[Traditional Enneagram] 4s - Why

[TheCheeseBurgerKing]

Anyway it's very obvious to me why communication is failing in the relationship that has been cited here. I mentioned feeling comfortable to cry and resolve something with a partner and the presumption was made that I'm jealous of the things that make them happy. It seems to me [MENTION=17452]collierm48[/MENTION] - you are the one who is unhealthy. Maybe your partner is too, but if you are half as presumptuous with him as you were with me, reading meaning into the post that wasn't there, and blowing things way out of proportion to make widespread assumptions, then no wonder he's unhappy. If he's lucky you'll cut him loose and he'll find someone who he can be honest with, who won't read hidden expectations into his attempts at genuine communication.

No you're wrong youre extrapolating from my tone in this conversation. Im just in a bad mood im not like this all the time

Also it sounds like youre assuming im gay lmao. Really, dont try and figure out my situation unless Ive given you clear information, you sound like a huge idiot no offense. Extrapolating without evidence, classic NFP. This has to do with a friendship/roommate situation and is ABSOLUTELY NOT about a romantic relationship.


In a very small sense, you're right. I assume things alot (in general) which really fucks me up. I do really appreciate you pointing that out

 

[small.wonder]

Well i agree with what you just said. I must have been explaining something wrong.

It was just the way that animal explained 4s that i reacted too. She said it like they just cried when they were jealous and expected people to except that. That had to have been misinformation because thats unhealthy.

I mean admitting where we are at is healthy, but only if we can acknowledge the falseness of how we feel sometimes-- like, "hey I just need you to know that I feel like you don't value me because of _________, though I know that's not true." Those kinds of statements just bring honesty and vulnerability to the table, and let you know that we are wrestling with it. We extend that kind of honesty when we are healthy as a valuable gem of trust, it's like letting our walls come down and allowing you to see the inner workings.

[MENTION=17911]Animal[/MENTION] is an awesome lady, it just sounds like you guys had a communication blip.

Its just that I hate the thought that someone who should be supporting me wants me to fail inside.
The whole idea of someone watching what I do and feeling anything other than happy for me is just ridiculous to me because I always wish well for others. As long as they aren't big morons.

Yeah, that would suck. As a generally healthy 4 I do not do that to anyone in my life, I'm fully supportive and happy for my loved ones when they succeed. When I was less healthy though it was really hard to not attack myself when I'd see others do well. Average and unhealthy 4's compare themselves and find themselves wanting, so seeing others succeed is like salt to the wound of already feeling flawed and misunderstood. Please hear me, I'm not excusing this at all. I just wanted to explain why 4's of lower health act antagonistically or enviously when others do well. All of the types in unhealth are decidedly unpleasant though.

Were I you, I'd not put up with someone who tried to make me feel guilty or wrong for succeeding (or who I felt wasn't happy for me). If your 4's unhealth is dragging you down, you keeping him around doesn't help either of you. And in truth, 4's tend to need to crash and burn before we grow-- that often means people who care about us need to let us fall on our faces.

Really, I have some internal fears that Im sorting out and I hate it because it takes my focus that I want to use on my goals.
Im sorting it out, its just complicated.

You are totally a 7. Sorting out that inner stuff is so crucile for 7's to grow, though it does probably feel annoying or counterproductive to you. I think it's awesome and bold that you are sorting through it!

Edited: Oh! I thought you were a 7 anyway, but I see your badge says 6w5. Did it not say a 7 tritype before? Perhaps that was someone else.

EDIT: really the thing i dont like about 4s is the tendency to hold grudges do to pride.
Theres plenty that I dont like about myself as well.

Pride is a trait of 2 (that's their cardinal Passion) which makes sense if you are seeing that in your 4-- unhealthy 4's disintegrate to 2. Remaining silent about our feelings is what leads to those grudges and passive aggression for 4's. This is why healthy 4's are pretty blunt and can be reactive, if we don't get it off of our chests immediately it can fester. It's crazy for me now to even remember doing that on a regular basis, being as straight forward as I am has made me into a total "water under the bridge" person. As long as truth is on the table, I can forgive and forget like lightning...this actually drives my 2 Mom crazy because she needs like four days to process. Haha.

 

[Animal]

I mean admitting where we are at is healthy, but only if we can acknowledge the falseness of how we feel sometimes-- like, "hey I just need you to know that I feel like you don't value me because of _________, though I know that's not true." Those kinds of statements just bring honesty and vulnerability to the table, and let you know that we are wrestling with it. We extend that kind of honesty when we are healthy as a valuable gem of trust, it's like letting our walls come down and allowing you to see the inner workings.

There is a large gap between emotional manipulation (crying, accusing etc) and simple communication. * You outlined it perfectly here.


This is exactly what I meant, and how I would approach it as well. I have never, in my life, gone to someone and started accusing them of things, the way [MENTION=17452]collierm48[/MENTION] has done to me, by assuming I'm jealous, stripping people of their happiness, and accusing my lovers of things, when all I said was that I am healthier when I can share my emotions.

Right there, [MENTION=17452]collierm48[/MENTION], instead of writing a speech about how I'm awful because I don't want others to be happy - and then saying terrible things about 4s on the whole, based on false presumptions about my post… if you had asked me to clarify - that might have opened the door for communication between us.

you're right. I assume things alot (in general) which really fucks me up. I do really appreciate you pointing that out

Glad if it helps.

Also for the record, I could not possibly assume you're gay because I have no idea what your gender is

But whether it's a friend or a boyfriend or what, the same applies. If you presume extra meaning in his words the way you did with me, and start accusing him of things, it isn't going to pave the way to healthy communication.

There's a huge difference between me misreading that it wasn't a relationship (especially when you were responding to my posts which were CLEARLY about relationships and you did not bother to correct me) - and what you did. My misconception there, could have been cleared up in one sentence, and was not an accusation against your character. All you had to say was "no it's a friend not a boyfriend." Okay, fixed. What you did to me, was much deeper extrapolation about the MEANING of my post, my character, how I behave, etc, which lead even FURTHER, to a presumption about ALL 4s, and ''4s suck" and more bullshit about 4s overall.. based on something you projected on me, which I didn't even say. That's very different than misreading a detail because I was talking about relationships and you were responding directly and not clearing it up.

And then, after that, you tell me I'm extrapolating? (Not just me, but ALL NFPs!!) Because I missed a detail, whereas you extrapolated information pertaining to my very character, and that of all 4s, and all NFPs. Yep, I'm the one who is extrapolating because I misread a detail which is actually quite irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Major projection here.

No you're wrong youre extrapolating from my tone in this conversation. Im just in a bad mood im not like this all the time

Oh really? I thought 4s were the devil incarnate because we impose our moods on other people?

How can you use your "mood" as an excuse then?

 

[prplchknz]

Oh really? I thought 4s were the devil incarnate because we impose our moods on other people?

How can you use your "mood" as an excuse then?

What is it? "Those we despise, we're doomed to become"?


If that's the case I'm going to hate some pretty awesome and successful people

 

[Animal]

What is it? "Those we despise, we're doomed to become"?


If that's the case I'm going to hate some pretty awesome and successful people

Haha good idea!! Success is the best revenge, or so they say.

 

[prplchknz]

Haha good idea!! Success is the best revenge, or so they say.

Never heard that. But makes sense

 

[Animal]

Never heard that. But makes sense

My 7w8 father taught me that way back in elementary school when the other kids were mean to me.

 

[prplchknz]

My 7w8 father taught me that way back in elementary school when the other kids were mean to me.

I remember those times, not fun

 

[á´…eparted]

My 7w8 father taught me that way back in elementary school when the other kids were mean to me.

The problem with that is, if the kid will get satisfaction from that. I was bullied a lot as a kid, and my dad often told this to me. I always regarded it as vapid. That, and I'm also not vengeful.

 

[Animal]

I remember those times, not fun

I was a great student and school was very easy for me. I had a growing theater/ music career as a kid & early teen, and a lot of kids were jealous of my singing voice and excellent grades which I got practically in my sleep. I spent lunch periods practicing music etc. And took tons of lessons and started working in bars at 13 & before that, was in lots of local shows, out til 1am sometimes at rehearsals even in middle school. But school work was just so damn easy and I remembered everything the teachers said and just flew through it. Other kids would mock me and even the teachers in my school district would encourage the "bad kids" and give them stickers, and tell the smart kids to "give the others a chance" so I shouldn't raise my hand if I know the answer (which I usually did). It was that kind of school district where smart and successful = bad. And people were REALLY mean, chased me with hockey sticks in middle school and called me "flat chested whitey" and other racial slurs. My father just said.. success is the best revenge and if nobody hates you, you're doing something wrong and failing to stand out. ;P

 

[Animal]

The problem with that is, if the kid will get satisfaction from that. I was bullied a lot as a kid, and my dad often told this to me. I always regarded it as vapid. That, and I'm also not vengeful.

That's very noble. I can be vengeful… but outside of a very unhealthy period of my life during a severe trauma-reaction, I've never really "acted" on anything vengeful. I just put all my anger into my song lyrics or stories, and write vengeful characters etc. But irl I'm too compassionate to really be vengeful. But I can't lie, it could be a motivator back then, when I was feeling terrible about myself, to think.. well one day they will be jealous that I'm true to myself and stuck to my talents and didn't let their bullshti bring me down. These 'cool girls' will be married with families like everyone else and I'll be a famous rockstar. And they will watch me on tv and feel sorry for themselves.


This is just how I felt about the other kids when I was very down though. Overall, I love music for music - I don't even care about fame - care mostly about expressing myself honestly.

 

[á´…eparted]

That's very noble. I can be vengeful… but outside of a very unhealthy period of my life during a severe trauma-reaction, I've never really "acted" on anything vengeful. I just put all my anger into my song lyrics or stories, and write vengeful characters etc. But irl I'm too compassionate to really be vengeful. But I can't lie, it could be a motivator back then, when I was feeling terrible about myself, to think.. well one day they will be jealous that I'm true to myself and stuck to my talents and didn't let their bullshti bring me down. These 'cool girls' will be married with families like everyone else and I'll be a famous rockstar. And they will watch me on tv and feel sorry for themselves.

I'm not talking about that sort of vengance. In this case it's pretty much as mild as it can get, in a "ha! See? I proved you wrong. I AM something and you are not! I'm better than you". I just don't, and never have identified with that. I was also a very smart kid, and was often told "you're made fun of for being smart". In some ways I believed it, in others, I didn't. The idea that they were jealous seemed rediculous, and ultimately I just didn't care that much about it. If they were jealous, that's their problem. They weren't trying to stop me so it wasn't worth fretting over.

Another reason I just don't identify with it, is it assumed the nature of others, which likely isn't true. In my experience, most people aren't all that jealous or envious (if they are it isn't strong). If they aren't, then being successful won't really do much to them.

I'll get all kinds of bent out of shape over the success (or lack of) with others, but it's for totally different reasons, and it's not frequent anyway.

 

[Animal]

I'm not talking about that sort of vengance. In this case it's pretty much as mild as it can get, in a "ha! See? I proved you wrong. I AM something and you are not! I'm better than you". I just don't, and never have identified with that. I was also a very smart kid, and was often told "you're made fun of for being smart". In some ways I believed it, in others, I didn't. The idea that they were jealous seemed rediculous, and ultimately I just didn't care that much about it. If they were jealous, that's their problem. They weren't trying to stop me so it wasn't worth fretting over.

Another reason I just don't identify with it, is it assumed the nature of others, which likely isn't true. In my experience, most people aren't all that jealous or envious (if they are it isn't strong). If they aren't, then being successful won't really do much to them.

I'll get all kinds of bent out of shape over the success (or lack of) with others, but it's for totally different reasons, and it's not frequent anyway.

I don't REALLY presume they are ACTUALLY jealous of me in some objective way.
For instance, I would never assume that a friend of mine was being mean to me because she's jealous. (My father would, but I wouldn't.) This would not be my first instinct in terms of resolving an actual issue.

What I'm talking about has almost nothing to do with the individuals at hand, and what their motivations actually are. It has more to do with a general feeling of triumph over idiocy. Like.. "everyone thinks I'm nothing but I'll prove them wrong and be true to myself!" It doesn't matter if I pick out each kid individually and they are actually jealous at the present time. It's more a fantasy that they are assholes and one day they'll get what they deserve. And I will also get what I deserve, since their bullshit didn't touch me. More similar to what you said than it might have sounded before, perhaps?

But there were people who actually told me (eventually) that they were jealous of my singing voice and/or turned on me after I landed roles or attracted boys that they wanted etc. I wouldn't just PRESUME someone is jealous of me but sometimes the pieces do add up, and kids can be cruel in that scenario.

The meanest that peoplE EVER were to me was in highschool when a very desirable boy liked me and not them, and a whole crew of girls started throwing spitballs in my hair and calling me "slut" - the day after they found out he kissed me. To me that sounds like jealousy *shrug* - I'm not saying they wanted to BECOME me, but they wanted at least one thing i had.


I should also mention, perhaps, that the kids who chased me with hockey sticks came from poor families, and called me "Rich bitch." (I'm not rich, but it looked that way compared to them) - that's a form of jealousy.

 

[á´…eparted]

I don't REALLY presume they are ACTUALLY jealous of me in some objective way.
For instance, I would never assume that a friend of mine was being mean to me because she's jealous. (My father would, but I wouldn't.) This would not be my first instinct in terms of resolving an actual issue.

What I'm talking about has almost nothing to do with the individuals at hand, and what their motivations actually are. It has more to do with a general feeling of triumph over idiocy. Like.. "everyone thinks I'm nothing but I'll prove them wrong and be true to myself!" It doesn't matter if I pick out each kid individually and they are actually jealous at the present time. It's more a fantasy that they are assholes and one day they'll get what they deserve. And I will also get what I deserve, since their bullshit didn't touch me. More similar to what you said than it might have sounded before, perhaps?

But there were people who actually told me (eventually) that they were jealous of my singing voice and/or turned on me after I landed roles or attracted boys that they wanted etc. I wouldn't just PRESUME someone is jealous of me but sometimes the pieces do add up, and kids can be cruel in that scenario.

The meanest that peoplE EVER were to me was in highschool when a very desirable boy liked me and not them, and a whole crew of girls started throwing spitballs in my hair and calling me "slut" - the day after they found out he kissed me. To me that sounds like jealousy *shrug* - I'm not saying they wanted to BECOME me, but they wanted at least one thing i had.

Oh ok I misunderstood then. It's more things that are learned after the fact.

Ultimately what I was/am trying to say is the whole:

"everyone thinks I'm nothing but I'll prove them wrong and be true to myself!"

is something I don't relate to.

 

[Animal]

Oh ok I misunderstood then. It's more things that are learned after the fact.

Ultimately what I was/am trying to say is the whole:



is something I don't relate to.

Yeah , fair. Like to you, they're just irrelevant?

 

[á´…eparted]

Yeah , fair. Like to you, they're just irrelevant?

Sort of. I just don't gain satisfaction from subverting others expectations or whatever. Since I don't, I don't strive for it.

 

[Animal]

Sort of. I just don't gain satisfaction from subverting others expectations or whatever. Since I don't, I don't strive for it.

I want to be clear - I don't strive for it either per Se. Most people don't exist to me and have no affect on me. This is simply something that might cheer me up when I was young and they were being particularly mean. Overall, "they" have no affect on my life goals and now that they're out of my face I don't think about them at all.

 

[Noon]

So what I'm getting from this thread is that it's best to evaluate the 4s on a case by case basis.

Pause for revolutionary insight.




More seriously, someone here brought up one of the fear points I have.

Its just that I hate the thought that someone who should be supporting me wants me to fail inside

Ho hum.
[MENTION=17911]Animal[/MENTION] gives the 4 love in me much hope though.

 

[Animal]

So what I'm getting from this thread is that it's best to evaluate the 4s on a case by case basis.

Pause for revolutionary insight.




More seriously, someone here brought up one of the fear points I have.



Ho hum.

[MENTION=17911]Animal[/MENTION] gives the 4 love in me much hope though.

<3

 

[TheCheeseBurgerKing]

[MENTION=15318]Evee[/MENTION] [MENTION=17911]Animal[/MENTION]

Its just ridiculous how I can't tell a 4 about my accomplishment with him seeming butthurt. I mean yeah I'm sure that geting butthurt like that is supposed to be a characteristic of an unhealthy 4, but all 4s I know DO NOT like hearing about anyone elses accomplishments regardless of presentation. Its so true dont any of you try denying it, because I call bullshit.

[MENTION=15318]Evee[/MENTION] Are you night and days?

EDIT: Yea you are lol. Do you ever consider INFP? You cross me as the dark, edgar allen poe infp type. Haha lol