Actual 4 vs. 1 disintegrating to 4

[IBleedPumpkinJuice]

Just some thoughts on the topic...

I don't know how integrating from 1 to 4 looks like, but I know what it looks like the other way around. Through my teenage years I was an E4 at the core and then went to 1 as a core. My tritype was 461 back then, so the 1 was always there, but not easy nor hard to see. I noticed the 1 in me far less than the 4 and 6 however. Somehow my core turned into 1 through young adulthood and now I'm a 146.

I think the differences are quite big and I believe it's got more positives to go from 4 to 1 then the other way around, although most Ennea-pages tell you 4s go to 1 when they're stressed. I don't know about that since my core shifted from 4 to 1, so I'm mostly in my 1-behaviour now, even when relaxed. Back when I was a teenager I'd go to 1 when stressed or feeling comfortable. So the message 4 -> 1 when stressed doesn't seem to apply always...

I must add I'd also wish for a deeper analysis of the 1. The 1 is portrayed as this person who's obsessed with ethics. Aside from that we're often described as strict and critical and these few attributes make us seem like a caricature rather than a real person. There's more to a 1. I can only agree with what @sulfit said here:

In contrast to 4s, 1s display more competence-based intolerance towards others: they have a perception of the way things should be or could be better, and other people aren't doing anything to improve them, or even making things worse. For 1s this perception incites an intolerant and critical attitude towards other people. 1s are close to 2s in the enneagram, and pridefulness is an issues for both to some extent. This is something that actual 4s don't have. 4s display emotional exuberance and indulgence that 1s rarely engage in, while 1s don't care as much about their image.

Can't agree with the next quote, however. But that may just be me:

One thing I get from his material is that types on the lower half of the enneagram are more ego-dystonic (painfully over-aware of their pattern), while he describes 1 as ego-syntonic. I wonder if that could make it difficult, like it was for your friend, for some 1's to hit on their true type.

I'm imagining someone reading about the moral discipline of the 1 in books and thinking they must be anything but that type because due to their extreme standards for themselves that they can only fall far short of, they feel inside like they are just barely in control. Maybe they'd choose themselves a type known for being more impulsive or more emotionally driven, unaware that their definition of "impulsive" differs wildly in scope from what the authors and healthy people in general tend to mean by that. Meanwhile everyone else around them does see a disciplined and a very self-constrained person. That person just can't see it in themselves. "I'm not critical...if anything, I'm too easy!"

While I am not easily satisified with my efforts and the results of my work and I do have moments when I can't stop my perfectionism although it's about to drive me mad, I am totally aware of my self-flagellation. At least when you have a 4 in your tritype, it should be extremely easy to notice. I know what I used to be like - 4's are way more hedonistic and indulgent - nowadays I'm not and it's easy to recognize. Total difference in .. well, discipline I find. (And competence and higher set of standards, you get the gist).

Last quote:

1s don't internalize the rejection or mistreatment they recieve from others as a reflection upon themselves (unless they feel they've violated one of their principles). The aggressor is always in the wrong in their eyes. This isn't to say that 4s are doormats, but there's often a part of them that confirms, or loosely identifies with the negative judgments of others.

That's not always true. Most of the time, yeah. Because we realize other peoples behaviour isn't about us. That's a common realization I've read online a lot of 1 make along the way. I wonder how come. It's weird.
The aggressor isn't always wrong, however. That's far off from how 1s cooperate during conflict and criticism. There's a thread here on TypoC too where a lot of 1's told the same story... they don't like getting angry before being sure whatever caused the conflict and criticism wasn't their fault. It's about examining what's the issue, getting to the bottom of it and doing the right thing, meaning, apologising if neccessary.
So much for perfectionism... it's a rather unpleasant process cause when there's a really huge conflict you break your head over the issue and spend so much time thinking. Thinking, thinking, thinking... and you don't stop not until you've found the issue and understand it %100.

[Galena]

I didn't understand 1s too well when I made this thread, so take my comments on them with a boulder of salt.

[Hard]

To me 4's and 1's are very easy to differentiate, even accounting for their health levels. They have stuff in common sure, but their MO's are very different.

[misfortuneteller]

I want to bump up this thread...

this is interesting to me and I never thought it was possible to mix them up.

I second this. @cascadeco

[Ravenetta]

I haven't read as much Enneagram as MBTI, but I understand that E1s are perfectionists while E4s are about significance and originality. Perhaps the difference relates to the underlying assumptions about what achieves significance. If there is more of a focus on an internalized concept of perfection then perhaps that is more E1 and if the internal focus is more on uniqueness, then perhaps that is more E4. Is it about the most ideal way something is done or about the most true-to-self original way it is done?

My life focuses on the creative arts, and while I have a type of internal ideal to match, it isn't about perfection, but about accurately conveying the authenticity of the idea. I would rather compose a structurally mutated sonata myself rather than play the most exquisite one by Beethoven to agreed upon perfection. Also, when others perform my music, I'm very flexible about what happens - much less so than my peers. I like to see the originality, however flawed, of others blend into the mix. Perfection is oppressive to me and can eradicate uniqueness in my perception of it.

[Ravenetta]

I know that this guy is supposedly an expert, but he doesn't understand Enneagram 4. When I watched this video, i thought he was actually describing an E1 and not an E4 at times, except for the darkness and pain aspect of it. I did find some of his comments offensive when he assumes dismissal about making tragedy worse than it is because I think most people's lives are tragic but most are trained to pretend it isn't. He says the reason most artists live in the poor part of town is because they enjoy it - he's a bit mentally challenged in this regard because most artists don't make much money.

It is his applied examples that sometimes seem off to me. When he describes the lady with the contrasting scarf to articulate a little uniqueness 5:48, and the need for E4s to arrange their furniture a certain way, I thought, no, he's talking about aesthetic perfection and not E4 aesthetics at all.

I'd be curious what others think. Is this video a good example of E1 mistaken as E4 at least in parts of the description?

[cascadeco]

1s typing into 4s and 5w4s is common. I've had a 1w9s friend who typed into 9 and 6 before coming to realize that he's 1w9. The reason being that 1s are one of the most flatly and negatively stereotyped types in the enneagram. Those 1s who aren't as OCD, rigid, and "moralistic" as the profiles portray them simply cannot associate with such profiles. They think "I simply cannot be this way!" and then type themselves into 5s or 4s or 9s with more attractive descriptions.

In contrast to 4s, 1s display more competence-based intolerance towards others: they have a perception of the way things should be or could be better, and other people aren't doing anything to improve them, or even making things worse. For 1s this perception incites an intolerant and critical attitude towards other people. 1s are close to 2s in the enneagram, and pridefulness is an issues for both to some extent. This is something that actual 4s don't have. 4s display emotional exuberance and indulgence that 1s rarely engage in, while 1s don't care as much about their image.

Another thing that is useful in telling the two apart is health levels:
Levels of Development

And Naranjo's description from Character and Neurosis:
Type 1: [Enneagram Type 1] Naaranjo's Character and Neurosis: Anger and Perfectionism
Type 4: [Enneagram Type 4] Naranjo's Character and Neurosis: Ennea-Type 4

Yah, I relate to the competence element and lack of emotional exuberance, ha. I try to keep the criticality in check and tend not to like to micro-manage or nag, but I'm definitely judging inside (ha). And, I have shared before that I do have pride.

And, just as you wrote, I have previously typed as both 5 and 4. Almost 9, as I do relate to a fair amount of it as well. Regarding 4, I suppose I haven't been my 'optimal' self for a good chunk of my life, so it may be why I identified so strongly with 4 and also have spent quite a lot of time in my inner world/emotions/etc -- thus, identified with much of what was written of 4. However based on new understandings I have of both types, it appears I have always been just as (or actually quite more) fixated on 'others' and judgments towards them, analyses, etc, and not totally re myself and my own lackings; my anger and such has very notably been towards others. For better or for worse. (Don't get me wrong -- I can get very angry and direct the same judgments towards myself as well; but not in the same way that a 4 appears to do).

Re the perfectionist bit, though... honestly maybe I've let that go, or let it go a while ago. I am not someone who is unable to relax - I can be quite good at relaxing - or to find something 'good enough'. I can let those things go. otoh, I do need to be pleased with my output. I know if it's not 'perfect' but I also know when that's ok and 90% is just fine.

[EJCC]

One thing I get from his material is that types on the lower half of the enneagram are more ego-dystonic (painfully over-aware of their pattern), while he describes 1 as ego-syntonic. I wonder if that could make it difficult, like it was for your friend, for some 1's to hit on their true type.

I'm imagining someone reading about the moral discipline of the 1 in books and thinking they must be anything but that type because due to their extreme standards for themselves that they can only fall far short of, they feel inside like they are just barely in control. Maybe they'd choose themselves a type known for being more impulsive or more emotionally driven, unaware that their definition of "impulsive" differs wildly in scope from what the authors and healthy people in general tend to mean by that. Meanwhile everyone else around them does see a disciplined and a very self-constrained person. That person just can't see it in themselves. "I'm not critical...if anything, I'm too easy!"

I typed as a 6 for a while because I identified more with being stressed all the time than with achieving perfection. Lol turns out self pres 1 is both of those things.

[EJCC]

1s don't internalize the rejection or mistreatment they recieve from others as a reflection upon themselves (unless they feel they've violated one of their principles). The aggressor is always in the wrong in their eyes.

1000% untrue. This is literally what disintegrating to 4 is like for 1s - feeling like whatever’s gone wrong is their fault, because it’s ALWAYS their fault, and they fail at achieving their ideals ALL THE TIME.

I agree with earlier posts in this thread, that the core differences have to do with baseline level of perfection and judgment. Even at my most disintegrated to 4, I look very collected on the outside, and the only outside evidence that something is wrong is all the little details that have fallen apart, that I would usually care deeply about maintaining. Different for everyone, but for me, things become untidy, I become habitually late for things, and I stop replying to people’s texts - or take forever to. I don’t think 4s usually put so much stake in those details for their own sake. They’d care about them for their significance, more personally and more broadly, and unrelated to the basic 1 philosophy of “perfection at all costs”. Because frankly, “perfection at all costs” is not interesting*.


*This is my 4 trifix talking, lol.

[Luminous]

1000% untrue. This is literally what disintegrating to 4 is like for 1s - feeling like whatever’s gone wrong is their fault, because it’s ALWAYS their fault, and they fail at achieving their ideals ALL THE TIME.

I agree with earlier posts in this thread, that the core differences have to do with baseline level of perfection and judgment. Even at my most disintegrated to 4, I look very collected on the outside, and the only outside evidence that something is wrong is all the little details that have fallen apart, that I would usually care deeply about maintaining. Different for everyone, but for me, things become untidy, I become habitually late for things, and I stop replying to people’s texts - or take forever to. I don’t think 4s usually put so much stake in those details for their own sake. They’d care about them for their significance, more personally and more broadly, and unrelated to the basic 1 philosophy of “perfection at all costs”. Because frankly, “perfection at all costs” is not interesting*.


*This is my 4 trifix talking, lol.

Do you find that your mood is significantly affected when you are disintegrating to 4? Do you take on the whole in love with your sadness sort of feeling?