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[Traditional Enneagram] 4s - Why

Evo

Unapologetic being
Joined
Jul 1, 2011
Messages
3,160
MBTI Type
XNTJ
Enneagram
1w9
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
:yes: My problem is that I require emotional closeness and work hard to establish that. While I have no problem creating the random moment here and there with acquaintances and friends, people who I hold dear I need a permanent state with to feel safe - to truly be myself. And having someone who non-stop reverts to the 'keeping them at arms-length' position is incredibly taxing for me. It basically means you're nonstop wiggling on my inner/outer circle line which drastically influences the amount of info you're entitled to. Compare it to non-stop having to open and close the castle gate - it gets exhausting as beyond the walls I'll stay in full battle armour and inside, I usually take off my armour.

6's seem to be focused on uncovering any inconsistencies that could in their mind hide unveiled truth. I get it, it is what makes you so great at anticipating danger and guarding against betrayal. But that means you're non-stop putting the topic/issue/problem before our relationship. *We* are never the priority. And that to me is the antithesis of trust. It also means that when I've been lulled into being comfortable around you and letting my guard down, it feels as if you're suddenly dragging me into the police station to be questioned by the KGB and dragged in front of a judge and jury. It's like having a friend that wears a wire around you - for me. And I...I just don't respond well to that. With friends, it wrecks the bond. People who do this to me when they don't even know me that well, I experience as just utterly disrespectful and arrogant as they apparently feel entitled to answers from me to soothe their own anxiety while questioning me in the most hostile way. It's like the inquisition all over again.

Anyways, call me elitist, but I feel that if you've vetted me and you have been my friend for a while, you owe me the benefit of the doubt - even and *especially* when you cannot see where Im coming from or why I would say such a thing. And (this is an Fi demand) that you actually have some grasp on who I am.That you'll know that the perception you're getting right now is in direct opposition with the person you know me to be - which *should* imho initially carry more weight than your snap shot of a perception. And often, I find, that that is not the case. Anxiety kicks in and the interrogation starts. Note that I said 'interrogation'. Genuine curiosity, genuine awareness of the fact that they don't have to answer your questions ( you don't even have to state this, it will just show in how you ask the question) and a desire to understand is very much appreciated as that leads again to feeling loved and understood.

I show my love by attempting to understand someone, to truly get where they're coming from and what is important to them in life. And yes, at the highest levels of friendship - and especially in my mate for life - I crave that someone does at least somewhat do the same for me. When you each time call me in for questioning, without the benefit of the doubt (You actually are pretty good about the benefit of the doubt, btw :hug:),without taking two minutes to ask yourself how the situation likely makes sense to me, how it could not be what you perceive it to be, and how you can actually be fairly certain that that is what i meant due to who I am...it breaks my heart - and make me feel unloved. It effectively makes me question if Ive invested more in you than you in me. And it also annoys the crap out of me to find that you call me in for questioning every time on the same pattern (Ne-dom elitism?) that I've explained a hundred times to you now, just because *to you*, it still doesn't make sense. It's exhausting to non-stop have the burden of proof put upon you and have your loyalty questioned like that. And I experience it as extremely disrespectful - though I'm aware none of this is likely to be meant this way.

But yeah, that makes me grant you your wish - keeping you at arm's length and appreciating your friendship from a distance.

The friend used in the example is an ISFJ who struggles with the balance between trusting her tertiary Ti and overly relying on it as well as overvaluing the mastery of it, which riddles her with anxiety. She subsequently feels both in awe and at risk of being played when around NTPs.

This is good, I really wanted you to explain more, cause I wanted to pinpoint the real difference between me and the other 6. (I laughed at the part about wearing a wire lol.)

Now where you said:

It effectively makes me question if I've invested more in you than you in me.

^that part right there, I am asking myself that all the time. That is actually one of the ways I figure out how much I can trust someone. It plays a huge part in my relationships. And it will take some time for someone to prove that I'm not investing all my energy for nothing...but once I'm past that point. You're in. I am almost blind to your faults once we are past that point.

I have actually had an ISFJ make me question whether they trust me or not. IMO I think it's cause they lose sight of the big picture. A simple example was when I was ordering a bunch of food but was in a rush. And my ISFJ friend was very upset with me that I didn't get them anything...Which in turn made me really angry lol. Cause 99.9% of the time I am the person that is always making sure I don't leave anyone out. And the one time I do leave someone out, I get questioned? :huh: If I had to put up with that kind of accusation on a consistent basis (which consistent could mean once every couple months or even just more than a few times) I would not be able to stay close with that person.

So I can see if that trait being amplified by and ISFJ.

And thank you :) I try really hard not to do that. Really hard. If I do question someone like that, it will often be in silence, as I wait for more context before I conclude anything. And you are right it's all about the way in which you ask the 4. Like I have learned to really ask my ENFP 4 friend what happened before I jump to conclusions. It is still hard though not to jump a little. Especially with her....for some odd reason. I think it may have to do with the part that she can be very dramatic. So the feedback I get from her, is not always consistent or "streamlined." (lol) Like I need to outright talk with her about where we stand for me to feel ok about it. And every time we do outright talk about it, I feel surprised because I am misjudging the situation. (Which is not usual for me :shock:)

It's hard to remember in the moment that she (the ENFP 4) is just as or even more reactive than me. lol That, and I also cannot believe anything that anyone tells me about her...ever. Even when it's another concerned friend...lol cause the story will be all wrong :doh:, and causes drama...lol

But the elitism you're concerned about probably comes from your 4-ness. I think I read that somewhere. And also it would make sense cause it's about image or what not. But also, it's Fi. You shouldn't have to prove yourself to anyone that isn't taking the time to get to know you. And IMO that's a healthy stance, so no worries. :)
 

TheCheeseBurgerKing

New member
Joined
Jan 5, 2013
Messages
473
MBTI Type
ISTP
Enneagram
8
Healthy: I tell my partner I'm jealous. I cry. He accepts it. I fall into his arms and laugh and thank him for accepting me. We make love.


oh you poor soul, you're jealous boohoo. 4s suck

[MENTION=8413]Zarathustra[/MENTION]
My conclusion: 4s are baby back bitches that some how get away with functioning in society this way.
 

Noll

New member
Joined
Oct 12, 2013
Messages
705
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sp
oh you poor soul, you're jealous boohoo. 4s suck

[MENTION=8413]Zarathustra[/MENTION]
My conclusion: 4s are baby back bitches that some how get away with functioning in society this way.
You're too funny. Do you really think we are functional?!
 

small.wonder

So she did.
Joined
Feb 8, 2013
Messages
965
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Seriously, tho...

What is it about 6s and 4s?

I honestly feel like we're both moths to each other's flames

It's fascinating to me that there seems to be a lot of agreement around that (from both 4's and 6's here) but I don't feel that way at all. :shrug: The "moth to flame" thing is more with 8's for me. I think maybe I'm generally not attracted to 6's because my older brother is 6w7 and (though I love and respect him greatly) I've seen through our relationship why I couldn't handle a 6 SO. It's mostly the anxiety and skepticism that I just couldn't stomach all the time, I do have some awesome 6 friends though. :)

[MENTION=17452]collierm48[/MENTION] It sounds to me like you've just chosen unhealthy examples of 4, I get your frustration (unhealthy anything can be horrible) but I think you'd be pleasantly shocked if you met a healthy 4.
 

Noll

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Oct 12, 2013
Messages
705
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INFP
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4w5
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sp
Lol, Im sure that goes for everytype and every enneagram
Really? I have a hard time imagining a lazy 3w2 or 1. 4's, 5's, 7's and 9's makes me think of laziness. Basically the most common types on this forum.
 

TheCheeseBurgerKing

New member
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Jan 5, 2013
Messages
473
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ISTP
Enneagram
8
[MENTION=17452]collierm48[/MENTION] It sounds to me like you've just chosen unhealthy examples of 4, I get your frustration (unhealthy anything can be horrible) but I think you'd be pleasantly shocked if you met a healthy 4.


Wrong. I like unhealthy 4s better because then I dont have to hear their self pitiful bullshit, they just keep their ignorant jealousy in and tourture them selves, just way that they deserve it to be. Its certainly not my fault that people like that dont know how to deal with their feelings.
 

Noll

New member
Joined
Oct 12, 2013
Messages
705
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
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sp
Wrong. I like unhealthy 4s better because then I dont have to hear their self pitiful bullshit, they just keep their ignorant jealousy in and tourture them selves, just way that they deserve it to be. Its certainly not my fault that people like that dont know how to deal with their feelings.
I think you must be misinformed. I become very whiny and cynical when I'm unhealthy. When I'm healthy, I'm more like I am right now.
 

TheCheeseBurgerKing

New member
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Messages
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I think you must be misinformed. I become very whiny and cynical when I'm unhealthy. When I'm healthy, I'm more like I am right now.

Maybe im thinking of different levels of unhealthiness. Maybe not sure
 

Amargith

Hotel California
Joined
Nov 5, 2008
Messages
14,717
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
4dw
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
From enneagraminstitute, a chart on the unhealthy to healthy descriptions of a 4.

Type Four—More Depth by Level
Healthy Levels
Level 1 (At Their Best): Profoundly creative, expressing the personal and the universal, possibly in a work of art. Inspired, self-renewing and regenerating: able to transform all their experiences into something valuable: self-creative.

Level 2: Self-aware, introspective, on the "search for self," aware of feelings and inner impulses. Sensitive and intuitive both to self and others: gentle, tactful, compassionate.

Level 3: Highly personal, individualistic, "true to self." Self-revealing, emotionally honest, humane. Ironic view of self and life: can be serious and funny, vulnerable and emotionally strong.

Average Levels
Level 4: Take an artistic, romantic orientation to life, creating a beautiful, aesthetic environment to cultivate and prolong personal feelings. Heighten reality through fantasy, passionate feelings, and the imagination.

Level 5: To stay in touch with feelings, they interiorize everything, taking everything personally, but become self-absorbed and introverted, moody and hypersensitive, shy and self-conscious, unable to be spontaneous or to "get out of themselves." Stay withdrawn to protect their self-image and to buy time to sort out feelings.

Level 6: Gradually think that they are different from others, and feel that they are exempt from living as everyone else does. They become melancholy dreamers, disdainful, decadent, and sensual, living in a fantasy world. Self-pity and envy of others leads to self-indulgence, and to becoming increasingly impractical, unproductive, effete, and precious.

Unhealthy Levels
Level 7: When dreams fail, become self-inhibiting and angry at self, depressed and alienated from self and others, blocked and emotionally paralyzed. Ashamed of self, fatigued and unable to function.

Level 8: Tormented by delusional self-contempt, self-reproaches, self-hatred, and morbid thoughts: everything is a source of torment. Blaming others, they drive away anyone who tries to help them.

Level 9: Despairing, feel hopeless and become self-destructive, possibly abusing alcohol or drugs to escape. In the extreme: emotional breakdown or suicide is likely. Generally corresponds to the Avoidant, Depressive, and Narcissistic personality disorders.

Seems envy and self-pity are both located on the last level before entering into truly unhealthy territory.
 

Animal

So carnal it's spiritual
Joined
Mar 9, 2013
Messages
650
MBTI Type
SeFi
Enneagram
4
oh you poor soul, you're jealous boohoo. 4s suck

[MENTION=8413]Zarathustra[/MENTION]
My conclusion: 4s are baby back bitches that some how get away with functioning in society this way.

Im not jealous all the time. I'm actually a very reasonable partner. The point is that when I have these feelings it's better if I express it. Everyone has such feelings and my willingness to express it can even disarm the other person and cause open communication. Obviously I would not be able to communicate well with anyone who just said "Who you are SUCKS" and decided which type of people are 'good' or 'suck' and I'm in the suck category. If that's the case I wouldn't be with that person. But in most of my relationships, the other person is equally or more jealous than I am.
 

Animal

So carnal it's spiritual
Joined
Mar 9, 2013
Messages
650
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I think you must be misinformed. I become very whiny and cynical when I'm unhealthy. When I'm healthy, I'm more like I am right now.
When I'm unhealthy I'm LESS whiny and expressive. More just whining into my music and wishing the other person would "figure it out" which I think is unhealthy and unrealistic. When I'm healthy I express myself, which means the problem gets solved and then I feel better. :)
 

small.wonder

So she did.
Joined
Feb 8, 2013
Messages
965
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Wrong. I like unhealthy 4s better because then I dont have to hear their self pitiful bullshit, they just keep their ignorant jealousy in and tourture them selves, just way that they deserve it to be. Its certainly not my fault that people like that dont know how to deal with their feelings.

Woah there, you are quite misinformed. Healthy 4's are the opposite of self pitying, we become much more direct, controlled and purposeful like a 1 (4's integration point). Saying you prefer someone who is passive aggressive to someone who uses their words and speaks truth is weak. I do not value or lend my time to people who are too weak to handle truth. Healthy 4's are realists who've allowed their pain and scars to be redeemed and used for good, often through creative expression that serves to encourage and speak the truth of "beauty from ashes" to the world at large.
 

á´…eparted

passages
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
8,265
Really? I have a hard time imagining a lazy 3w2 or 1. 4's, 5's, 7's and 9's makes me think of laziness. Basically the most common types on this forum.

I'm a 1w2, and I am lazy. I just hide it as hard as I can, and fight against it when I have to.
 

TheCheeseBurgerKing

New member
Joined
Jan 5, 2013
Messages
473
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Woah there, you are quite misinformed. Healthy 4's are the opposite of self pitying, we become much more direct, controlled and purposeful like a 1 (4's integration point). Saying you prefer someone who is passive aggressive to someone who uses their words and speaks truth is weak. I do not value or lend my time to people who are too weak to handle truth. Healthy 4's are realists who've allowed their pain and scars to be redeemed and used for good, often through creative expression that serves to encourage and speak the truth of "beauty from ashes" to the world at large.

Well i agree with what you just said. I must have been explaining something wrong.

It was just the way that animal explained 4s that i reacted too. She said it like they just cried when they were jealous and expected people to except that. That had to have been misinformation because thats unhealthy.

Its just that I hate the thought that someone who should be supporting me wants me to fail inside.
The whole idea of someone watching what I do and feeling anything other than happy for me is just ridiculous to me because I always wish well for others. As long as they aren't big morons.

Really, I have some internal fears that Im sorting out and I hate it because it takes my focus that I want to use on my goals.
Im sorting it out, its just complicated.


EDIT: really the thing i dont like about 4s is the tendency to hold grudges do to pride.
Theres plenty that I dont like about myself as well
 

Animal

So carnal it's spiritual
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Mar 9, 2013
Messages
650
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SeFi
Enneagram
4
It was just the way that animal explained 4s that i reacted too. She said it like they just cried when they were jealous and expected people to except that. That had to have been misinformation because thats unhealthy.
It's not misinformation or unheatlhy. It has to do with direct communication.

I've had partners that aren't 4s - MALE partners - who have cried because they were jealous. Some have broken things. And then I've had some partners who never cried or broke anything, but constantly checked up on me. (to be clear, breaking things is not okay - I don't accept any violence and leave at any sign of it)

I don't do anything underhanded. If I'm too unstable to get in a relationship, I don't get into one. If I'm in a good relationship where communication is open and welcome, then if I need to cry, I cry, and so does he. My last boyfriend was a 9w8 and cried as much during the relationship as I did. It was still only a handful of times, but it shows that we trusted each other to show emotions. Nothing unhealthy about that. My first boyfriend was an 8w7 and cried for me more often than I did. Even got on his knees and cried and begged me not to leave him.

Don't mistake discussing something and showing emotion here and there, for a whole relationship of crying and manipulation. It seems to me that you are jumping to a conclusion that is unrelated to what I meant by my post.

I can't stand men who run the other way every time I show any emotion or express upsetness. That is unhealthy. Me crying every day, or even every week, woudl be unhealthy as well, but feeling like if I need to cry I can cry to him directly, is healthy, and its something that my boyfriends give back to me.

And no, I don't date wimps. i am actually into rugged men who can do things with their hands. But those are still humans who like to feel safe to express emotions with someone they love.


Its just that I hate the thought that someone who should be supporting me wants me to fail inside.
The whole idea of someone watching what I do and feeling anything other than happy for me is just ridiculous to me because I always wish well for others. As long as they aren't big morons.

Presumption city here. ;P

I've never been jealous of someone doing something to make them happy for themselves. I'm talking about being jealous of their exes or another woman they might like better, which is something I should be able to discuss.

In fact - in any given relationship - my partner is more jealous of MY free time because I spend more time alone than anyone else I've ever met. I need tons of time to myself and i LOVE it when I have a partner with tons of interests of his own so he won't take up all my time. I'm very happy for the accomplishments of others, even exes.

The jealousy is just about comparing myself to his own exes, not to his activities or things he does for himself, which has NEVER EVER been an issue with me, even slightly.

If there's anything 4s can understand, it's the will for someone to express themselves. I would never take that away from anyone, and I would not want anyone to take it from me.

I've never had a man complain that I'm too jealous or I cry too much. The worst complaint I receive over and over is that I'm too detached and spend too much time doing my own thing. That's why I said it's HEALTHIER if I am able to express my emotions and resolve an issue directly, rather than simply being detached and aloof and feeling like he wouldn't understand, which creates distance and ruins communication.


Communication is healthy.
 

Animal

So carnal it's spiritual
Joined
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Messages
650
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SeFi
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4
Anyway it's very obvious to me why communication is failing in the relationship that has been cited here. I mentioned feeling comfortable to cry and resolve something with a partner and the presumption was made that I'm jealous of the things that make them happy. It seems to me [MENTION=17452]collierm48[/MENTION] - you are the one who is unhealthy. Maybe your partner is too, but if you are half as presumptuous with him as you were with me, reading meaning into the post that wasn't there, and blowing things way out of proportion to make widespread assumptions, then no wonder he's unhappy. If he's lucky you'll cut him loose and he'll find someone who he can be honest with, who won't read hidden expectations into his attempts at genuine communication.
 
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