Just some thoughts on the topic...
I don't know how integrating from 1 to 4 looks like, but I know what it looks like the other way around. Through my teenage years I was an E4 at the core and then went to 1 as a core. My tritype was 461 back then, so the 1 was always there, but not easy nor hard to see. I noticed the 1 in me far less than the 4 and 6 however. Somehow my core turned into 1 through young adulthood and now I'm a 146.
I think the differences are quite big and I believe it's got more positives to go from 4 to 1 then the other way around, although most Ennea-pages tell you 4s go to 1 when they're stressed. I don't know about that since my core shifted from 4 to 1, so I'm mostly in my 1-behaviour now, even when relaxed. Back when I was a teenager I'd go to 1 when stressed or feeling comfortable. So the message 4 -> 1 when stressed doesn't seem to apply always...
I must add I'd also wish for a deeper analysis of the 1. The 1 is portrayed as this person who's obsessed with ethics. Aside from that we're often described as strict and critical and these few attributes make us seem like a caricature rather than a real person. There's more to a 1. I can only agree with what @sulfit said here:
Can't agree with the next quote, however. But that may just be me:
While I am not easily satisified with my efforts and the results of my work and I do have moments when I can't stop my perfectionism although it's about to drive me mad, I am totally aware of my self-flagellation. At least when you have a 4 in your tritype, it should be extremely easy to notice. I know what I used to be like - 4's are way more hedonistic and indulgent - nowadays I'm not and it's easy to recognize. Total difference in .. well, discipline I find. (And competence and higher set of standards, you get the gist).
Last quote:
1s don't internalize the rejection or mistreatment they recieve from others as a reflection upon themselves (unless they feel they've violated one of their principles). The aggressor is always in the wrong in their eyes. This isn't to say that 4s are doormats, but there's often a part of them that confirms, or loosely identifies with the negative judgments of others.
That's not always true. Most of the time, yeah. Because we realize other peoples behaviour isn't about us. That's a common realization I've read online a lot of 1 make along the way. I wonder how come. It's weird.
The aggressor isn't always wrong, however. That's far off from how 1s cooperate during conflict and criticism. There's a thread here on TypoC too where a lot of 1's told the same story... they don't like getting angry before being sure whatever caused the conflict and criticism wasn't their fault. It's about examining what's the issue, getting to the bottom of it and doing the right thing, meaning, apologising if neccessary.
So much for perfectionism... it's a rather unpleasant process cause when there's a really huge conflict you break your head over the issue and spend so much time thinking. Thinking, thinking, thinking... and you don't stop not until you've found the issue and understand it %100.![]()
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10-15-2017, 11:34 AM #11Scheiss di net an.
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10-15-2017, 01:18 PM #12
I didn't understand 1s too well when I made this thread, so take my comments on them with a boulder of salt.
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10-15-2017, 02:08 PM #13
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To me 4's and 1's are very easy to differentiate, even accounting for their health levels. They have stuff in common sure, but their MO's are very different.
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01-29-2019, 01:00 PM #14
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01-29-2019, 01:54 PM #15
I haven't read as much Enneagram as MBTI, but I understand that E1s are perfectionists while E4s are about significance and originality. Perhaps the difference relates to the underlying assumptions about what achieves significance. If there is more of a focus on an internalized concept of perfection then perhaps that is more E1 and if the internal focus is more on uniqueness, then perhaps that is more E4. Is it about the most ideal way something is done or about the most true-to-self original way it is done?
My life focuses on the creative arts, and while I have a type of internal ideal to match, it isn't about perfection, but about accurately conveying the authenticity of the idea. I would rather compose a structurally mutated sonata myself rather than play the most exquisite one by Beethoven to agreed upon perfection. Also, when others perform my music, I'm very flexible about what happens - much less so than my peers. I like to see the originality, however flawed, of others blend into the mix. Perfection is oppressive to me and can eradicate uniqueness in my perception of it.bunny omi
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01-29-2019, 02:01 PM #16
I know that this guy is supposedly an expert, but he doesn't understand Enneagram 4. When I watched this video, i thought he was actually describing an E1 and not an E4 at times, except for the darkness and pain aspect of it. I did find some of his comments offensive when he assumes dismissal about making tragedy worse than it is because I think most people's lives are tragic but most are trained to pretend it isn't. He says the reason most artists live in the poor part of town is because they enjoy it - he's a bit mentally challenged in this regard because most artists don't make much money.
It is his applied examples that sometimes seem off to me. When he describes the lady with the contrasting scarf to articulate a little uniqueness 5:48, and the need for E4s to arrange their furniture a certain way, I thought, no, he's talking about aesthetic perfection and not E4 aesthetics at all.
I'd be curious what others think. Is this video a good example of E1 mistaken as E4 at least in parts of the description?
bunny omi
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01-29-2019, 04:24 PM #17
Yah, I relate to the competence element and lack of emotional exuberance, ha. I try to keep the criticality in check and tend not to like to micro-manage or nag, but I'm definitely judging inside (ha). And, I have shared before that I do have pride.
And, just as you wrote, I have previously typed as both 5 and 4. Almost 9, as I do relate to a fair amount of it as well. Regarding 4, I suppose I haven't been my 'optimal' self for a good chunk of my life, so it may be why I identified so strongly with 4 and also have spent quite a lot of time in my inner world/emotions/etc -- thus, identified with much of what was written of 4. However based on new understandings I have of both types, it appears I have always been just as (or actually quite more) fixated on 'others' and judgments towards them, analyses, etc, and not totally re myself and my own lackings; my anger and such has very notably been towards others. For better or for worse. (Don't get me wrong -- I can get very angry and direct the same judgments towards myself as well; but not in the same way that a 4 appears to do).
Re the perfectionist bit, though... honestly maybe I've let that go, or let it go a while ago. I am not someone who is unable to relax - I can be quite good at relaxing- or to find something 'good enough'. I can let those things go. otoh, I do need to be pleased with my output. I know if it's not 'perfect' but I also know when that's ok and 90% is just fine.
"...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce
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01-29-2019, 07:17 PM #18”We know a little about a lot of things; just enough to make us dangerous.”
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01-29-2019, 07:19 PM #19
1000% untrue. This is literally what disintegrating to 4 is like for 1s - feeling like whatever’s gone wrong is their fault, because it’s ALWAYS their fault, and they fail at achieving their ideals ALL THE TIME.
I agree with earlier posts in this thread, that the core differences have to do with baseline level of perfection and judgment. Even at my most disintegrated to 4, I look very collected on the outside, and the only outside evidence that something is wrong is all the little details that have fallen apart, that I would usually care deeply about maintaining. Different for everyone, but for me, things become untidy, I become habitually late for things, and I stop replying to people’s texts - or take forever to. I don’t think 4s usually put so much stake in those details for their own sake. They’d care about them for their significance, more personally and more broadly, and unrelated to the basic 1 philosophy of “perfection at all costs”. Because frankly, “perfection at all costs” is not interesting*.
*This is my 4 trifix talking, lol.”We know a little about a lot of things; just enough to make us dangerous.”
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01-29-2019, 07:41 PM #20✦ᏖᏒᎥᎮ ค ℓιɬɬℓɛ Ꮭıɠɧɬ ʄคŋɬคʂɬıƈ✦ -: ✦ :-❋ ƒ O ᖇ G E ᗪ I ᑎ ƒ I ᖇ E ❋-: ✦ :-★ᴅᴏɴ'ᴛ ꜰᴇᴇᴅ ᴛʜᴇ ᴇᴇʟꜱ★
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