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Difference between E3 and E5?

Corona

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A Type 3 seeks to feel valuable through affirmation from others and from the sense of accomplishment of one's own goals.

Type 5's main goal is mastery-- the omnipotence of complete understanding in every situation, through analysis and finding of truth.

The difficulty is, for me, I see the finding of truth and social approval/real world accomplishment as synonymous, in that:

In my opinion, real world accomplishment/results is the only way to objectively prove one's understanding/mastery-- anything less seems hollow/self-serving, to analyze within one's own mind, however solid the chain of logic, may be biased or missing important information. Conversely I also believe that understanding/mastery of the big picture will inevitably lead to social approval/real world accomplishment, in that, if I am not succeeding in life, my understanding of myself and what I should be doing with my life is flawed. My desire to affirm my mastery for myself leads me to appeal to others in order to get real evidence of my understanding, and yet, my desire for real world accomplishments leads me to search for the truth in every situation. Its hard to decipher which desire reflects my ultimate goal in life.

So I was hoping someone could provide some illuminating real world ways to tell whether one is a Type 3 or Type 5 Enneagram.
 
S

Stansmith

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E3 is image-conscious, E5 is not. You could argue E5s give off the image of competence or intellegence, but they're not gonna be as obsessed with surface-things like grooming, tailoring their suit to the perfect fit, mastering a firm handshake, etc.

But when it comes down to it, do you care more about looking successful and being admired by others for your mastery (whether you've actually mastered something or not), or are your goals of mastery completely personal?
 

Rasofy

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Op sounds like a 3.

Knowledge for 5s is much more than a tool to achieve stuff.

Things like trying to understand our purpose (or lack thereof) in this world have a much bigger importance in the grand scheme of things.

Also, a wide social approval doesn't mean anything in terms of quality. In fact, in order to make something popular, it's usually necessary to dumb down whatever it is that you're presenting (see: The Big Bang Theory).
 

21%

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But when it comes down to it, do you care more about looking successful and being admired by others for your mastery (whether you've actually mastered something or not), or are your goals of mastery completely personal?
This is a good way to tell.


What also helps is to look at 'unhealthy' levels and see which one is more 'ouch'. Fives also hate being vulnerable and they feel like they need to hoard all the knowledge in the world (in areas which they deem important) in order to fend for themselves. Deep down they might feel overwhelmed by the world, and need to retreat to 'store up' their knowledge to make sense of it all.

Threes are more 'open' that way. They actively engage with the world in order to win approval. To me both types have different kinds of energy.
 

Corona

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Op sounds like a 3.

Knowledge for 5s is much more than a tool to achieve stuff.

Things like trying to understand our purpose (or lack thereof) in this world have a much bigger importance in the grand scheme of things.

Also, a wide social approval doesn't mean anything in terms of quality. In fact, in order to make something popular, it's usually necessary to dumb down whatever it is that you're presenting (see: The Big Bang Theory).

Well what I mean by social approval is, any kind of response by the outer world has to be interpreted by me, and I decide whether or not it matters to me (as in, whether or not it contributes to my understanding of myself), I'm not just blindly about general popularity, but yes, being liked by people is important to me, because it is how I judge my own strength of character. And yes I do seek knowledge for its own sake-- the feeling of discovery or sudden realization is one of the greatest feelings for me. But equally great is seeing my ideas work in reality-- I see reality as solidifying my inner world. But I guess at heart, I am still a 3 since I would still feel like crap if the ideas I come up with never improve my life in any way. Ideas interest me, but ultimately the world energizes me. What's odd is that I am an INTP, and apparently type 3's are pretty rare for INTPs.
 

Corona

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The thing is, I was a pure 5 type for awhile, but as I came to acquire more life experience, it has been humbling, to understand that some things have to be experienced to be appreciated rather than analyzed from afar. Also I have tried to analyze my own emotions and more and more I am coming to the realization that my emotions are to an extent driven by accomplishments (which is probably evolutionary), as are most people's emotions, from an evolutionary point of view. Intellectual curiosity has always been a strong driving force for me, and I used to see it as the end-all be all of life, but idk, these days, I tend to see it more like a special treat, to be indulged in at times to strengthen my core values, but also I see that it is impoverishing to my mind and body, its like, I have to balance my real world desire for accomplishments (type 3) with my curiosity (type 5), in order to experience and understand the world fully. My ultimate goal would be a person who finds value in everything in life. THat is my ultimate goal (not saying i am anywhere close)
 

Rasofy

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The thing is, I was a pure 5 type for awhile, but as I came to acquire more life experience, it has been humbling, to understand that some things have to be experienced to be appreciated rather than analyzed from afar. Also I have tried to analyze my own emotions and more and more I am coming to the realization that my emotions are to an extent driven by accomplishments (which is probably evolutionary), as are most people's emotions, from an evolutionary point of view. Intellectual curiosity has always been a strong driving force for me, and I used to see it as the end-all be all of life, but idk, these days, I tend to see it more like a special treat, to be indulged in at times to strengthen my core values, but also I see that it is impoverishing to my mind and body, its like, I have to balance my real world desire for accomplishments (type 3) with my curiosity (type 5), in order to experience and understand the world fully. My ultimate goal would be a person who finds value in everything in life. THat is my ultimate goal (not saying i am anywhere close)
I relate a lot. Personally, I think a single enneagram is often not enough to properly describe a personality - and that's why enneagram tri types work very well for a lot of people.
 

Azure Flame

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3's are scared of being worthless
5's are scared of being inadequate

3's tend to be fairly ruthless decision makers
5's tend to be very hesitant decision makers
 

Corona

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3's are scared of being worthless
5's are scared of being inadequate

3's tend to be fairly ruthless decision makers
5's tend to be very hesitant decision makers

Hmm see I'm not seeing the difference between worthless and inadequate quite so easily...

And I don't know if that second bit is true, Type 5's are more ruthless when it comes to not caring what people think, Type 3's are more likely to balance the perceptions of others
 

VagrantFarce

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Simply put, it's the different triads they inhabit.

Here's a nice way of differentiating:
  • 3s, as an image-driven type, sometimes confuse seeming with being. They get so caught up in projecting a certain image they neglect their actual identity.
  • 5s, as a fear-driven type, sometimes confuse thinking with doing. They get so caught up in their own thoughts that they neglect making confident decisions.

Beyond that, it's likely that a 5 would feel less "accessible" than a 3 - where a 3 might be "aggressively" friendly, a 5 would be "aggressively" withdrawn.
 

Seymour

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3s also want to get the job done (to get the external rewards/acclaim), sometimes to the point of taking short cuts or spackling over problems. 3s often want to be in charge, even as they try to live up to what they think is the desired successful image. 3s tend to be high energy in pursuit of their goals.

5s want to figure things out before acting, sometimes to the point of never acting. 5s rarely want to be in charge, but instead are territorial about resisting influence and obligation. 5s tend to pick their own goals and areas of interest. 5s tend to be lower energy since they try to hoard energy against future need.
 

Azure Flame

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Hmm see I'm not seeing the difference between worthless and inadequate quite so easily...

And I don't know if that second bit is true, Type 5's are more ruthless when it comes to not caring what people think, Type 3's are more likely to balance the perceptions of others

definition, worthless: Having no real value or use.
definition, inadequate: Not adequate; lacking the quality or quantity required; insufficient for a purpose.

Often times, E3's are very proactive in order to compensate for their fear of being worthless.
5's on the other hand, gather knowledge to compensate for their feelings of inadequacy before a situation. They most often spend their lives preparing for the "coming doom" of some sort. Doom always looms on the horizon and they are scared that when it arrives they will be inadequately prepared. ie: some financial crisis on the horizon is about to happen and they need to be ready for it (see peter schiff).

E3's usually have no concern for any sort of "coming doom." They're much more interested in how they come off to others. In the event of a coming doom, an E3 will most likely be helping others, while an E5 would probably be safe and hidden somewhere in secrecy, or if they integrate to 8, might actually become kings of the apocalypse because they've been preparing their whole lives for it. lol.

5's are not nearly as action oriented as E3's are.

I'm almost insulted that someone would confuse the two. They are extremely not alike in any way except possibly bragging about themselves so people can recognize their prowess.
 

OrangeAppled

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The 3 "passion" is vanity. In some way in their early development, the 3 received a message about reality that basically said "there is not enough love/attention to go around in the world", and so the person seeks to be/appear very valuable to get their piece of the love pie. This is why they are a heart/image type. Their passion is vanity because they identify with their idealized self & need to be seen that way by others.

They tend to try & fill up their love void through achievements, recognition, & success in whatever areas they find significant. They likely internalized external values at a young age, noting what caused people to be admired & given attention, and they likely also build their image around whatever particular strengths they have that received acknowledgement also. They identify with this positive self-image, and they "market" it to others. When they fall short of it is when their vanity leads to deceit - they so badly need to feel & be seen as their idealized self, a self that is valuable to others, that they may go into denial about their shortcomings & exaggerate certain things about themselves unwittingly. Their vanity prevents them from admitting their failures & flaws, even to themselves, and they'll go to lengths to hide it. This creates a viscous cycle because they tend to end up the type of people who never feel loved for who they really are & maybe people who have spent their life pursuing things that didn't really fulfill them personally.


The 5 passion is avarice. In some way in their early development, the 5 received a message about reality that basically said "the world requires/takes a lot & gives back very little", and so the person seeks to accumulate & hoard their mental, emotional & physical energy in fear of external things sucking them dry & giving them nothing back. This is why they are in the head/fear triad. In order to conserve their energy, they tend to demotivate themselves by not feeling, because of course if nothing affects you emotionally then you are not particularly motivated to act. The person makes very little matter to them so there is little to lose & little to maintain. Because head knowledge is hard to lose & relatively easy to gather (not so much emotional/physical energy), they make seek this to feel more "equipped" to deal with the demands of life.

But the get caught up in a cycle of not seeking pragmatic knowledge. They tend to want to unravel the grand mysteries of life, perhaps, because then they may be able to know how to navigate it efficiently. The idea is to store up all this info until one day they are finally ready to join the world, but of course, they never really feel ready & small things drain them too easily. In order to justify this avarice, they have to be detached. They cannot really care that they contribute little & achieve little & connect with few or no people. They will intellectualize feelings in order to dismiss them so as not to act on them. If they don't care, then they have no reason to "share", to make effort & use their time/energy/money towards anyone else. They keep obligations & desires minimal as well, so as to expend less of themselves. This creates a vicious cycle because if they never make any effort to gain anything (because they expect the contribution involved to not be worth it), then they continue to have little & this feeds their fear. However, they may sometimes share some of their acquired knowledge as a way of "giving", because they don't want to give in ways that involve emotion or physical energy so much.

As you see, the fixations & passions are quite different. I'd try to determine whether vanity/deceit or avarice/detachment is the core issue in how you're motivated or inclined to navigate life.

I wrote this concerning 3 vs 5 for 4 wings, but it makes some distinctions for the types themselves:

I think a big indicator is motivation….5s tend to kill it & 3s adopt it.

Naranjo mentions "feelinglessness" and "negativism" among other defenses 5s use to not act, so as to justify the greed of their own energy/time/thoughts. They essentially devalue their own feelings & emotions by turning them into "shoulds" or obligations from outside, instead of wants & needs from within. By doing this, they don't have to act & face their fear of "not enough" in themselves & the world. However, this emptiness perpetuates a sense of "not having enough" & justifies withholding.

3s do something sort of similar, but in reverse. To avoid their sense of worthlessness, they take on "shoulds" and obligations from outside as personal values, wants & needs. They deceive themselves, then, as to who they are & what they really want as individuals. In achieving things, they bury worthlessness under a heap of success that has little to do with what is personally fulfilling for them as an individual. Thus, they are motivated to act, to avoid worthlessness & the emptiness of their success. They can't acknowledge & develop their personal values without confronting whether they actually have any value themselves, because that has to be validated first. There can be a kind of numbness from avoiding the emotions needed to form personal values, and this too is avoided with action.
 
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