The Hardest Type to be in The Enneagram

[Rasofy]

Finally a sucessful thread that doesn't rely on drama.

Let's not screw this one up, folks (you included, Rasofy).

 

[WALMART]

Just fyi, this doesn't ring true at all to me.

Not sure if you've familiarized yourself with Molina yet, but...

- you're 9II
- 4s are 4EI
- and 6s are 6SS

That's

- 9 Intrinsic Intrinsic
- 4 Extrinsic Intrinsic
- and 6 Systemic Systemic

As a 9, your focus is about as Intrinsic (akin to introverted) as it comes.

6s aren't focused Intrinsically or Extrinsically (akin to extroversion), we're focused on the Systemic dimension, which is essentially an in-between dimension, neither Intrinsic nor Extrinsic. It's like being on the edge of a knife, between one side and the other. Hence, 6s' tendency to be ambiverted. And the observation of our often "contradictory" natures, and the "bipolarity" of our thought processes.

I have not, but I've seen you mention the theory prior, during my infancy on the site. Maybe I will look into it.

Exactly.

But it's also often described as a form of not-thinking.

This is what I was trying to point to with my comment.

/ just got back from yoga an hour or two ago

It can be, yeah. I believe there are two major forms, but I don't know the terms. As a nine, my conscious mind is pretty clear most times as it is, my thinking is like a 'murmur' that fills the void, only every so often a particular stray thought really slamming to the forefront. I subsequently feel I am a fan of more mindful meditation, to select a subject and ponder intensely on it, or let my mind naturally wander across it where it smolders to ash.

 

[Zarathustra]

^^ it became screwed up as soon as it became self-conscious

Knowledge of good and evil and fruit and all that

 

[Zarathustra]

I have not, but I've seen you mention the theory prior, during my infancy on the site. Maybe I will look into it.

Best stuff on typology I've found.

It can be, yeah. I believe there are two major forms, but I don't know the terms. As a nine, my conscious mind is pretty clear most times as it is, my thinking is like a 'murmur' that fills the void, only every so often a particular stray thought really slamming to the forefront. I subsequently feel I am a fan of more mindful meditation, to select a subject and ponder intensely on it, or let my mind naturally wander across it where it smolders to ash.

Yeah, as a 6, I feel my head constantly filled with thoughts.

Quieting that down a bit, and just enjoying being, seems (at least part of) the route to betterment.

/ just totally screwed up that edit by overthinking it.

 

[Rasofy]

^^ it became screwed up as soon as it became self-conscious

Knowledge of good and evil and fruit and all that

Some things shouldn't be verbalized, I guess.

Yours classic strategy of writing down the number of members reading the thread usually works, though.

Anyways, good job on keeping the discussion knowledgeable.

 

[Nijntje]

So the positive outlook in 9s is more of a facade that they show to others?

Without a doubt it is a facade. A lot of the time the facade is hiding how much if a fucking mess our lives are. Positivity can be a effective denial method to pretend that there isn't unpleasant stuff we have to deal with.

Also, as [MENTION=13260]Rasofy[/MENTION] said, 9's are pretty bad at articulating their needs to others, which can make relationships on all levels difficult.

But otherwise, yeah, I think 6's get the hardest of it.

 

[OrangeAppled]

The research I've done has actually shown 4s, 5s, and 6s to have it hardest.

I think this has something to do with them being at the bottom of the enneagram. The gap between the 4 & 5 is some kind of void they have a connection to (or a disconnect from the energies of the other types; "outsiders"), and 9 forms a triad with that void (being at the top, in the middle), which makes them the withdrawn triad. The proximity of 6 to 5 would bring an element of this to them & I find it easy to see (even though they seem to feel it more than appear as "outsiders"), but I'm not sure why it doesn't apply so clearly to 3s.

 

[Evo]

I'm wondering why it matters, who has it worse.

It doesn't lol it's silly to compare...everyone's got bs they have to deal with.

One person doesn't laugh at your joke or seems indifferent to you = "this person hates me, I'm annoying and embarassing myself. My friends are starting to distance themselves from me. I need new friends. Sh-t, I'm gonna start focusing on my screenwriting again, I don't need friends."

I'm an 18 year old male, mind you.

Ha ha I have literally went through that same thought pattern. Quite a lot actually...dammit.

Not gonna lie. Being an 8 is pretty awesome. Sucks to suck, brah.

Ha I LOL at this

I'm not completely knocking this, cuz I do believe in growth, but...

You do realize you're telling someone from the head center to think more...

A *huge* part of our problem is that we think too much, creating something out of nothing.

The key to moving towards health for a 6 is... well, complex.... I'll report back when I have a better understanding of it.

Yea, but if you can replace some of the anxious crap that goes through a 6's head all day with just a little bit of rewriting their thinking habits, the person would be much happier.

And yea, I actually HATE IT when people tell me I am over thinking things.

Then I wanna know why the fuck they're NOT thinking about the same shit.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

My impression is that a 6w5 would be quite difficult because that added little 5 gives the person the ability to over think everything including their fears. There is a lot to be afraid of and getting stuck thinking through strategies to combat every possible negative scenario is quite a difficult place to be. I think it can also be a tough combo for fitting in with other people.

I don't have a lot of understanding of Enneagram, but this is what I gather so far.

Without a doubt it is a facade. A lot of the time the facade is hiding how much if a fucking mess our lives are. Positivity can be a effective denial method to pretend that there isn't unpleasant stuff we have to deal with.

Also, as [MENTION=13260]Rasofy[/MENTION] said, 9's are pretty bad at articulating their needs to others, which can make relationships on all levels difficult.

But otherwise, yeah, I think 6's get the hardest of it.

It also seems like some 9's can be good at pushing negativity into the subconscious realm, since that is the ultimate avoidance tactic. That can make the negativity especially intangible and difficult to deal with and correct.

 

[Evo]

So the positive outlook in 9s is more of a facade that they show to others?

yes

okay okay...the use of god threw me...boss feels more accurate to what you mean...or fierce! with a whole swishy snap thing going on but yeah sure okay...i hear ya...

Yea, I feel like I get where they're coming from though.

Probably just a different definition of "God" I suppose lol

Last Fall I read several of the chapters on vent.

I've also brought it up a number of times in different threads about the Enneagram.

It's been a long time coming that I was supposed to make a thread about it.

It's the theoretical add-on proposed by Armando Molina (Naranjo's student) in his book 'Our Ways: Values & Character'.

It's the best book on the Enneagram I've found, and the add-on is the most powerful piece of typology I have found.

Naranjo highly approves of it as well, but, unfortunately, the book is not widely known.

It costs $50, and you can only get it shipped from Europe, by the original publisher.

Yea that is really interesting stuffs. I wanna know more about that.


I did see a point that maybe [MENTION=15886]superunknown[/MENTION] was making

In the sense of a shadow, maybe

I don't know if I can explain this properly....so hopefully you can follow my thought here

The way I think of a shadow is best described like it's a mirror. So when I speak to someone that makes me feel intense anger...it's most likely a shadow. Like a dirty room...I used to get upset that my ex was a mess. When in all actuality I am a mess as well. It's like that part of me that I deny, or hate. Until you come to terms with it...the shadow doesn't go away and you'll always feel anger walking in to a dirty room.

Well......fear...is a VERY strange shadow....

What am I afraid of within me?

What monster do I have inside me?

I don't get it.

Why am I so afraid....of myself? lol (Cause if you ask anyone that knows anything, they're gonna tell you to look within...whether they believe in the idea of the shadow or not)

That's how I interpreted superunknown's post about worry manifesting externally.

Did I interpret wrong?

 

[Amargith]

Being a 4 stinks. Both jobs and relationships can be a bitch to land due to the fact that it is all part of that ugly thing we call reality. But that said, I'm happy to be one. If you can make it work for you, it can be epic.

I don't envy 6s. For all my envy, I dont envy them. The paranoia must be a killer - and often makes me roll my eyes when they go there for the umptieth time after knowing every time before that they were wrong to mistrust you. It is fucking tiresome to non-stop have to prove your loyalty - but I wager it must be even more tiresome to nonstop have to run that calculation coz you re triggered by your insecurities.

That said, I'm atm counselling a 5 on the side....dude, when they go bad, they seriously go bad. The prison they build themselves, with 4 and 6 wings to draw from...woah. No offense.

 

[Ginkgo]

I think this has something to do with them being at the bottom of the enneagram. The gap between the 4 & 5 is some kind of void they have a connection to (or a disconnect from the energies of the other types; "outsiders"),

Exactly. Where 9 is completely connected, the opposite end between 4 and 5 is torn. Not only are we outsiders, but we tend to perceive things as split in the sense that we switch from 1st person to 3rd person perspectives, see where things stick out, where they don't add up, where they need emphasis, etc. 3s aren't as withdrawn about how they relate to the world (they almost seem to think they're on top of it), so emphasizing the "peculiar" sides of life tend not to be a priority because the demand isn't as high for the peculiars.

You would think there would be symmetry between the 6s isolation and the 3s, but to be honest 3w4s isolation may rival 6w5s. 6w7 and 3w2 start to head into a different territory all together.

 

[Riva]

I could identify with a lof of points made about e9s, except for the conflict avoiding part. *contemplates* I have no complaints being an e7 except that I have to learn how to live according to a day plan, lest life slips away. Life slipping away is an issue, especially when I was younger. Edit - going by the descriptions it seems from each of the 3 centers, 4s and 6s and 9s are the most stressful types to be. Just imagine being a 4-6-9 tritype.

 

[WALMART]

I did see a point that maybe [MENTION=15886]superunknown[/MENTION] was making

In the sense of a shadow, maybe

I don't know if I can explain this properly....so hopefully you can follow my thought here

The way I think of a shadow is best described like it's a mirror. So when I speak to someone that makes me feel intense anger...it's most likely a shadow. Like a dirty room...I used to get upset that my ex was a mess. When in all actuality I am a mess as well. It's like that part of me that I deny, or hate. Until you come to terms with it...the shadow doesn't go away and you'll always feel anger walking in to a dirty room.

Well......fear...is a VERY strange shadow....

What am I afraid of within me?

What monster do I have inside me?

I don't get it.

Why am I so afraid....of myself? lol (Cause if you ask anyone that knows anything, they're gonna tell you to look within...whether they believe in the idea of the shadow or not)

That's how I interpreted superunknown's post about worry manifesting externally.

Did I interpret wrong?

No, I think that was a pretty good extrapolation of the concept I was getting at. It's probably not objectively 'ideal' for many types to live sloppily, but yeah - the 6 fix to ease the worry would be to externally repair the situation - clean the mess, get upset so someone else cleans it, etc (I don't think this particular situation is exclusive to 6's, it is more a metaphor of the wider context of habits). Contrast against the 9 solution - they'll let the feeling pass through them, they are determined to press forth with their normal mind in tact, unperturbed. Probably slightly romanticized by my ego, but this quote comes to mind, relative to nines:

"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

The six approach, contrarily, is to tackle the fear head on. As the Enneagram Institute puts it:

"Sixes are always aware of their anxieties and are always looking for ways to construct “social security” bulwarks against them. If Sixes feel that they have sufficient back up, they can move forward with some degree of confidence. But if that crumbles, they become anxious and self-doubting, reawakening their Basic Fear."

This is a good example of the need for the externalization of concern that is a penchant for sixes.

Some more, just 'cause I feel like thinking/writing...

I think type sixes grow vested in their ideals moreso than any other type, for whatever assorted reasons - hence the term "loyalists". They, like type fives, seek an analysis of the world, but they also have a drive in them to apply these perceptions in some manner. Unlike the five, it isn't enough simply 'knowing' or 'solving' the sets of information. I think this is where the internal 'blindness' I spoke of can stem from - an attachment to applicable ideals they wholly believe are vital to their existence, often unwilling to reconcile the absence of their constructs to their idealized perceptions. It may go so far to manifest as self-sabotage, projected imagery of the unknown upon internal systems of the psyche, affecting mood.

I think these characteristics will really shine through in the arena of politics more than anything. On one side, you likely have the radical conservative, and on the other, the revolutionary martyr - both probably Ni-6 types, and both essentially fighting for the exact same universal reasons - a strong attachment to particular sets of ideals.

 

[ndovjtjcaqidthi]

Hmm I think I'm a type 4.

 

[Ginkgo]

"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

I somehow doubt Paul was a 9.

 

[WALMART]

I somehow doubt Paul was a 9.

I'll take you up on that that notion

Paul is different from the other “ones” in science fiction because of his steadfast resistance to his destiny and his concern about the consequences of power. Paul does not resist because he does not believe—he knows he is the Kwisatz Haderach. He resists because he can foresee the bloody war that will result throughout the universe following his rise to power. The Bene Gesserit have arranged for the advent of “the One” because they believe a war is the only way to diversify mankind’s gene pool. Paul, however, wants to believe there is another way, one that does not cause so much suffering and death.

Paul weaves the path of his destiny by the way he attempts to resist it. For example, he does not want to kill Stilgar so that he can rise to power. Instead, he creates a new position within the Fremen hierarchy so that both Stilgar and himself can be leaders. Paul successfully becomes the religious leader of the Fremen. However, we always have a sense that he is fighting a losing battle with his destiny. Paul feels torn between his allegiances—to the House of Atreides, to the Bene Gesserit, and to the Fremen—and his role in the intergalactic politics of the Imperium and the Landsraad. At the end of Dune, although he helps the Fremen cause and protects the Atreides from destruction by the Harkonnen, Paul is nonetheless forever trapped in his role as the Muad’Dib. The simple happiness he craves with Chani remains unattainable."

What type do you think he is?

 

[Ginkgo]

What type do you think he is?

INFJ E1.

Enneagram 9s don't resist fate as much as they surrender to it.

 

[WALMART]

INFJ E1.

Enneagram 9s don't resist fate as much as they surrender to it.

"At the end of Dune, although he helps the Fremen cause and protects the Atreides from destruction by the Harkonnen, Paul is nonetheless forever trapped in his role as the Muad’Dib."

I also read a brief snippet of a plot analysis detailing how he "reluctantly" carried the Jihad across the universe, resultant of his establishment to power, simply because he knows that was the role he was born into.

But I'm not sure, I haven't read past the first Dune. One and nine isn't so far off, so I suppose it is a reasonable assessment.

 

[Ginkgo]

"At the end of Dune, although he helps the Fremen cause and protects the Atreides from destruction by the Harkonnen, Paul is nonetheless forever trapped in his role as the Muad’Dib."

I also read a brief snippet of a plot analysis detailing how he "reluctantly" carried the Jihad across the universe, resultant of his establishment to power, simply because he knows that was the role he was born into.

But I'm not sure, I haven't read past the first Dune. One and nine isn't so far off, so I suppose it is a reasonable assessment.

Every Dune novel after the first isn't much worth the read. However, I do recommend watching David Lynch's interpretation if only for the lulz.