4s vs 8s

[Azure Flame]

This sounds like a stupid question

what's the difference between E4 and E8?

Both:
-are big on self expression
-both can numb themselves to pain
-both seek intensity
-both want to stand out
-both grow by learning moderation
-both are reactive

as far as I can tell the only real difference is that 4's are masochistic and 8's are sadistic. One likes to cause pain, the other likes to be in pain.

There seems to be a large influx on my website of INFJ's who claim they are 8's. And its starting to blow my mind. So I'm trying to understand what actually separates an INFJ 8 from an INFJ 4.

I was also going to say that 4's are idealistic... but so am I... I get extremely angry when I see people acting in such a way that would invalidate my belief that heaven still exists on earth.

 

[Lady_X]

My favorite part is this sounds like a stupid question haha

You're funny in a not trying to be funny weird sort of way aren't you.

 

[Azure Flame]

trololo?

with regard to INFJ 8's, I'm trying to understand what actually separates an INFJ 4 from an INFJ 8.

 

[Amargith]

Shame vs anger
Escape to fantasy vs powerbase building in coping with reality
Master of the emotional realm vs master of the physical realm
Evasive vs aggressive
Operates from the heart vs operates from the gut
->mulling over stuff vs quick draw
Perfection driven vs powerdriven
Fear of being broken inherently vs fear of being vulnerable and at someone elses mercy

 

[Lady_X]

trololo?

with regard to INFJ 8's, I'm trying to understand what actually separates an INFJ 4 from an INFJ 8.

Are you seriously asking me if I'm trolling?

Why does it feel like no one takes what I say at face value. Like for real I'm not all passive aggressive n shit. When I insult someone I'm usually pretty clear.

I was actually saying that I thought that was funny.

And that it's funny how some people are really funny without trying to be.

I'm sorry if my phrasing seemed offensive but that's not how I meant it.

Type 4's and 8's feel completely opposite to me.
Type 4's often really detest aggressiveness.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Type 8's detest evasiveness.

 

[Azure Flame]

Type 8's detest evasiveness.

Hmm. I recently spoke with an INFJ 4. She absolutely hates "inauthenticity" which... is pretty much the same damn thing as evasiveness. She'd curse at me whenever I hid something or evaded telling her how I actually felt. It was kind of refreshing.

I suppose, E4 = emotional, E8 = physical, is a good enough generalization. I don't like the idea that 4's are simply "emotional," because that seems to exclude the possibility of 4's as thinkers.

 

[Amargith]

There s a reason 4s and8s are often intrigued by one antoher.


I realize now that when i was talking evasive vs aggressive, i meant in the default physical realm. The opposit is often true in the emotional realm.

Both types will call the other on their bs, in typical reactionary style and if there is mutual respect and trust, both can act as a guide, allowing the other to safely explore a realm normally beyond their reach.

 

[Azure Flame]

My new question is, if 8's are gut types and don't recognize themselves, do 4's have a similar problem recognizing their own needs?

 

[Amargith]

My new question is, if 8's are gut types and don't recognize themselves, do 4's have a similar problem recognizing their own needs?

You mean worldly needs? For my part, yes - very much so. I live in a world of emotional intensity, fantasy and ideas. I forget to eat, drink, sleep, take medication, etc. The only one that can break me out of that world is my partner.

Granted, Im also sp-last so that probably doesn't help.

 

[Elfboy]

Type 8's detest evasiveness.

all reactive types (4s, 6s and 8s) detest evasiveness and will typically go after you if they suspect it (6 more quickly than 4 or 8, as 4 is more withdrawn and 8 less responsive)

@OP
in either case, the 4 or 8 in question is almost certainly an Sx dom, as So and Sp 4s don't look anything like 8s and Sp and So 8s don't look anything like 4s.
the main differences I've noticed are
1) 8s are severely out of touch with the majority of their emotions, typically giving off a somewhat glazed over vibe that says "I don't give a shit"; 4s have an abundance of emotions which they will express in all sorts of ways and need to reflect on frequently.
2) many 4s have a woe-is-me, victim playing mindset. on the other hand, 8s have a much more "bad guy" demeanor (even the well meaning ones)
3) 4s have an inferior complex; 8s have a superiority complex
4) 8s are much more physical; 4s are more disconnected from their gut.
5) 8's aggression is more predictable; 4's aggression is typically sporadic and hard to predict.
6) 4s, even the more aggressive ones have a delicate quality to them; 8s are about as delicate as a silver back gorilla

 

[rav3n]

Fours desire above all else, to be special snowflakes. Eights know they're special snowflakes whether they are or not.

 

[Animal]

[MENTION=10984]DJ Arendee[/MENTION]

I don't think it's a stupid question at all. I'm a 4 who mistyped at 8 for many months, and not for lack of self-awareness or lack of in-depth knowledge about enneagram. It was tough for me to tease apart, personally.

I'll elaborate on the distinctions that cleared it up for me personally when I have a minute.

 

[Animal]

Fours desire above all else, to be special snowflakes. Eights know they're special snowflakes whether they are or not.

I don't agree with this. I was painfully aware that I was different since before I had a vocabulary to say the word "me." I've never worried about being unique or tried.. if anything I've tried to find common ground and ultimately the closer I get to someone, I fail. They are not from my planet and I'm not from theirs; that's what it always boils down to. I can't manage to meet basic human expectations, even though I excel at alien crafts. I build up these skills in an effort to reenact my home planet and bring it to Earth so I can enjoy my time here. Life is art and art is life; this is the only way I feel closer to home. Sometimes the expression of this yearning to go home attracts people who I suspect are from my home planet until ultimately I lose them to my own autonomy addiction and go on one too many solo missions to Planet Animal.

It's statements like "4s desire to be special snowflakes" which confused me and caused me to mistype at 8. In fact 4s know they are different and the holy idea is Holy Origin, which is a feeling that all things are connected and we are part of everything. This is the holy connectivity that I seek and that brings me peace.

At my darkest hour, I wrote two statements which were both true:

1. “Everyone else is lost and I, alone, am found.”
2. “Alone, we are All Øne.”

This is the paradox that haunts me throughout my life. And whichever side you choose, I end up alone.

 

[James W]

This sounds like a stupid question

what's the difference between E4 and E8?

Both:
-are big on self expression
-both can numb themselves to pain
-both seek intensity
-both want to stand out
-both grow by learning moderation
-both are reactive

as far as I can tell the only real difference is that 4's are masochistic and 8's are sadistic. One likes to cause pain, the other likes to be in pain.

There seems to be a large influx on my website of INFJ's who claim they are 8's. And its starting to blow my mind. So I'm trying to understand what actually separates an INFJ 8 from an INFJ 4.

I was also going to say that 4's are idealistic... but so am I... I get extremely angry when I see people acting in such a way that would invalidate my belief that heaven still exists on earth.

Really interesting thread. The similarities between the two types has been on my mind for quite some time now.

I've always had a morbid fascination with 8s. Some of the best mentors I've had in life have probably been healthy 8s in retrospect. Strange how both types seem at the opposite end of the spectrum from each other but at the same time, that shared desire to conquer themselves and prove to the world that they're a worthy opponent is pretty fucking romantic.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of 8s had a 4 dormant inside of them and vice versa if you're a believer in tri types.

And that belief that Heaven exists on Earth? There's beauty in there that weighs close to a 4's mindset.

My new question is, if 8's are gut types and don't recognize themselves, do 4's have a similar problem recognizing their own needs?

4's could benefit from taking better care of themselves, if not, they put themselves at risk of becoming smothering and passive, pushing all their ambitions to one side to benefit the needs of trivial matters. If they stopped listening to Explosions in The Sky for all hours of the day and realized this won't help the long term plan of becoming an awesome person, they might actually gain some respect for themselves and stop caring so much whether their life has any value or not. I speak only out of my own personal experience of course. Every 4's got their own story to tell.

Fours desire above all else, to be special snowflakes. Eights know they're special snowflakes whether they are or not.

Sums it up pretty well to be honest.

 

[Haven]

8s don't think they're special snowflakes, they know that no one is and anyone that thinks they are is just fooling themselves.

 

[Azure Flame]

You mean worldly needs? For my part, yes - very much so. I live in a world of emotional intensity, fantasy and ideas. I forget to eat, drink, sleep, take medication, etc. The only one that can break me out of that world is my partner.

Granted, Im also sp-last so that probably doesn't help.

Needs as in, the self. I am an empty vessel. It seems like 4s are overflowing, but I don't know if that is a facade or not. I feel like both types inflate themselves and when they meet they both exhaust each other until they are both deflated and itty bitty. At least that's my experience.

I've been trying to figure out how to make good trance, and I'm starting to think all my favorite djs are 4s and able to express themselves, as opposed t me where I have trouple detecting how I feel to the point that I can't produce anything.

 

[Azure Flame]

Hmm... I never viewed myself as a special snowflake, but it would seem I naturally am

 

[Azure Flame]

[MENTION=10984]DJ Arendee[/MENTION]

I don't think it's a stupid question at all. I'm a 4 who mistyped at 8 for many months, and not for lack of self-awareness or lack of in-depth knowledge about enneagram. It was tough for me to tease apart, personally.

I'll elaborate on the distinctions that cleared it up for me personally when I have a minute.

Yes, the reason I ask is because I discover more and more about myself, it sounds 4ish. Its almost like I am fighting a fear of insignificance all the time. When I first lost my position as a fighter pilot I thought, "but what will I be known for?"

I also frequently ponder what I will have accomplished before death, and I thus fight to accomplish as much as I can, and use this life to its fullest.

I am very aware of what I want, and never what I feel. I think I'm kind of an emotional vacuum, which I could say makes me 8, but I also often feel like 4s often feel numb to their emotions as well, despite a heavy emotional shell.

 

[small.wonder]

I am very aware of what I want, and never what I feel. I think I'm kind of an emotional vacuum, which I could say makes me 8, but I also often feel like 4s often feel numb to their emotions as well, despite a heavy emotional shell.

I don't know that we are numb to our emotions really, more like intoxicated by them. I am always aware of my emotions and when they get strong (light or dark) I indulge in them. It's like a strong wind: 8 would stand against it pretending it's not there, a 4 would stand against it and drink it in-- all the rush and sound and strength of it. What you may see as a 4 being numb to emotion is probably just a bitter familiarity with pain and anguish. There is a large difference between that (4), and refusing to acknowledge the pain at all (8).