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The Hardest Type to be in The Enneagram

Seymour

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The following sounds amazingly like my 5w6 sp partner is many ways.

So, 5s, how does someone who loves a 5 reach out to them and make it across that distance still being able to keep their own priorities somewhat?

My dad - he's either 6/5 or 5/6, very much in the middle - once shared in the middle of a painful family breakdown that he does feel lonely and isolated sometimes, but the difficulty is that he's rarely willing to reach out to us on our terms. He's an INTP, sp/sx, and had a somewhat painful childhood. I love and respect him and want to make him happy, but at the same time, he's kind of hard to get along with. He's very obsessive and picky in some ways, and he's not very willing to participate unless things are the way he likes them.

Things like... he'll put on music (quietly) even when others are sleeping, because he LOVES music. He'll ask us what we want to listen to, but he acts rejected if we don't want to listen. He'll want to do family recreation activities, but he gets super focused on us doing everything EXACTLY right, and it becomes more stressful than fun for many of us. When we try to explain, he gets upset because he feels like you're wasting your time doing it if you don't do it right. I asked him once to pick me up from the airport on a Friday evening, since he has Fri-Sun off, but he declined, saying he needed to practice music (he couldn't take a 40 minute break?). I know it was because he was stressed about an upcoming performance, but he performs regularly, and it just sort of drove home the feeling of me always needing to conform to his priorities, instead of him being able to reach out a little.

He loves us and is generous (if generally at my mom's prodding), but it's still hard sometimes. What I've figured out so far is that meeting on completely mutual ground - sailing, dining, etc - is easiest and most successful, but we don't have a huge overlap.

Any tips?

For my partner, leaving home once he is settled in a huge deal... kind of unfathomingly huge from perspective. Running to the corner store, driving a guest home or picking someone up isn't a big thing for me, unless it's extremely late/early. For him, though, it's a huge drain on his precious, precious resources.

I think that the 5 and Sp qualities are reinforcing, especially when it comes to control of physical environment. (Both Sx and So have expects that involve a bit more reaching out, at least on occasion.)

Also, (at least in my limited experience), 5w6s tend to be less emotionally attuned than 5w4 (or maybe it's more T vs F). This means that even when they do feel isolated and lonely, they aren't particularly good at knowing how to bridge the gap. It leads to an impression that they say that want closeness, but are both afraid to reach out and not that good at responding in an attuned way when one does oneself.

So, I struggle with my partner on this front. I try to keep in mind that the actions arising from his issues are not a judgment of my importance to him. I also try to express appreciation when he does try to reach out. Still, not a solved issue, by any means.
 

Thalassa

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Yes... I think Si is such a misunderstood function. People say it is boring... repetitive... but it is so interesting and varied. Two Si doms can vary SO MUCH given their past histories and experiences, more I think than with any other function.

Yeah see this guy majored in business, graduated with a 3.7 and spent the next ten years managing productions before switching to advertising. He's about my age and just in the past couple of years started creative writing. He has his side of the bed, became predictable in some ways with in a few months, and always seemed to be watching sports.

Yet he wasn't boring or closed minded.

Exactly what jock described. Like he became obsessed with completing a half marathon and mildly injured himself. Also very obsessed with writing. Very passionate but push pull hot cold with me.

Sometimes I think enneagram is easier than mbti. He seems 5w4 sx sp. But I am unsure of his type besides being aware of his Si.
 

Redbone

Orisha
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Wow. I would not want to date a 5. It sounds really hard.

Fair enough.

But there is the possibility of this:

"...That fear of being controlled or possessed by
someone else.. if it's the right person.. oh god, do they ever surrender.
The amount they give.. the honesty and desire.. blows all other types away, in my experience.

when a 5 makes the decision to share themselves in a meaningful way .. you might get a hell of a lot more than you were expecting. There is a profound beauty in the trust and vulnerability of it.

However, I don't think very many people ever get to know a 5 that way. And that is smart of them. The trust they show is a kind of soul surrender and few should ever be trusted when such a thing takes place."
 

Lexicon

Temporal Mechanic
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Fair enough.

But there is the possibility of this:

"...That fear of being controlled or possessed by
someone else.. if it's the right person.. oh god, do they ever surrender.
The amount they give.. the honesty and desire.. blows all other types away, in my experience.

when a 5 makes the decision to share themselves in a meaningful way .. you might get a hell of a lot more than you were expecting. There is a profound beauty in the trust and vulnerability of it.

However, I don't think very many people ever get to know a 5 that way. And that is smart of them. The trust they show is a kind of soul surrender and few should ever be trusted when such a thing takes place."

Definitely agree, wholeheartedly.
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[MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION].. after reading about your dad, I wish I had some sort of advice (as a pretty neurotic 5w6) to dispense on how to handle someone like him- in terms of actually establishing mutual "quality" in your "quality time," but personally, I'm a bit stumped. He sounds pretty extreme. By that, I mean- his needs appear to transcend any correlation to any kind of pop-psych typing we could apply to 'em. Sounds like there's some kind of neurosis present, or maybe a mild disorder of some sort (I'm no psychiatrist- I only studied it [haven't we all, ha], but the pattern you describe kinda raises red flags). Did he ever see a therapist for his past?
 

skylights

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Tell him how important it is for you that he lets you do things your way, regardless of his ideas of what's right or wrong (i.e. that's not the point).

Demand equal treatment. You don't have to submit to his standards all the time - you're an adult already.

Just don't tell him he's wrong, as that will make him defensive.

Well, that's true. I can be more clear about how I want to do things. Though I didn't mean to make it sound like he was being forceful. He's not at all pushy - I can leave any time, and he retreats very quickly. For instance, I could have told him to can the music, and he'd have been hurt and just would have left. It's just, I do want to do things with him, but I want to figure out how to make it mutually enjoyable. Right now I feel like the only way I can figure to reach him is on his ground, and that makes it unsustainable for me, and builds resentment. I hate when I try to do something with him, on his terms, and then get mad at him for being himself - I feel like I'm doing more damage than good in that case.

Oh, I see. So it was more than just a hobby - he probably takes the performances very seriously, and likely wasn't in the mood to deal with traffic and a chatty ENFP at the same time (hah).

Besides, he would end up losing much more than 40min if you discount the time that he would need to refocus on the task.

:laugh: This is true. I guess I really just need to accept that unlike me, he has certain times where people interaction just is not desirable at all. To be fair, I see picking someone up from the airport as a fun, exciting, happy thing, whereas it might not tickle him quite so much. I may be looking at it too much through my own eyes. Maybe a lot of times I am looking at him through my own lens of who "a dad" "should" be - warm, protective, helpful, etc - instead of who my dad really is - analytical, incredibly knowledgeable, instructive, etc. And that is not fair to him, or to myself.

:hug:

Yeah, this is familiar. I could go into the psychological justifications for the actions but I don't think that's what you're looking for. Tips? No idea. Haven't worked it out myself.

I know with the airport thing...I used to have (and probably still would have if put into the situation again) tremendous anxiety when it came to having to be "on" in public and be social. When I waited tables as a summer thing in college, I'd spend all day, hours before my shift, just sort of hiding out alone and watching the clock tick by 15 minutes at a time. If someone had asked me to do something that day, I'd say no way, I can't spare the time and make something up, because the idea of losing even a single minute of prep time for the "performance" would be completely terrifying. But when I'd finally get to work and be "on" I'd be completely fine. One would never know I had stayed in my room all day dreading work, I'd be perfectly friendly and entirely competent and at the end of my shift think "well that wasn't so bad" until the next shift when it started all over again. I don't know if this is partly due to 5-ness or because I'm just a lunatic though, so. YMMV.

No, that's really interesting, because that sounds completely like him too. He gets really wound up and tense about practice time but then when he performs he seems so at ease. So I'm always like clearly he didn't need all that practice time... but maybe all that stressed prep is what makes him okay during the performance. For me it's crazy to think that prep is more stressful than performance because I enjoy practice and HATE performing, but that's me.

You say he's been doing it regularly but if he has a similar habit, I don't know what to tell you. But that might be something that's happening. If he hasn't figured it out by now he might not. Unless you wanna sneak some xanax into his coffee.

:laugh: Shouldn't give me ideas like that...

You might try to simply explain your issues but maybe avoid how his behavior makes you feel, instead emphasizing the inherent unfairness of his expectation. When 5s figure out they're hurting others because of their behavior they'll think retreating and withholding is best for everybody (I can't hurt you if I'm not part of your life). He's likely to retreat if the problem is presented as unfairness or an imbalance, like a scale is not weighted properly. Also mention you understand his need for time and space and mention you understand why he needs it; when anybody feels understood I think it's easier for them to make efforts because that effort is recognized.

That sounds good, thank you, Jock. He did explain during our family breakdown that he often withdraws to not do any damage, since he felt like his father hurt his family by being way too pushy and aggressive.

The following sounds amazingly like my 5w6 sp partner is many ways.

For my partner, leaving home once he is settled in a huge deal... kind of unfathomingly huge from perspective. Running to the corner store, driving a guest home or picking someone up isn't a big thing for me, unless it's extremely late/early. For him, though, it's a huge drain on his precious, precious resources.

I think that the 5 and Sp qualities are reinforcing, especially when it comes to control of physical environment. (Both Sx and So have expects that involve a bit more reaching out, at least on occasion.)

Also, (at least in my limited experience), 5w6s tend to be less emotionally attuned than 5w4 (or maybe it's more T vs F). This means that even when they do feel isolated and lonely, they aren't particularly good at knowing how to bridge the gap. It leads to an impression that they say that want closeness, but are both afraid to reach out and not that good at responding in an attuned way when one does oneself.

So, I struggle with my partner on this front. I try to keep in mind that the actions arising from his issues are not a judgment of my importance to him. I also try to express appreciation when he does try to reach out. Still, not a solved issue, by any means.

The bolded sounds very important... thank you.

I was actually really surprised to discover that he felt lonely and isolated - I thought he wanted to get away from us. Part of the reason I'm asking all of this is because it was so startlingly sad to discover that he would leave not because he didn't want to be around, but because he saw it as what would be best for the family. But I see why he might think that, because the "distance" between himself and reality is far, if that makes sense. Not in that he's crazy, or anything, but that he tends to wrap himself up in the things that are "safe" to him and then make it hard to leave them.

Wow. I would not want to date a 5. It sounds really hard.

You know, it's funny, I could see it both ways. On one hand, the distance and withdrawal would be hard. On the other hand, with my dad, once he roots in something, he's there. My mom is an ESFJ 2, and that seems like a really weird combination with an INTP 5, but it works for them. He's very steady, in a way. He roots to the house... to her... to his job... to his hobbies. My father will never be the type to just up and leave. In some ways that attachment is a rare and very valuable quality. I think I would have a hard time with a 5 because I seek a lot of emotional reassurance, but I can also think of a lot of more independent people for whom a relationship with a 5 might be really good. I have an ENFJ friend (not sure of her enneatype), who seems to only date 5w4s, and she LOVES them.

[MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION].. after reading about your dad, I wish I had some sort of advice (as a pretty neurotic 5w6) to dispense on how to handle someone like him- in terms of actually establishing mutual "quality" in your "quality time," but personally, I'm a bit stumped. He sounds pretty extreme. By that, I mean- his needs appear to transcend any correlation to any kind of pop-psych typing we could apply to 'em. Sounds like there's some kind of neurosis present, or maybe a mild disorder of some sort (I'm no psychiatrist- I only studied it [haven't we all, ha], but the pattern you describe kinda raises red flags). Did he ever see a therapist for his past?

 

Seymour

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This is true. I guess I really just need to accept that unlike me, he has certain times where people interaction just is not desirable at all. To be fair, I see picking someone up from the airport as a fun, exciting, happy thing, whereas it might not tickle him quite so much. I may be looking at it too much through my own eyes. Maybe a lot of times I am looking at him through my own lens of who "a dad" "should" be - warm, protective, helpful, etc - instead of who my dad really is - analytical, incredibly knowledgeable, instructive, etc. And that is not fair to him, or to myself.

One big upset I had early on with my partner was when I missed the last shuttle bus back from work when working on a work crisis. It was around 7:30, so I called my partner and ask if he wouldn't mind coming to get me (perhaps a 20-30 minute round trip, since traffic had died down by then). I was shocked when he reacted like I'd asked him to climb Mt Everest. I felt very hurt at the time.

For me, it would not have been a bit deal at all. For him, it was a major imposition.

Of course, now I can use that difference to my advantage... such as when I offer go to a nearby store to fetch the ingredient he forgot to pick up earlier. Then he's incredibly grateful about something that is no biggie to me.

The bolded sounds very important... thank you.

I was actually really surprised to discover that he felt lonely and isolated - I thought he wanted to get away from us. Part of the reason I'm asking all of this is because it was so startlingly sad to discover that he would leave not because he didn't want to be around, but because he saw it as what would be best for the family. But I see why he might think that, because the "distance" between himself and reality is far, if that makes sense. Not in that he's crazy, or anything, but that he tends to wrap himself up in the things that are "safe" to him and then make it hard to leave them.

Glad that was a little helpful, perhaps. I do understand that sense of distance, too. I feel like I'm always figuring out and prepping to take action (to enter reality), but I rarely do. Part of it is fear of being seen and found inadequate (or, with 4-ish issues mixed in, unlovable/unacceptable).


You know, it's funny, I could see it both ways. On one hand, the distance and withdrawal would be hard. On the other hand, with my dad, once he roots in something, he's there. My mom is an ESFJ 2, and that seems like a really weird combination with an INTP 5, but it works for them. He's very steady, in a way. He roots to the house... to her... to his job... to his hobbies. My father will never be the type to just up and leave. In some ways that attachment is a rare and very valuable quality. I think I would have a hard time with a 5 because I seek a lot of emotional reassurance, but I can also think of a lot of more independent people for whom a relationship with a 5 might be really good. I have an ENFJ friend (not sure of her enneatype), who seems to only date 5w4s, and she LOVES them.

I have a hard time imagining being with a 2, since they tend to raise my hackles right away. The "giving to get" I find problematic, because I (5-ishly) actively avoid being obligated or indebted to others. I've heard that 5+2 couples are not that uncommon, but I find it difficult to see how it would work. (On the other hand, it would be convenient to have someone about who was more practical about attending to things.)


Spoiler reply:
 

Salomé

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Disdain probably wasn’t the best word
Disdain works for me.

"...That fear of being controlled or possessed by
someone else.. if it's the right person.. oh god, do they ever surrender.
The amount they give.. the honesty and desire.. blows all other types away, in my experience.

when a 5 makes the decision to share themselves in a meaningful way .. you might get a hell of a lot more than you were expecting. There is a profound beauty in the trust and vulnerability of it.

However, I don't think very many people ever get to know a 5 that way. And that is smart of them. The trust they show is a kind of soul surrender and few should ever be trusted when such a thing takes place."
Who wrote that? Some lovesick NF?
 

Salomé

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I see. Soul-surrendering doesn't sound like an activity this 5 could get into in a big way.
 
S

Stansmith

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6 is still the most embarassing type you can be. Watch any KKK, neo-nazi, or anti-Gay rally in 2013, and you'll see that 90% of the members are brain dead SJ and SP 6s.

 

Halla74

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Placeholder...
 

Evo

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[MENTION=18664]Stansmith[/MENTION] the reason why I truly don't think it's that bad of an enneagram...in all honesty...is cause we get to grow via the most contrast in our life

Now someone could replace the word "contrast" with suffering...if you choose to do so then that's ur opinion.

What I mean is, that a lot of other types...are not thinking about the same things as we are.

They just aren't

That's why it's always to hard to relate to others.

They're thinking of what dress to wear and I'm thinking about death.

I don't look at this as a curse. It's a gift.

I'm going to have no troubles one day because I'm so overly concerned about getting rid of troubles..

I'm going to get the point that master oogway is at in the movie Kung Fu Panda. Where trouble doesn't even phase him. :wubbie: (I love him)

That's the awesome part about being a 6.

We get to REALLY grow...and know the truths of the universe from going through all the "suffering"/contrast we go through.

A 4 is like...never gonna feel like enough is enough...at least not what I've seen....They are always going to be soul searching...it's just ingrained in them.

Where I found my soul at a very early age.

I dunno about other types...maybe 7's will have it hard to do that too if they never deal with issues and just continue to sweep them under a rug.

You get my gist?
 

21%

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So, 5s, how does someone who loves a 5 reach out to them and make it across that distance still being able to keep their own priorities somewhat?

My dad - he's either 6/5 or 5/6, very much in the middle - once shared in the middle of a painful family breakdown that he does feel lonely and isolated sometimes, but the difficulty is that he's rarely willing to reach out to us on our terms. He's an INTP, sp/sx, and had a somewhat painful childhood. I love and respect him and want to make him happy, but at the same time, he's kind of hard to get along with. He's very obsessive and picky in some ways, and he's not very willing to participate unless things are the way he likes them.
My dad is INTP 5w6 sp/so (I think) and he is pretty much the same way. He kinda does his own thing most of the time, and whether we join him or not is up to us. If we want to watch a movie and he happens to want to watch a different one -- he would just go to a different room to watch his movie.

But, he loves us, and I can see that he tries to please. He'd come in to the room just to give us a hug once in a while. We connect the most through intellectual discussions and joking/sparring, and I think that is good enough for me.

My mom is a very sweet, ever-caring ISFJ, who is happy to take on whatever interest he has, so it works out fine that way. She is also quite independent and does not require a lot of attention. They are like best friends.

With us, I think my sister and I have learned that whining works. We'll keep on whining nicely about things and eventually he will give in. :D
 

Salomé

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So, 5s, how does someone who loves a 5 reach out to them and make it across that distance still being able to keep their own priorities somewhat?

My dad - he's either 6/5 or 5/6, very much in the middle - once shared in the middle of a painful family breakdown that he does feel lonely and isolated sometimes, but the difficulty is that he's rarely willing to reach out to us on our terms. ...
Any tips?
You ask how *you* can reach out, but complain that *he* isn't doing so.
I'm not really sure what you're asking...

ETA. He sounds kinda autistic. Not all 5s behave this way.
Personally, I'm very much in tune with the comfort levels of other people and will be accommodating. Most of the time, their way of being comfortable is not my way of being comfortable, which means social occasions generally require a fair amount of self-sacrifice on my part. Which is a drag.
 
W

WALMART

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6 is still the most embarassing type you can be. Watch any KKK, neo-nazi, or anti-Gay rally in 2013, and you'll see that 90% of the members are brain dead SJ and SP 6s.

NJ's are the highest statistical probability, to participate in those types of events and ideological structures.

It's science.
 

Salomé

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I am also extremely, extremely drained by reactive people as well, but it seems to manifest in me as an impatient, silent rage. Emotive, reactive people I feel are so not contained it can sometimes make me very agitated a weird way that’s difficult for me to explain. I almost feel burdened and responsible for their states, and feel either they or I need to control it. Again, it’s a projection of my needs to be contained and not a burden that I unconsciously expect others to have that same need.
Evidence that 5s are not in the least detached, really... They merely aspire to be. In fact, they are highly sensitive (and reactive) to the emotions and energy of others.
A genuinely detached person would not find another person's emotional outburst in any way perturbing.

I think [MENTION=8074]Seymour[/MENTION] said something about 5s being territorial and having well-defended boundaries... If anything, they are territorial because they are acutely aware of how porous those boundaries are.
 

skylights

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You ask how *you* can reach out, but complain that *he* isn't doing so.
I'm not really sure what you're asking...

He's voiced that he enjoys interaction, and that he would like more of it; however, he has fairly specific tastes for his surrounding and activities, which can be hard for the rest of us to find and enjoy. He thinks in a way that is pretty different from me, so I was hoping 5s might have some insight into his POV. The replies I've gotten so far have been useful in understanding the way he may be thinking, and how to better communicate with him.

ETA. He sounds kinda autistic. Not all 5s behave this way.
Personally, I'm very much in tune with the comfort levels of other people and will be accommodating. Most of the time, their way of being comfortable is not my way of being comfortable, which means social occasions generally require a fair amount of self-sacrifice on my part. Which is a drag.


Well, right, I realize that - and like I said, I used to think he was a 6, but this thread has given some really specific examples that make me think he's more 5/6 than 6/5. He has a heavy dose of anxiety and a few obsessive-compulsive traits in either case. But most of the time he's quite agreeable, and he has some Fe-sense of appropriateness. The problem is, as you've voiced, his way of feeling comfortable is not often others' way of feeling comfortable, so the challenge is to find overlap.

My goal is to find more mutual ground that him and the family (just my mom, brother, and I) can both be comfortable on. I would like to be able for us to all spend time together without it being very draining on anyone. So far I have found going out to dinner is the easiest territory, and we all love going to the beach, but I would ideally like to add more situations to that repertoire as well.
 

skylights

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I apologize for the multiple posts in a row - my internet hasn't been working very well lately so I've been taking what I can get in terms of pages loading.

One big upset I had early on with my partner was when I missed the last shuttle bus back from work when working on a work crisis. It was around 7:30, so I called my partner and ask if he wouldn't mind coming to get me (perhaps a 20-30 minute round trip, since traffic had died down by then). I was shocked when he reacted like I'd asked him to climb Mt Everest. I felt very hurt at the time.

For me, it would not have been a bit deal at all. For him, it was a major imposition.

Of course, now I can use that difference to my advantage... such as when I offer go to a nearby store to fetch the ingredient he forgot to pick up earlier. Then he's incredibly grateful about something that is no biggie to me.

Ah, yes, that is a good way too look at it. I think that is a big reason my parents get along, actually. What's hard for him is generally easy for her (groceries, taking care of kids, doing the day-to-day finances), and what's hard for her is often easy for him (big purchases, stocks, car and home maintenance/repair).

Glad that was a little helpful, perhaps. I do understand that sense of distance, too. I feel like I'm always figuring out and prepping to take action (to enter reality), but I rarely do. Part of it is fear of being seen and found inadequate (or, with 4-ish issues mixed in, unlovable/unacceptable).

Yeah, that sounds hard. I can somewhat understand that challenge, as a 6. I'm always making plans and often by the time things have happened, those plans are completely moot because everything's changed. It's hard to just trust that the situation is going to be fine.

I have a hard time imagining being with a 2, since they tend to raise my hackles right away. The "giving to get" I find problematic, because I (5-ishly) actively avoid being obligated or indebted to others. I've heard that 5+2 couples are not that uncommon, but I find it difficult to see how it would work. (On the other hand, it would be convenient to have someone about who was more practical about attending to things.)

I think for my parents it works because he has a certain amount of Fe and she's really very ESxJ - she's an ESFJ, for sure, but she's so J that she tests ESTJ. I believe they're also both sp-first - him, sp/sx and her sp/so. She's pretty "pure" in terms of 2 giving-to-get - she enjoys giving and she wants love and harmony in return - she's doesn't seek money or status, or even attention. She also is the classic w1 "good girl", which makes her diligent - she's very self-sufficient, and just desires a happy, harmonious family. And then Dad is very conflict-avoidant, so that goes along well with her desire for harmony. They have a symbiotic sort of relationship. They're both practical, conflict-averse, generous, stable, academic, and protective. Neither is particularly ooey-gooey emotionally. They almost never go on dates with just each other and rarely are kissy. It's very much a "working partners" sort of thing, and it's a little strange to me (being the ooey-gooey type myself), but it's always seemed to work well for them.

My therapist (who at points has suggested I should be a therapist) agrees that being a bit 5-ish (a bit schizoid) is helpful for a therapist, because it helps prevent the therapist from getting swept up into the emotional state of the client. 5s are territorial and have boundaries, so have an easier time separating out their emotional state from that of the client.

That makes a lot of sense. It's one of the main reasons I shy away from therapy, too - I have a very hard time removing myself from others' emotions. My dad seems to be able to sympathize and keep distance at the same time, which is really impressive to me. Though I know he cares about all the people he sees, and from time to time does have a session that affects him particularly strongly, it's rare for him to come home still carrying the weight of client issues.


My dad is INTP 5w6 sp/so (I think) and he is pretty much the same way. He kinda does his own thing most of the time, and whether we join him or not is up to us. If we want to watch a movie and he happens to want to watch a different one -- he would just go to a different room to watch his movie.

But, he loves us, and I can see that he tries to please. He'd come in to the room just to give us a hug once in a while. We connect the most through intellectual discussions and joking/sparring, and I think that is good enough for me.

Yeah, exactly. That's cute that he'll come and hug you guys!

My mom is a very sweet, ever-caring ISFJ, who is happy to take on whatever interest he has, so it works out fine that way. She is also quite independent and does not require a lot of attention. They are like best friends.

Aww :heart: That's sweet. That's how my mom is too - very independent and not requiring a lot of attention.

With us, I think my sister and I have learned that whining works. We'll keep on whining nicely about things and eventually he will give in. :D

:rofl1: I should try that.
 
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