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7 + 4 {relationally}

R

Riva

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E4 is something i can never relate to and thank my lucky stars i can't.

I don't recall ever dating a e4; so can't give feedback there. From what i have read in this thread it seems like a terrible idea too. I can be sensitive and open up when the moment strikes but don't think i can do it when it is needed. Okay that's not true either. I can and do so whe i realize it is required but i just have to have physical contact to do so. Considering what has been written here it seems though it is jot enough and my goodness i wouldn't be able to meet those standards. Hmm i just can't imagine someone like [MENTION=8031]Ginkgo[/MENTION] being so emotionally open and expressive at random moments. (Correct me if i am wrong.)

Friendship wise it has been smooth sailing. I don't think they see me as someone who is open for their whatver therefore i haven't been a victim of whatever. However i have had instances where one person kept on getting offended by me and assume i mean the worst. Is this a e4 thing or a e6 thing? Also is it common to not solve issues by talking about them for e4s or could it be a e9 tritype thing?

I have read at a couple of instances that 4s and 8s make god partners. I just can't see that happening seeing how sensitive 4s seem to be and how unresponsive 8s seems to be to snsitivity.
 

chickpea

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the complaints about made up shit. like...it is visceral...it pisses me off. it's being handed a beautiful gift and shitting all over it.

The thing is that I can be remarkably calm during actual, serious life problems. But the seemingly insignificant stuff is what will really bother me and that I'll dwell on.
 

FDG

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I personally don't get on very well with "reactive" types (4-6-8) in day-to-day life. I perceive them as quickly making mountains out of molehills in everyday issues, and that can really stress me out.
 

chubber

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I personally don't get on very well with "reactive" types (4-6-8) in day-to-day life. I perceive them as quickly making mountains out of molehills in everyday issues, and that can really stress me out.

but guys :cry:.........:D
 
G

Ginkgo

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Hmm i just can't imagine someone like [MENTION=8031]Ginkgo[/MENTION] being so emotionally open and expressive at random moments. (Correct me if i am wrong.)

I don't think I tell people what I'm feeling unless I trust them, which requires a level of depth not offered to most of those in a group setting. If I'm emotionally expressive, it's typically in response to someone who targets me, puts me on the spot, or if I'm doing it to help someone not feel alone. My emotional expressions are almost always premeditated, so if that's the opposite of "random", as you say, then you're right.

As far as 4s relating to 7s - I think we often enjoy similar pastimes. We can both be exhibitionists, but for opposite reasons. 4s are more drawn toward what they see as negative while 7s are drawn toward what they see as positive - those things often overlap because both types often have a taste for novelty. Both types tend to possess a strong sense of hope and vision.
 
G

Ginkgo

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[MENTION=6164]Riva[/MENTION], 7s will learn something like a magpie picks up a new bit of trash and swiftly takes it to the nest, while 4s will learn something in depth, even if it means they break their assholes into 3 pieces. Still, both types like finding unorthodox things to mull around.
 

small.wonder

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I think he was sp-last, actually! He had definitely disintegrated to Two, though.

I don't think healthy relationships between Fours and Sevens are impossible (nothing's impossible). I tried to give these ridiculous illustrations of marinading chickens and coked-up co-eds because that's unfortunately how we'd started to view each other. Ours was not a healthy relationship; we'd take off the gloves instead of working together to find common ground.

The Wandering Eye Syndrome is a risk factor, however. I won't speak for everyone (I know that Sevens can settle down and marry), but this has been my personal experience. I know that I am this way, and trying to explain to my friends that I've never been attracted to a single person at any time in my whole life...well, that gets some weird looks.

The good news is that I don't need to act on those attractions, and if I love somebody enough, then that person can truly be enough. I've never cheated and I love very passionately. The bad news is that I imagine the mere knowledge of my involuntary attractions could make a Four pretty bummed out inside, nurturing feelings of worthlessness and resentment...and that's not how I'd ever want to make a romantic partner of mine feel.

Anyway, I'm glad that you found some worthwhile tidbits to pick over! :)

Specifically on the Wandering Eye Syndrome: Actually, I think 4's and 7's are both very particular about their romantic partners (especially if Sx-first) and are guilty of the WES (as I shall call it), but at different stages of the game. 7's are eager and focused in the beginning but their eyes can wander once invested, but 4's can be the complete opposite when healthy (unhealthy 4's are clingy the whole way through). I'm kind of a hard catch in the early stages because I know how capable I am of merging totally with someone, and the pain that can cause if it doesn't last. I like to keep my options open and am hesitant to commit to or even encourage one person specifically unless they've made their intentions known. I've found that it's actually healthy for me to allow myself to be attracted to more than one person (as a single, uncommitted person) because if I focus on one too soon in the relationship, I will obsess over them in my head-- that leads to all sorts of bad disintegrating. I find it so interesting how much juxtaposition there is between 4 + 7 in that. I wonder if the opposite is healthy for 7's: to allow themselves to narrow the playing field, focus in on and peruse one person. I'd love your thoughts (as well as any other 7's reading) on that.

On your honesty about WES, I think that telling the truth is the best thing you can do in that situation. I also think having an emotionally healthy, self-confidant partner helps quite a bit to prevent WES. :)
 

Animal

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My post on PerC about this topic yesterday:

I fear that I cannot escape my fate. No matter how hard I try to avoid it, I am going to end up marrying a 7. I will convince myself he is another type until it's too late, and the truth will ultimately reveal itself. My fate is bound to a life of deciphering cryptic nuances, surviving drastic shifts in mood, striving to win a single round of mental chess, and being ignored until its convenient. I am DOOMED.



nLqC-DdGHKSa4pmdbrcQ32Jl8JOjrYex_ntFh03e-Kg_zps29a4f8d5.png

 

small.wonder

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I fear that I cannot escape my fate. No matter how hard I try to avoid it, I am going to end up marrying a 7. I will convince myself he is another type until it's too late, and the truth will ultimately reveal itself. My fate is bound to a life of deciphering cryptic nuances, surviving drastic shifts in mood, striving to win a single round of mental chess, and being ignored until its convenient. I am DOOMED.



nLqC-DdGHKSa4pmdbrcQ32Jl8JOjrYex_ntFh03e-Kg_zps29a4f8d5.png


Oh? Please, do expand on that.
 

Luv Deluxe

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Specifically on the Wandering Eye Syndrome: Actually, I think 4's and 7's are both very particular about their romantic partners (especially if Sx-first) and are guilty of the WES (as I shall call it), but at different stages of the game. 7's are eager and focused in the beginning but their eyes can wander once invested, but 4's can be the complete opposite when healthy (unhealthy 4's are clingy the whole way through). I'm kind of a hard catch in the early stages because I know how capable I am of merging totally with someone, and the pain that can cause if it doesn't last. I like to keep my options open and am hesitant to commit to or even encourage one person specifically unless they've made their intentions known. I've found that it's actually healthy for me to allow myself to be attracted to more than one person (as a single, uncommitted person) because if I focus on one too soon in the relationship, I will obsess over them in my head-- that leads to all sorts of bad disintegrating. I find it so interesting how much juxtaposition there is between 4 + 7 in that. I wonder if the opposite is healthy for 7's: to allow themselves to narrow the playing field, focus in on and peruse one person. I'd love your thoughts (as well as any other 7's reading) on that.

On your honesty about WES, I think that telling the truth is the best thing you can do in that situation. I also think having an emotionally healthy, self-confidant partner helps quite a bit to prevent WES. :)

This is a great post. Thank you for sharing! :)

I do align with the Seven perspective as you've described it here (the intense beginnings followed by a curiosity to explore something else), but your own approach resonates with me, too, even if for slightly different reasons. This has probably been the result of me learning more about the way that I am, coping long-term with the abusive situations I've been in, and rethinking the methods I've used in the past.

I used to dive in headfirst, recklessly following whatever chemical trails happened to pique my interest. I fear that I may be a romantic deep down because I used to pursue these men and engage in heavy, committed relationships at supersonic speed, actually believing there was potential for permanence when I hadn't known my partners for very long at all! I even once moved halfway across the country to be with a man whom I'd flirted with for all of three months. Obviously, that didn't end well; I spent nearly a year with that one before bailing when the going got tough.

Of course, this paradigm is shaky at best. I couldn't leave my partners without hurting them emotionally. In spite of the nasty things some of them would say in heated arguments, they all apparently found me charming and desirable enough that they wanted to keep me around. I was always the one to initiate my break-ups, and the men I dated would seem almost surprised that I wanted out - regardless of how many times I'd tried to express my growing restlessness and unhappiness. I would get hurt, too...sometimes physically.

I'm still driven by those chemical connections, and my friendships (with men, especially) still have a tendency to escalate quickly. This has always been my nature, and I've accepted that it always will be.

For a while now, though, I've been shy of entering formal, exclusive relationships. Not only am I hard to keep around, I'm no longer eager to commit in the first place...even if I really, really like the guy. In that aspect, I relate to your hesitation around new romantic candidates, but perhaps the reasons are just a little bit different. I've ceased to see the appeal in complicating even sexual relationships with an official status and the expectations that tend to follow; I know the risks of hurting other people with my changeability and Wandering Eyes, and I'm also aware of the likelihood of getting hurt myself (I guess I don't want to be vulnerable to that kind of damage anymore).

This perspective may not be the healthiest, according to some, but I'm quite happy and this is the approach I'm taking for now. And hey, since these are my individual experiences, it's unfortunately important to note that things shift a little whenever...abuse enters the picture. Ugh. Anyway, with regard to narrowing down the search and focusing on one person as being healthier for a Seven...it might be a good idea, it feels like a good idea, but it wasn't so good whenever I used to do it!

I think your summary of the Four/Seven flight modes is really interesting, and I agree with the general way you've got them sorted out. The Four I dated was, initially, less interested in getting serious than I was...then boom, two months later, he was cozy and happy while I began to fear the kind of seriousness I thought I had wanted in the beginning.
 

OrangeAppled

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As far as 7s in romance go, I briefly dated an ESFP 7w6 (not sure on instincts, but maybe sp/sx too). Good guy, no hard feelings, but I found him very draining. He required too much attention.

I liked him immediately though because he is very warm, personable and easy to talk to. He seems to find anything you say fascinating and is happy to talk about anything (to the point of tiring me). He certainly seems happy & upbeat, but is prone to irritation or frustration over some minor things. It passes quickly, but it's a trend I notice with 7s to not cope well. He also could be flaky & irresponsible. I felt like I had to play the "J", which I resented.

My ESFP sister is 7w6 also (so/sp I think, not really sure) and was quite the drama queen / attention-whore growing up. She's also very generous and loves to buy people gifts and basically lives to entertain in social situations (not like a professional performer). Growing up she didn't understand me much & would attack my personality a lot, basically telling me I was an "ugly person" & that people didn't like me, which was not true and which she has admitted to as an adult. There was a bullying streak in her to push to get what she wanted in a way that she seemed to think was justified, like it was for some greater good (7 ideals in a Se-dom I guess).

She has a LOT of interests, ranging from sports to poetry to cooking to writing - she's not one-dimensional as people make Se-dom out to be, but pretty typically 7 in this way. Like my ex, she has at least a surface interest in most things, making her easy to talk to, probably why people like her almost instantly.

She can seem deceptively positive. She actually gets depressed easily and has very few coping skills with anxiety. She will have an extreme impatience to get out of a mood or situation that is uncomfortable in anyway, which is some of where the hedonism comes from. Her level of impatience can make her hard to take at times; it's interesting how she has trouble seeing herself this way. It's like she thinks everyone else is bringing her down, but she is making everyone else miserable.

If she has no plans for some fun in the near future, then she gets frustrated. She's always planning weekend getaways, trips for the next summer, what to eat tomorrow night, etc. She has to have experiences to look forward to, or it's like she gets anxious. She blows through money like water. I tend to shake my head at how little foresight she has for practical things (and I'm an INFP 4!), but how much detailed planning she can put into a party or pleasure vacation.

We've always gotten along somewhat, but she had a bossy streak that would clash with my quiet stubbornness. With other people, she can get obnoxiously opinionated at times. I tend to get fed up with her short-sighted pleasure-seeking and she with my navel-gazing (often sees my analytical side as "hostile"). She likes to play "dumb blond" to manipulate people, which annoys me, and she accuses me of being a self-righteous martyr.

Some of this is our Jungian types clashing too of course. But we mostly get along, both being pretty easy-going and liberal in our tastes (not really attaching moral judgements to aesthetic experiences the way, say, my iSFJ e6 mom will). IDK if we'd be friends if not family, but given that I usually click with them, probably, once initial bias wore off on her end. With her various illnesses, she is more understanding towards others now who are not 24/7 upbeat partiers.

Ne-dom 7 is probably quite different. Not sure if my childhood best friend was ENFP 7w6, but likely. She adored me at first, then grew annoyed with how "anti-social" (aka unsociable) I was. I also was too much a voice of morality, even if in action more than words. She didn't want to be bothered with consciences.

Generally, I like 7s off the bat and they seem inclined to like me. We often both like art and novelty and some indulgence in luxury and experience, so they're fun to hang out with. For romance, I might find them too overwhelming in the long run. I can't match their energy and perhaps I would start to feel like a downer.
 

OrangeAppled

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That's why I like you...Get the fuck over it and stop being dramatic! Even thought it might hurt us, I think a slap like that is what most of us need :D ...

That would very much anger me. That's the kind of thing someone says to me if they want me to never speak to them again.

I do much better with someone making me laugh in a way that commiserates a bit but does not indulge. This helps me take it more lightly, the way it probably should be taken. Most 7s I know are witty enough to do this, and it seems more their style if healthier anyway. When unhealthy, they do what my sister does, which is to bully someone into "happy" or they split and run, I guess.

---
Oh, the ESFP e7 ex and I broke up because I got so tired of him that I started purposely being difficult and a downer so he'd break up with me (yep, I'm spineless like that sometimes). It worked like a charm, but I was so appreciative when he initiated the break-up talk that he seemed semi-insulted, like he realized my moodiness near the end had been something of a put-on.
 

hjgbujhghg

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That would very much anger me. That's the kind of thing someone says to me if they want me to never speak to them again.

I do much better with someone making me laugh in a way that commiserates a bit but does not indulge. This helps me take it more lightly, the way it probably should be taken. Most 7s I know are witty enough to do this, and it seems more their style if healthier anyway. When unhealthy, they do what my sister does, which is to bully someone into "happy" or they split and run, I guess.

Well most of the 7s I know have the charm you described. But really...I sometimes feel like there should be a person who tells me something like this. And where there is not I usually say this to my own self. I agree it can be very hurtful for a 4, but I can see at my own self, that sometimes my feelings are just too much. I just have this kind of breake within myself that simply doesn't allow me to go so dramatic about my feelings and sometimes I just like to hear...fuck your misery, life is about much more, than this. 4s just sometimes go too far...I dislike the drama.
 

Chad of the OttomanEmpire

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Too funny, my childhood best friend is a 7 too (w/8 to be specific)! Sidebar: Woah, I should totally talk to her about this whole topic, why did I not think of that! We got into shenanigans too, but the interesting thing is that we sort of juggled the leadership between us. I was guilty of the "what, other friends?" thing too, we actually had a third wheel tag-a-long friend (whom I believe is either 2w3 or 3w2) whom I was terrible to. It was probably out of territoriality towards my best friend, but it's not excuse-- I was way to honest about her annoying, clingy, cry-in-an-instant self. I have since appologized to her close to...10 times. At least a couple were in written form. :(
Weird, we had a 2w3 mutual friend as well (the child of the neighbor with the abused dog, actually). I'd get annoyed when we formed a trio, but eventually I'd realize "the more the merrier" and we'd all have a good time (why I'm soc-second, I guess). Still, that initial reaction was there. HOW DARE YOU HAVE OTHER FRIENDS?
About your 7 or 2 friend, I haven't had the fool-hardy issue with 7's yet. That's either because I don't know enough of them, or because I'm actually pretty adventurous myself-- I don't act like an idiot, but fear doesn't really have a place in my life.
I don't consider myself to be an overly fearful person, actually, but when my friend, unwed and 5 months pregnant, told me she was going to Egypt, alone, to teach English during the Arab Spring...that's like, Um LOL...Do you know how stupid you sound??? Things like that always had me shouting an opinion at her. I am not suggesting most 7s would do that, btw--she's quite at the extreme end of unrealism.

And, a couple people have given similar responses, which I'd like to comment on:
i think i just sort of live my life with the understanding of all the struggles people have to endure...all the hardships...like true hardships..poverty..mental illness...having no family or friends...being incarcerated...loosing family members...your child?? or not being able to care for them? or being evicted or not having a job? or being in a major accident etc etc

and i just have no patience for it...

the complaints about made up shit. like...it is visceral...it pisses me off. it's being handed a beautiful gift and shitting all over it.

sorry :cry:
First, let me say that as a 4w5 I am in total agreement with much of this. I have a sister, for instance, who claims to be a 4, and she's quite similar. She was raised in a double income household, never yelled at about money, never ostracized, never publicly humiliated, has had friends and lovers wherever she turned, and had not one, but TWO--count 'em, TWO--loving parents. For whatever reason, this is markedly different from my own upbringing, yet she's been even more ungrateful than I am!

She used to feel superior to us, for instance, because we're coarse people who haven't "suffered". And I just have to look at her and think, a) how do you know what we've experienced, and b) how exactly have you suffered???

Now I can go on the negative downswings you describe here...definitely..."I HATE MY LIFE!" but I have long tried to be cognizant of the fact that most people have it worse than I do.

I actually feel more depressed about the fact that I don't have a life than about the fact that I've "suffered". I can't speak for other 4s (clearly, not my sister anyway), but for me, it's the boredom inherent in being cut off from life. I've found that my self-pity is inversely proportional to the number of years I've spent having moved out of the house.

I think as reactive types, 4s tend to be in a better state when times are hard. It's when things are too easy that we start making problems for ourselves and others (or at least this has been a readily-observable principle in my life). Again, this is a reactive type thing.

Just be careful--as a 4, I could easily look at 7s and think they're shitting all over a beautiful gift by only opening it halfway and moving onto the next thing.

That would very much anger me. That's the kind of thing someone says to me if they want me to never speak to them again.

I do much better with someone making me laugh in a way that commiserates a bit but does not indulge. This helps me take it more lightly, the way it probably should be taken. Most 7s I know are witty enough to do this, and it seems more their style if healthier anyway. When unhealthy, they do what my sister does, which is to bully someone into "happy" or they split and run, I guess.
Strongly agree. What I resent more than anything is someone telling me to "get over something". That essentially belittles my own experience and, with the way I am, will likely end with my fist in your teeth--or at least a door slamming in your face. When I'm having my "moods", the best possible thing anyone can do is let them burn out. They will, and if it disturbs you that I'm experiencing something, that says more about you than it says about me, actually.

It's far better still to offer me an incentive, like ice cream. If you can divert my attention without judging me or acting like you think I'm "wrong", then we can talk. If you attempt to force me out of something because I displease you, you're only going to inflame the issue.
 

Lady_X

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Weird, we had a 2w3 mutual friend as well (the child of the neighbor with the abused dog, actually). I'd get annoyed when we formed a trio, but eventually I'd realize "the more the merrier" and we'd all have a good time (why I'm soc-second, I guess). Still, that initial reaction was there. HOW DARE YOU HAVE OTHER FRIENDS?

I don't consider myself to be an overly fearful person, actually, but when my friend, unwed and 5 months pregnant, told me she was going to Egypt, alone, to teach English during the Arab Spring...that's like, Um LOL...Do you know how stupid you sound??? Things like that always had me shouting an opinion at her. I am not suggesting most 7s would do that, btw--she's quite at the extreme end of unrealism.

And, a couple people have given similar responses, which I'd like to comment on:

First, let me say that as a 4w5 I am in total agreement with much of this. I have a sister, for instance, who claims to be a 4, and she's quite similar. She was raised in a double income household, never yelled at about money, never ostracized, never publicly humiliated, has had friends and lovers wherever she turned, and had not one, but TWO--count 'em, TWO--loving parents. For whatever reason, this is markedly different from my own upbringing, yet she's been even more ungrateful than I am!

She used to feel superior to us, for instance, because we're coarse people who haven't "suffered". And I just have to look at her and think, a) how do you know what we've experienced, and b) how exactly have you suffered???

Now I can go on the negative downswings you describe here...definitely..."I HATE MY LIFE!" but I have long tried to be cognizant of the fact that most people have it worse than I do.

I actually feel more depressed about the fact that I don't have a life than about the fact that I've "suffered". I can't speak for other 4s (clearly, not my sister anyway), but for me, it's the boredom inherent in being cut off from life. I've found that my self-pity is inversely proportional to the number of years I've spent having moved out of the house.

I think as reactive types, 4s tend to be in a better state when times are hard. It's when things are too easy that we start making problems for ourselves and others (or at least this has been a readily-observable principle in my life). Again, this is a reactive type thing.

Just be careful--as a 4, I could easily look at 7s and think they're shitting all over a beautiful gift by only opening it halfway and moving onto the next thing.


Strongly agree. What I resent more than anything is someone telling me to "get over something". That essentially belittles my own experience and, with the way I am, will likely end with my fist in your teeth--or at least a door slamming in your face. When I'm having my "moods", the best possible thing anyone can do is let them burn out. They will, and if it disturbs you that I'm experiencing something, that says more about you than it says about me, actually.

It's far better still to offer me an incentive, like ice cream. If you can divert my attention without judging me or acting like you think I'm "wrong", then we can talk. If you attempt to force me out of something because I displease you, you're only going to inflame the issue.

I hear ya but don't relate to that. Maybe it's the sxness. It must be. But I open a beautiful gift and my heart feels overwhelmed by the beauty... Like cut to the core and I want to experience every part of it... Leaving nothing unrecognized or unappreciated.
 

Chad of the OttomanEmpire

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I hear ya but don't relate to that. Maybe it's the sxness. It must be. But I open a beautiful gift and my heart feels overwhelmed by the beauty... Like cut to the core and I want to experience every part of it... Leaving nothing unrecognized or unappreciated.
That's great! But, I'm talking 7s in general, really (we are not the descriptions, obviously).
 

HongDou

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I hear ya but don't relate to that. Maybe it's the sxness. It must be. But I open a beautiful gift and my heart feels overwhelmed by the beauty... Like cut to the core and I want to experience every part of it... Leaving nothing unrecognized or unappreciated.

Me too! Maybe it's just because I have strong sx too? :D I mean, it could go either way I guess. When I went to see Kelly live for the first time after 11 years of being her fan, I was just out in the audience dancing, singing along with her, having the time of my life. After that I felt completely drained like I had spent all my energy on her, so I told my mom that I wanted to leave before Maroon 5 came on. In this sense I sort of missed an opportunity and only opened the can halfway but I mean come on, she's in my signature, I have a blog about her, I have all of her songs plus some underground albums and unreleased demos on my iPod, how could I not just totally spend all of my energy when she was on stage?
 

Lady_X

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That's great! But, I'm talking 7s in general, really (we are not the descriptions, obviously).

Okay sure yeah it's not all about me fine :tongue:
 

Chad of the OttomanEmpire

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sx/so
I hear ya but don't relate to that. Maybe it's the sxness. It must be. But I open a beautiful gift and my heart feels overwhelmed by the beauty... Like cut to the core and I want to experience every part of it... Leaving nothing unrecognized or unappreciated.

Me too! Maybe it's just because I have strong sx too? :D I mean, it could go either way I guess. When I went to see Kelly live for the first time after 11 years of being her fan, I was just out in the audience dancing, singing along with her, having the time of my life. After that I felt completely drained like I had spent all my energy on her, so I told my mom that I wanted to leave before Maroon 5 came on. In this sense I sort of missed an opportunity and only opened the can halfway but I mean come on, she's in my signature, I have a blog about her, I have all of her songs plus some underground albums and unreleased demos on my iPod, how could I not just totally spend all of my energy when she was on stage?
Hang on, though. If ya'll are talking about immersing yourselves in the experience, I can also relate, and feel extremely fulfilled and grateful. I think it IS sx-ness.

I'm more inclined to be ungrateful when I'm bored in general--there aren't always peak experiences, after all and not putting my energies to use can be extremely depressing.
 
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