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Enneagram 4....or 9?

pinkgraffiti

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at this point, would it be too outlandish to also consider 3w4? everyone is noting how she's so social blah blah. maybe the 9 is just a disintegration point? (and you would all be sensing 6 - which i never did - because it's the integration point)!?? this would tie in nicely with her latest test result and with my intuition that she's in the heart triad. and she could have a strong 4 wing, which would explain some things.
 

Mal12345

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That's a great point!

Being Borderline would make someone seem 4ish.... I think 6 is a good call though.

Would you call integration/disintegration a CHANGE? I mean, doesn't your core type stay the same?

I don't "believe" in tri-fixes or tri-type though. I think core type with its lines & wings explains it all.

Integration/disintegration is a type change. The idea of stress/relaxation points, however, does not imply change, because stress and relaxation are temporary moods.

As for tritypes/fixes, I didn't believed in the theory at first. But studying the theory for a long time converted me over. The fact of the matter as it now stands is that the original enneagram doesn't explain enough. It's an observable fact that people evince qualities that don't follow the lines. Consider my own wife, whom I studied intently at first. I thought she was a 6w7, but she turned out to be a 9w8. 9 and 6 are related by a line, but her 6 traits aren't explained by stress or relaxation. She also shows some 4 traits, and this definitely doesn't follow the lines on the enneagram. She's a 964, or more accurately, 9w8>6w7>4w3.

Notice that her wing types (873) are all assertive types, while the main types (964) are relatively non-assertive, compliant or withdrawn. She is Supine-Choleric, and has a definite "split personality" going on that is inwardly conflicted. Part of her wants to run free with the party animals (8), while another part of her wants to stay home and take care of the cubs (9).

Also, Borderline Personality Disorder is not correlated with any specific e-type.
 

pinkgraffiti

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^yeah ok. anyway, you don't need to go ahead with your borderline theories and/or other, because i can guarantee you that my girlfriend is a perfectly healthy, well-rounded and well-developed human being. she knows herself very well, has taken a long path of self-study to reach self-awareness and is perfectly amiable with other human beings and the like. :) ....I, on the other hand... lol

PS: we have now reached page 7 on this thread and i wonder if the title (4...9 - 7) is trying to tell me something lol
 

Mal12345

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^yeah ok. anyway, you don't need to go ahead with your borderline theories and/or other, because i can guarantee you that my girlfriend is a perfectly healthy, well-rounded and well-developed human being. she knows herself very well, has taken a long path of self-study to reach self-awareness and is perfectly amiable with other human beings and the like. :) ....I, on the other hand... lol

You said all those activities were in the past, and I added to that by saying that it's something that is outgrown and not related to type. So she outgrew it. I won't be hanging around here if I'm going to be completely misunderstood each time I post or if I am accused of dealing out theories.
 

Seymour

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Also, Borderline Personality Disorder is not correlated with any specific e-type.

Riso and Hudson associate enneagram types with DSM categories, associated BPD with 4 and 6. They associate 5s with schizotypal and schizoid.

While I don't know if Riso and Hudson's associations are accurate, I would find it surprising if there were no correlation between personality disorders and enneagram type (given that both are associated with unhealthy defense mechanisms of various kinds). Why do you think BPD would be equally likely for any enneagram type?
 

pinkgraffiti

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You said all those activities were in the past, and I added to that by saying that it's something that is outgrown and not related to type. So she outgrew it. I won't be hanging around here if I'm going to be completely misunderstood each time I post or if I am accused of dealing out theories.

oi, you're sensitive... no, sorry i didn't notice.

anyway, i'm still hoping that you'll explain your theories to me. of course if you dont want to, you can also leave.
 

Mal12345

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Riso and Hudson associate enneagram types with DSM categories, associated BPD with 4 and 6. They associate 5s with schizotypal and schizoid.

While I don't know if Riso and Hudson's associations are accurate, I would find it surprising if there were no correlation between personality disorders and enneagram type (given that both are associated with unhealthy defense mechanisms of various kinds). Why do you think BPD would be equally likely for any enneagram type?

Thanks, in the last thing I read from Riso he said that BPD has no correlation with any enneagram type. But the chart at the link provides a much more detailed and excellent view of this. He must have changed his mind.
 

Mal12345

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oi, you're sensitive... no, sorry i didn't notice.

anyway, i'm still hoping that you'll explain your theories to me. of course if you dont want to, you can also leave.

My mind doesn't revolve around pure theories and speculations all day long. I like theories and I like reality, and particularly, a theory that reveals itself to be true in reality.

The instinctuals page I sent you is highly respected across these personality type forums. I started with the page on etype 4 instinctuals so you can either confirm type 4 as her type or reject it there, whatever you wish to do.

That site, by the way, is how I determined my own instinctual stacking.
 

pinkgraffiti

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My mind doesn't revolve around pure theories and speculations all day long. I like theories and I like reality, and particularly, a theory that reveals itself to be true in reality.

The instinctuals page I sent you is highly respected across these personality type forums. I started with the page on etype 4 instinctuals so you can either confirm type 4 as her type or reject it there, whatever you wish to do.

That site, by the way, is how I determined my own instinctual stacking.

ok, let's see. first of all, i also have access to the internet, so thank you for that site, but that's not why i created this thread.

i created this thread because i was hoping to find other people's (educated) opinions. i based myself on people that might understand, from experience, what it is like to be a type 4, what it is like to be a type 9, or what it is like to be me, the messenger (which is why i got another 478 tritype member).

you are giving me a cool suggestion, which is to consult a "specialist" (still unproved, but ok, i'll take it). at this point, if you want to contribute, please explain to me, a mere mortal, what i need to know about the enneagram to make a decision on my girlfriends type OR give me your own "specialist" opinion.

but please respect my place as the only person here that knows my girlfriend, ie as the real-life messenger, when i tell you that you dont need to investigate one part (this case mental illness) or another. same for talking about things that are completely unrelated to the goal of this thread. thanks.
 

Mal12345

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Riso and Hudson associate enneagram types with DSM categories, associated BPD with 4 and 6. They associate 5s with schizotypal and schizoid.

While I don't know if Riso and Hudson's associations are accurate, I would find it surprising if there were no correlation between personality disorders and enneagram type (given that both are associated with unhealthy defense mechanisms of various kinds). Why do you think BPD would be equally likely for any enneagram type?

Part of the problem may be that the BPD description in the DSM is a bad way to try diagnosing BPD. The description itself is so non-descript that it can apply to many types - and that's exactly what Riso said in his book Personality Types (444).
 

Mal12345

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ok, let's see. first of all, i also have access to the internet, so thank you for that site, but that's not why i created this thread.

i created this thread because i was hoping to find other people's (educated) opinions. i based myself on people that might understand, from experience, what it is like to be a type 4, what it is like to be a type 9, or what it is like to be me, the messenger (which is why i got another 478 tritype member).

you are giving me a cool suggestion, which is to consult a "specialist" (still unproved, but ok, i'll take it). at this point, if you want to contribute, please explain to me, a mere mortal, what i need to know about the enneagram to make a decision on my girlfriends type OR give me your own "specialist" opinion.

but please respect my place as the only person here that knows my girlfriend, ie as the real-life messenger, when i tell you that you dont need to investigate one part (this case mental illness) or another. same for talking about things that are completely unrelated to the goal of this thread. thanks.

Geez, I better take a hike before she calls the mod squad!
 

pinkgraffiti

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Geez, I better take a hike before she calls the mod squad!

no no, don't worry, i like to sort my shit 1-1. also, i'm not really angry at all, just hoping that you don't get angry and that us two understand each other and get along :)
 

OrangeAppled

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Integration/disintegration is a type change. The idea of stress/relaxation points, however, does not imply change, because stress and relaxation are temporary moods.

Hm, I don't really agree with that. What's the point in becoming another type? What is the system describing then?
Integration is an expanding of the ego, IMO, which is adopting thinking & behaviors associated with other types which lessen the fixations. Disintegration is a narrowing of the ego where the fixation becomes more restrictive & extreme through the exacerbation of thinking/behaviors associated with other types.
In theory, you could transcend the ego, but I don't really think it's possible in reality. Even if you did, then you'd be NO type, but free of all the fixations & passions.

As for tritypes/fixes, I didn't believed in the theory at first. But studying the theory for a long time converted me over. The fact of the matter as it now stands is that the original enneagram doesn't explain enough. It's an observable fact that people evince qualities that don't follow the lines. Consider my own wife, whom I studied intently at first. I thought she was a 6w7, but she turned out to be a 9w8. 9 and 6 are related by a line, but her 6 traits aren't explained by stress or relaxation. She also shows some 4 traits, and this definitely doesn't follow the lines on the enneagram. She's a 964, or more accurately, 9w8>6w7>4w3.

Notice that her wing types (873) are all assertive types, while the main types (964) are relatively non-assertive, compliant or withdrawn. She is Supine-Choleric, and has a definite "split personality" going on that is inwardly conflicted. Part of her wants to run free with the party animals (8), while another part of her wants to stay home and take care of the cubs (9).

I think this is too much focus on behavior - which is exactly why you cannot explain everything with type.
Since types display some traits of their integration/disintegration points when average, that easily explains a 9 & 6 connection. Many types can have certain visible traits in common, but the reason for it varies, which is exactly why people sometimes have trouble typing.... Then if you bring Jungian cognitive functions into it, it would also explain why some 9s & 4s may look similar (both happen to be Fi-dom). What you might be seeing is Fi, not e4, and this counters some Si-ish aspects of e9 profiles.

Basically, your core type & its wings & their integration/disintegration points connect you to all other types anyway. That's more useful in helping you grasp how the fixations/passions of the other types tend to crop up in your own psychology, IMO.


Also, Borderline Personality Disorder is not correlated with any specific e-type.

Naranjo associated it with e4 (basically, something a very unhealthy 4 might develop), but I don't think individuals necessarily follow how their type tends to "break down".

----

[MENTION=13377]pinkgraffiti[/MENTION]
I suscribe to the school of thought which sees instincts as manifesting through the lens of the core fixation. So an sp 4 is self-preserving through the fixation of being insignificant/defective & their passion for envy. It's more about an attitude and demeanor than literal focus. So the sp-dom 4 is the most contained 4 - "suffering in silence", tenacious in "enduring", masochistic or self-punishing for their sense of defectiveness. Other authors describe this 4 as "dauntless" which I tend to interpret as an indulgence to "self-soothe" their disappointments. I find these two concepts go hand-in-hand, as this indulgence is a way of being autonomous - you're not crying out to be fulfilled by a savior, but in denial of need & envy & using indulgence to fill your own voids. This is a masochistic cycle of shame & denial. There's a strong connection to e1 here.
In the more literal sense, the sp-dom 4 is focused on autonomy, soothing themselves with indulgence in luxury and beauty and novelty, other times becoming restrictive/ascetic in some ways, & keeping people at a distance to not threaten their emotional well-being. This is not about security or practicality, but certainly a "taking care of oneself", but in a more emotional way. But this "taking care of" can get distorted. I imagine very unhealthy sp 4s might be prone to stuff like eating disorders or self-mutilation. It becomes destructive.
 

pinkgraffiti

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*bump*
hey! just wanted to tell you that i've thought a lot about this, talked a lot with my girlfriend, discussed MBTI and the enneagram with her, made her research into it as well etc.
we both agree - she's vehement - that's she's 4w3. and an INFP.
regarding the instincts, when she reads the general descriptions, she's quite certain she's sp/sx, but if she reads the instinct descriptions specific for enneagram 4, she thinks she's sp/so. anyway, Sp seems to be dominant (and i agree with that too, i think I'm Sx/Sp and she Sp/Sx).
.....that's all folks! thanks for everyone's help!

thats-all-folks_163.gif
 

Standuble

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Is she more like a Jedi or a Sith? AFAIK 9 & 1 are the enneagrams of the Jedi Order's ideology whilst 4 & 3 are the enneagrams of the Sith ideology.
 

pinkgraffiti

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[MENTION=13377]pinkgraffiti[/MENTION]
I suscribe to the school of thought which sees instincts as manifesting through the lens of the core fixation. So an sp 4 is self-preserving through the fixation of being insignificant/defective & their passion for envy. It's more about an attitude and demeanor than literal focus. So the sp-dom 4 is the most contained 4 - "suffering in silence", tenacious in "enduring", masochistic or self-punishing for their sense of defectiveness. Other authors describe this 4 as "dauntless" which I tend to interpret as an indulgence to "self-soothe" their disappointments. I find these two concepts go hand-in-hand, as this indulgence is a way of being autonomous - you're not crying out to be fulfilled by a savior, but in denial of need & envy & using indulgence to fill your own voids. This is a masochistic cycle of shame & denial. There's a strong connection to e1 here.
In the more literal sense, the sp-dom 4 is focused on autonomy, soothing themselves with indulgence in luxury and beauty and novelty, other times becoming restrictive/ascetic in some ways, & keeping people at a distance to not threaten their emotional well-being. This is not about security or practicality, but certainly a "taking care of oneself", but in a more emotional way. But this "taking care of" can get distorted. I imagine very unhealthy sp 4s might be prone to stuff like eating disorders or self-mutilation. It becomes destructive.

my girlfriend read this and says it's completely right!!
 
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