that Ns' problems are active in their minds even when the problematic impulse is no longer in their vicinity.

So it all makes sense to me that:

Enneagram 8 compulsions manifests itself in MBTI thru dominant-Se type of behaviour,
Enneagram 9 compulsions manifests itself in MBTI thru dominant-Si type of behaviour.
^S spectrum.

Enneagram 2 compulsions manifests itself in MBTI thru auxiliary-Fe type of behaviour.
Enneagram 3 compulsions manifests itself in MBTI thru dominant-Fe type of behaviour.
Enneagram 4 compulsions manifests itself in MBTI thru dominant-Fi type of bahaviour.
^F spectrum.

Enneagram 7 compulsions manifests itself in MBTI thru domnant-Ne type of behaviour.
Enneagram 1 compulsions manifests itself in MBTI thru dominant-Ni type of behaviour.
^N spectrum.

Enneagram 5 compulsions manifests itself in MBTI thru dominant-Ti type of behaviour.

I've doubts about enneagram 6 behaviour. I've seen my ENTJ friend displaying counterphobic 6 behaviour. He says things like "let it be him\her who's afraid rather than me." I don't know if his enneagram 6 score is high or not. He also seems to have a compulsion to control the behaviour of people around him so as to feel safe and he does this thru Te and seems to value loyalty (to him). So I guess enneagram 6 compulsions are manifested in MBTI thru Te-dominant behaviour (which also make the spectrums complete)
^T spectrum.

So this is the story behind the theory.

Enneagram 1 = Ni? Sounds to me like all you want to do is have your own enneagram type (Enneagram 1) match up with your own so-called MBTI type, INFJ.
Btw, there's an E1 INTP, E1 ESTJ, and E1 ENFJ in this forum. And that's just for starters.

I'd believe they are mistyping themselves in one (or both) of the systems.

So you are right that I've used myself as a reference point to start with this theory. But it's a starting point for me rather than an end.

I'd love to try to read your enneagram result if you will.

Why "so-called" by the way? Do you see behaviour in me that doesn't fit with INFJ type?
 

Liason

I'm more offensive in person!
Joined
Jul 8, 2008
Messages
185
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Regarding the commonality between enneatypes with Ni doms and Ti+Se

From what I have observed Ti+Se emulates Ni quite well, and vice versa, understandably making ISTP's the most common mistype for INTJ's. I find it logical they would share their most common enneatypes. The sensory connections to Ti would be an identical experience to that of an Ni dom, yet with the combination of Ti+Se, it would not relate well to Fe as a processing system (relevant to how the individual primarily thinks), as it is only a system of data directly relating to their experiences. It would exclude dom Fe for this reason, and tighten the categorical colander as to where aux Fe might apply, as dom Fe is the base external source of what is and is not acceptable in one's environment, an entirely different route of thinking, especially as a dominant extraverted function, where it is subconsciously affiliating the environment with personal values, beliefs, and ideals. Thusly, ENFJ's would be correlated with vastly different ennea patterns, and INFJ's would be more commonly in tune with types that think in such a way to promote, upkeep, and or protect their ideals, despite these types coming to them in a similar associative mechanisms to dom Ni, thusly 1's, 6's, and 9's for INFJ's, and 1's, 2's, 3's, and 6's for ENFJ's. INFJ's would not mesh as type 2's or 3's very often, as it is a type more concerned with their environment, and the associations they create for themselves. Logically, this would be why ENFJ's would be much more commonly found as such. Despite being heavy users of both Ti and Se, ESTP's do not emulate Ni very well, as rather than Se supplementing a range of information with personal experiences, Ti is supplementing a personal flavor of rationale to each experience Se provides.

While Si delves in with personal experiences too, it is more of a matchmaking system, and works to compare experiences with one another, ex: this smells is B, and though I have never smelled B, it smells close to A. It makes no conclusions with this information, simply differentiating between experiences as a comparative tool to be used by whichever function will provide it reasoning. As a comparative function, it does not align similarly with how Ni works, as Ni simply follows one mental association to another.
 

Jaguar

Active member
Joined
May 5, 2007
Messages
20,647
There's some truth to what you said. Starting around 8 years ago, I've become quite certain about my type and have been learning about functions and typology ever since.
My understanding of the functions and typology have doubled since I've joined the forums and exchanged ideas with people.

Considering the quality of posts spewed into the forum versus prior years, when this forum was comprised of mainly theoretical exploration, that doesn't say much of your understanding. At the present time, it's nothing but a game of Pin-the-Tail-On-The-Donkey - place a blindfold over your eyes and follow people around the forum pinning tails (types) on them is a strange game, hardly one that would lead to any degree of in-depth understanding or truth. What is "right" today may be "wrong" next year. How people look at themselves, and the world, can easily change over the years depending on life circumstances. I could post comments from one person made, say, ten years apart, and I would be willing to bet a large sum of money many would type the person as if they were two different people. I take the word "certainty" with a grain of salt.

yeghor said:
It is true that I've used my own type and enneagram result as a template to try to understand the correlation between MBTI functions and enneagram types.

Food for thought:

Many organizations use both the Enneagram and MBTI because they are highly complementary and focus on different but compatible aspects of human beings. In addition, there have been numerous correlations between Enneagram styles and MBTI types. For example, Enneagram style Ones tend more toward judging rather than perceiving, Twos tend more toward feeling than thinking, Fours tend more toward intuition than sensing, Fives are more often thinkers than feelers, and so forth.

What makes these correlations particularly interesting is that where correlations do exist, there are always individuals of a particular Enneagram style who are different from the norm. For example, what is the inner experience of a perceiving One, given that Enneagram Ones tend to judge themselves, others, and everything around them? What happens to a thinking Two, someone who tunes into others far more than him- or herself, values relationships and feelings, but then makes decisions more by principle and objective analysis than by feelings and values? Or a feeling Five – Fives automatically and instantaneously detach from their feelings then experience them later. What is it like to cut off from feelings when they are so central to who you are and how you make decisions? These are just a few of the many ways the Enneagram and the MBTI have synergies and raise paradoxical dilemmas.

Source: Other systems | The Enneagram in BusinessThe Enneagram in Business

Where you and I differ greatly is, you're likely to think, "Joe cannot be a particular type because of X, Y, or Z." I'm likely to think of possibilities as to how an unusual combination might work. Iow, what you automatically rule out, I ask "what if?" That's why I posted that food for thought quote.

I can easily see that my Fe is related to (or represented by) my 2 score and Ti is related to 5 score.

Go back and read the food for thought quote, again - the possibility of a feeling 5 or a thinking 2, and why, or how, that's possible, rather than forming a rigid framework with zero alternatives.

Consciousness is key.

So being an Si-dominant or Ni-dominant must imply the presence of a too strong superego that inhibits an individual's behaviour and living, whereas to the contrary, Ne and Se dominant types i.e. ExxPs are disinhibited in their behaviour, which fits with the concept of an overdeveloped "id", i.e. impulsive drives for pleasure seeking.

I could argue INFJs are insatiable cookie-eaters and sex addicts since they may have little control over their impulses, stemming from unconscious sensation. It's all in how you look at it.

An ISFJ coworker also have this habit of wanting to forget problems and be "perfect" in his ignorance and denial of them.

Try considering ISFJ for yourself. If the shoe fits, wear it.

Enneagram 8 compulsions manifests itself in MBTI thru dominant-Se type of behaviour,
Enneagram 9 compulsions manifests itself in MBTI thru dominant-Si type of behaviour.
^S spectrum.

Enneagram 2 compulsions manifests itself in MBTI thru auxiliary-Fe type of behaviour.
Enneagram 3 compulsions manifests itself in MBTI thru dominant-Fe type of behaviour.
Enneagram 4 compulsions manifests itself in MBTI thru dominant-Fi type of bahaviour.
^F spectrum.

Enneagram 7 compulsions manifests itself in MBTI thru domnant-Ne type of behaviour.
Enneagram 1 compulsions manifests itself in MBTI thru dominant-Ni type of behaviour.
^N spectrum.

Enneagram 5 compulsions manifests itself in MBTI thru dominant-Ti type of behaviour.

One way.
One way.
One way.
One way.
One way.
One way.
One way.
One way.

The only compulsion I see is in your approach to the enneagram. It's a neon sign blinking.

I'd love to try to read your enneagram result if you will.

Considering how you think, I have no interest.
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
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Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Considering the quality of posts spewed into the forum versus prior years, when this forum was comprised of mainly theoretical exploration, that doesn't say much of your understanding. At the present time, it's nothing but a game of Pin-the-Tail-On-The-Donkey - place a blindfold over your eyes and follow people around the forum pinning tails (types) on them is a strange game, hardly one that would lead to any degree of in-depth understanding or truth. What is "right" today may be "wrong" next year. How people look at themselves, and the world, can easily change over the years depending on life circumstances. I could post comments from one person made, say, ten years apart, and I would be willing to bet a large sum of money many would type the person as if they were two different people. I take the word "certainty" with a grain of salt.

Then why do you hang around this lame forum?
 

Mal12345

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Messages
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IxTP
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5w4
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sx/sp
Considering you predicted highlander would be more of a "pallbearer" for the forum, rather than an owner, I find your question ironic.

This forum is badly broken. It crawls, I'm constantly being asked if I want to "leave the page," it double-posts. In other words, there have been no significant performance improvements since [MENTION=8936]highlander[/MENTION] took the helm.

The only reason I stay is because it annoys you so for me to hang on to this sinking ship. :)
 

Mal12345

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Considering you predicted highlander would be more of a "pallbearer" for the forum, rather than an owner, I find your question ironic.

This forum is badly broken. It crawls, I'm constantly being asked if I want to "leave the page," it double-posts. In other words, there have been no significant performance improvements since [MENTION=8936]highlander[/MENTION] took the helm.

The only reason I stay is because it annoys you so for me to hang on to this sinking ship. :)
 

Jaguar

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Messages
20,647
This forum is badly broken. It crawls, I'm constantly being asked if I want to "leave the page," it double-posts. In other words, there have been no significant performance improvements since [MENTION=8936]highlander[/MENTION] took the helm.

The only reason I stay is because it annoys you so for me to hang on to this sinking ship. :)

I don't see it as a sinking ship; you do. But since I'm such a nice guy, would you like me to throw you overboard with a life jacket? Let me know.
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
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I don't see it as a sinking ship; you do. But since I'm such a nice guy, would you like me to throw you overboard with a life jacket? Let me know.

I have no opinion on this. Create a poll so I'll know what to think, like Obammy or Bill Clitown.
 

yeghor

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Joined
Dec 21, 2013
Messages
4,276
Argument:

Fe = Caring even about how insignificant others (strangers) feel (about the individual?) (Global domain)

Fi = Caring only about how significant others (intimate ones) feel (about the individual?) (Local domain)

Te = Caring even about how insignificant others (strangers) think (about the individual?) (Global domain)

Ti = Caring only about how significant others (intimate ones) think (about the individual?) (Local domain)

Could this be expanded to S and N?

Ne = Caring about external possibilities (Disregard for internal possibility, external fault finding?)

Ni = Caring about internal possibilities (Disregard for external possibilities, obsession with internal possibility)

Se = Caring about external reality (Disregard for internal reality)

Si = Caring about internal reality (Disregard for or dismissal of external reality)
 

Snow Turtle

New member
Joined
May 28, 2007
Messages
1,335
Type 1 Perfectionism |||||||||| 38%
Type 2 Helpfulness |||||||||||||||| 62%
Type 3 Image Focus |||||||||||||| 58%
Type 4 Individualism |||||||||||||| 54%
Type 5 Intellectualism |||||||||||||||| 66%
Type 6 Security Focus |||||||||||| 46%
Type 7 Adventurousness |||||||||||| 42%
Type 8 Aggressiveness |||||| 22%
Type 9 Calmness |||||||||||||||| 62%

type score type behavior motivation
5 16 I must be knowledgeable to survive.
2 15 I must be helpful and caring to survive.
9 15 I must maintain peace/calm to survive.
3 14 I must be impressive and attractive to survive.
4 13 I must be unique/different to survive.
6 11 I must be secure and safe to survive.
7 10 I must be fun and entertained to survive.
1 9 I must be perfect and good to survive.
8 5 I must be strong and in control to survive.

Your main type is Type 5
Your variant stacking is spsosx
Your level of health is below average, i.e. unhealthy

Your main type is which ever behavior you utilize most and/or prefer. Your variant reflects your scoring profile on all nine types: so = social variant (compliant, friendly), sx = sexual variant (assertive, intense), sp = self preservation variant (withdrawn, security seeking). Normally I see myself as a 6w5 though in terms of the whole anxiety and need to collect information to feel more certain about my positions.
 

yeghor

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Dec 21, 2013
Messages
4,276
Type 1 Perfectionism||||||||||38%
Type 2Helpfulness||||||||||||||||62%
Type 3Image Focus||||||||||||||58%
Type 4Individualism||||||||||||||54%
Type 5Intellectualism||||||||||||||||66%
Type 6Security Focus||||||||||||46%
Type 7Adventurousness||||||||||||42%
Type 8Aggressiveness||||||22%
Type 9Calmness||||||||||||||||62%

typescoretype behavior motivation
516 I must be knowledgeable to survive.
215 I must be helpful and caring to survive.
915 I must maintain peace/calm to survive.
314 I must be impressive and attractive to survive.
413 I must be unique/different to survive.
611 I must be secure and safe to survive.
710 I must be fun and entertained to survive.
19 I must be perfect and good to survive.
85 I must be strong and in control to survive.

Your main type is Type 5
Your variant stacking is spsosx
Your level of health is below average, i.e. unhealthy

Your main type is which ever behavior you utilize most and/or prefer. Your variant reflects your scoring profile on all nine types: so = social variant (compliant, friendly), sx = sexual variant (assertive, intense), sp = self preservation variant (withdrawn, security seeking). Normally I see myself as a 6w5 though in terms of the whole anxiety and need to collect information to feel more certain about my positions.

5_6 (27) 2_4 (28) 9_8 (22) 7_1 (19)

Fe>Ti>Si>Ne I am thinking xSFJ for you. I need to check your questionnaire for a more precise answer.
 

yeghor

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 21, 2013
Messages
4,276
Type 1 Perfectionism||||||||||38%
Type 2Helpfulness||||||||||||||||62%
Type 3Image Focus||||||||||||||58%
Type 4Individualism||||||||||||||54%
Type 5Intellectualism||||||||||||||||66%
Type 6Security Focus||||||||||||46%
Type 7Adventurousness||||||||||||42%
Type 8Aggressiveness||||||22%
Type 9Calmness||||||||||||||||62%

typescoretype behavior motivation
516 I must be knowledgeable to survive.
215 I must be helpful and caring to survive.
915 I must maintain peace/calm to survive.
314 I must be impressive and attractive to survive.
413 I must be unique/different to survive.
611 I must be secure and safe to survive.
710 I must be fun and entertained to survive.
19 I must be perfect and good to survive.
85 I must be strong and in control to survive.

Your main type is Type 5
Your variant stacking is spsosx
Your level of health is below average, i.e. unhealthy

Your main type is which ever behavior you utilize most and/or prefer. Your variant reflects your scoring profile on all nine types: so = social variant (compliant, friendly), sx = sexual variant (assertive, intense), sp = self preservation variant (withdrawn, security seeking). Normally I see myself as a 6w5 though in terms of the whole anxiety and need to collect information to feel more certain about my positions.
Having reviewed your questiınnaire I can say that you are an ISFJ.

The test seem to yield too high 5 scores in my case as well, I don't know why.
 

OrangeAppled

Sugar Hiccup
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Mar 20, 2009
Messages
7,626
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
INFJ's Fi is unconscious and is responsible for part of the INFJ's ulterior worldview in the Ni-Fi mechanism. There is false identification with the Fi function (as in relating to it as a conscious function) due to its unconscious presence in the INFJ's thoughts and decisions.

In Socionics, the INFp's Fi is the Demonstrative Function, which is essentially the same information as the written above, with some added inter-type relation features. For instance, the Demonstrative Function of a type is that type's dual's PoLR, meaning that if an INFp's dual's (ESTp) Fi PoLR gets hit unfairly by any Fi Ego valuing type, then the INFp will usually respond by slamming the Fi Ego type with Fi Demonstrative, which is released negatively usually against threats and much more powerfully (due to the fact that it is A. An unconscious function, and B. treated as though it is useless when used consciously). The Beebe model in JCF describes the Senex/Witch function as an assertion of authority to counter another's use of Fi against the common goals of the IxFJ.

Also, once-a-fucking-gain, the INFJ's most common types are Type 4, Type 5, and even Type 2 before Type 1 and cannot be specifically correlated directly with any type due to the nature of the Enneagram system, which works on motivations, fears, and drives rather than how the psyche functions. Sure, it can be extrapolated what certain JCF types want from functions such as the inferior, but these desires due not usually translate into Enneagram motivations or drives.

This is interesting. I've had a difficult time determining my socionics type because Fi is defined very differently in it, so much so that I can barely identify with it anymore. The overall type descriptions make the INFj (FiNe) sound like an enneagram 9 & the INFp (NiFe) sound like a 4, which further makes it confusing.

How would the INFJ (INFp) demonstrate unconscious Fi? Can you give a hypothetical situation?

I definitely see how MBTI INFJs falsely identify with Fi. There's a claim of individualism and blah blah blah when they seem pretty clearly guided by shared external concepts of good/bad/etc. To me, they seem to jump on the trend bandwagon for values, especially those deemed "progressive", but they claim they "think for themselves" because these ideas are not "traditional".
 

yeghor

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This is interesting. I've had a difficult time determining my socionics type because Fi is defined very differently in it, so much so that I can barely identify with it anymore. The overall type descriptions make the INFj (FiNe) sound like an enneagram 9 & the INFp (NiFe) sound like a 4, which further makes it confusing.

How would the INFJ (INFp) demonstrate unconscious Fi? Can you give a hypothetical situation?

I definitely see how MBTI INFJs falsely identify with Fi. There's a claim of individualism and blah blah blah when they seem pretty clearly guided by shared external concepts of good/bad/etc. To me, they seem to jump on the trend bandwagon for values, especially those deemed "progressive", but they claim they "think for themselves" because these ideas are not "traditional".
I think that socionics INFj and INFp descriptions talk about MBTI INFJ and INFP respectively rather than the other way around as commonly accepted. I'd expect INFj to resemble enneagram 1 ratgher than 9 though.

Also socionics Fi and Ni might be talking about MBTI Fe and Ne, respectively as well, which would explain the mismatch between the two systems.

About the Fi, my shadow Fi gets inflamed from time to time so I have a basic feel of it.

I'd expect IxFPs to have the same experience with Fe.
 

Alea_iacta_est

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This is interesting. I've had a difficult time determining my socionics type because Fi is defined very differently in it, so much so that I can barely identify with it anymore. The overall type descriptions make the INFj (FiNe) sound like an enneagram 9 & the INFp (NiFe) sound like a 4, which further makes it confusing.

How would the INFJ (INFp) demonstrate unconscious Fi? Can you give a hypothetical situation?

I definitely see how MBTI INFJs falsely identify with Fi. There's a claim of individualism and blah blah blah when they seem pretty clearly guided by shared external concepts of good/bad/etc. To me, they seem to jump on the trend bandwagon for values, especially those deemed "progressive", but they claim they "think for themselves" because these ideas are not "traditional".

Perhaps the difference in the definitions lies in the fact that the Cognitive Function system we use for MBTI is anarchic, with varying definitions of functions based upon who you ask. The Socionics Fi provides a more concrete, static definition but, in my opinion, is too specific, and should be a bit more generalized and sapped of qualities that might apply to some Fi users and not to others (like with Hidden Agenda Fx).

The INFp would usually utilize demonstrative Fi as a contingency for when your adherence to Creative Fe is questioned. Therefore, when someone questions your adherence to society's ethics (Fe) and values, your general reaction will be to individually reason out the ethics of the situation and engage in rationalizations as to why you align yourself with society's values. It is also worth noting that, based on the "dimenisonality of functions", that Demonstrative Fi is a stronger function than Creative Fe (4-dimensional over 3-dimensional function), meaning that the INFp will be better at using Fi than Fe, but will generally not care about it or only use it when it is needed, except in the formation of the sociotype's worldview, where it will play a major role.

The Fe-Fi thing going on here generally seems like this:
  • INFp: I believe [insert ethical or social opinion that is accepted by the INFp because the group accepts it]
  • Fi-Valuer: Why do you believe that, though?
  • INFp: Well, [insert rationalizations and ethical reasoning on the spot, as the information had been accepted primarily because it was embodied by the group without necessarily having been filtered by Fi or personal opinions on the ethical/social subject]


A more realistic situation involving a controversial ethical subject (a goldmine for finding F-egos):
  • INFp: I believe that abortion is wrong. (From this perspective, the opinion that abortion is wrong, when gathered with Fe, will generally be accepted because the society/community that the INFp is in or the group (s)he values believes that abortion is wrong)
  • Fi-Valuer: Why do you believe that?
  • INFp: (Realizing that it would not be appropriate to say that the reasoning is based off of the perspective of others and arguments of others) Well, it seems wrong to kill an unborn child because it is living creature, and it should not be put to death by another's choice. (Ethical rationalization to defend alignment with the group)


This, therefore, is akin to being caught off guard when aligning yourself with a group value (almost like bandwagon) and having to mobilize your reasoning for doing so very quickly. You will realize that you are using the Demonstrative function when you are in a bit of a defensive posture in explaining things observed or accepted by the Creative Function. You can really notice this function when you are sort of building your argument for a position (in the case of rational Creative functions) on the fly, and when you are building rationalizations for the sole purpose of getting others to accept what you accept with your Creative Function, which adds a bit of a manipulative undertone.

Also, Socionics type descriptions are abysmal. The better way to figure out your sociotype is to learn Model A and the various mechanics of the system.

For those who adhere to the j/p switch for both systems, the INFx mistyping is easily understandable, even though arguments from the other camp include the infamous "They are nothing alike function-wise, it should be easy to tell them apart". Through Dimensionality of functions, we see that the two "strongest" functions (4-dimensional) of the INFx type (IEI and EII) are Fi and Ni, then followed by the 3-dimensional functions of Fe and Ne, then 2-d Si and Ti, then 1-d Te and Se. The only difference are the roles of the functions and their valuing/devaluing.

Also, the above post mentions that Socionics Fi and Ni seem more like Fe and Ne, which contradicts one of the sole elements completely shared between the Jungian Anarchic System and Socionics, Extroversion/Introversion; ergo, the correlations would be forced to switch functions along the extroverted/introverted axis, and the Jungian type of INFP (FiNe) would correlate to ENFj (EIE).
 

Aleria

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Enneagram Test Results

The Enneagram is a personality system which divides the entire human personality into nine behavioral tendencies, this is your score on each...

Type 1 Perfectionism |||||||||||| 50%
Type 2 Helpfulness |||||||||| 34%
Type 3 Image Focus |||||||||||| 42%
Type 4 Individualism |||||||||||||||||||| 90%
Type 5 Intellectualism |||||||||||||||| 66%
Type 6 Security Focus |||||||||||||||| 62%
Type 7 Adventurousness |||||||||| 38%
Type 8 Aggressiveness |||||||||||| 46%
Type 9 Calmness |||||| 30%

type score type behavior motivation
4 22 I must be unique/different to survive.
5 16 I must be knowledgeable to survive.
6 15 I must be secure and safe to survive.
1 12 I must be perfect and good to survive.
8 11 I must be strong and in control to survive.
3 10 I must be impressive and attractive to survive.
7 9 I must be fun and entertained to survive.
2 8 I must be helpful and caring to survive.
9 7 I must maintain peace/calm to survive.

Your main type is Type 4
Your variant stacking is spsosx
Your level of health is very low, i.e. very unhealthy
 

yeghor

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Dec 21, 2013
Messages
4,276
Enneagram Test Results

The Enneagram is a personality system which divides the entire human personality into nine behavioral tendencies, this is your score on each...

Type 1 Perfectionism||||||||||||50%
Type 2Helpfulness||||||||||34%
Type 3Image Focus||||||||||||42%
Type 4Individualism||||||||||||||||||||90%
Type 5Intellectualism||||||||||||||||66%
Type 6Security Focus||||||||||||||||62%
Type 7Adventurousness||||||||||38%
Type 8Aggressiveness||||||||||||46%
Type 9Calmness||||||30%

typescoretype behavior motivation
422 I must be unique/different to survive.
516 I must be knowledgeable to survive.
615 I must be secure and safe to survive.
112 I must be perfect and good to survive.
811 I must be strong and in control to survive.
310 I must be impressive and attractive to survive.
79 I must be fun and entertained to survive.
28 I must be helpful and caring to survive.
97 I must maintain peace/calm to survive.

Your main type is Type 4
Your variant stacking is spsosx
Your level of health is very low, i.e. very unhealthy

4_3 (32) 5_6 (31) 1_7 (21) 8_9 (18)

Fi Ti Ni Se = inconclusive. Sorry.
 
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