Power-seeking

[Entropic]

Type 2, 5 and 8 are the power-seekers in the enneagram. What does it mean to be a power-seeker? What does it mean to be in possession of power? How does this power-seek manifest in the three types?

Also, another thing to think about is that type 5 integrates towards 8, 8 integrates towards 2 but two integrates towards 4. Why not back to type 5?

 

[Standuble]

I've thought quite a lot about this question. The meaning of "power-seeker" is different for the three. Here is how I understand it:

2 - Seeks power in the form of influence so they can feel that they are helpful.
5 - Seeks power in the form of knowledge so the outside world can be understood and navigated allowing independence to be maintained as a result.
8 - Seeks power in the form of assertion and/or aggression so the outside world cannot rule over them allowing independence to be maintained as a result.

As for 5's integration point: I tinker with the idea that 4 is technically a power seeking type as well for they seek power through significance to overcome internal deficits of self-worth. But for the sake of argument let's say its not. One thing type 2's have to develop is their own feelings and views. They do much for others (whether helpful or detrimental under the misconception they are being helpful) but not much for themselves. 4 integration gives them something which is theirs and allows them to address their own personal needs as well rather than leaving them ignored. In 5 there wouldn't be what they need for it would promote detachment and avarice which would disrupt their people focus but also leave them unaware of their own emotional needs.

 

[Little_Sticks]

Type 2, 5 and 8 are the power-seekers in the enneagram. What does it mean to be a power-seeker? What does it mean to be in possession of power? How does this power-seek manifest in the three types?

Also, another thing to think about is that type 5 integrates towards 8, 8 integrates towards 2 but two integrates towards 4. Why not back to type 5?

Because then it wouldn't be perfect and neat to look at and shits.

Notice the symmetry. Seems pretty forced.

I'm really turning into a cynical asshole. I can't help it anymore. I hate how people pretend they know other people better than those people know themselves and fuck them up with their bullshit. I'm starting to think acceptance means letting a person define themselves; human beings are so shitty in that regard. Good thing I've decided I've never been human.

Oh wait, I guess that's an off-topic rant. I should do this more often.

 

[sulfit]

2 seeks social power. "I have value because I am helpful and I am needed and requested by others."
5 seeks intellectual power. "I am competent and able to out-think and solve any problem."
8 seeks physical power. "I cannot be threatened because I've managed to intimidate everything in my vicinity."

All these types confront others as their long-term orientation: http://www.9types.com/writeup/Theory20.htm

 

[thoughtlost]

I never thought of it that way (so I'll try doing so now)...

I don't know if my thoughts mean anything, but I do see myself as a potential 2 (I've been called a 2w1 at least once). Still, I won't try to talk from a 2 "perspective" because in the end that means nothing (at least it does for me).

I don't know if I seek power (maybe I do). And if I do, it's not through being helpful or needed or requested by others. Personally, I don't believe I have any power by myself. I believe the universe has power, our species, natural laws. I find this power when the "whole is greater than the sum of its parts". I see it everywhere... when people dance in unison, in technology, when people work super hard (whether it be in sports, music, or even when people build things). It's kind of like being a robot. Being a well-oiled machine is one of the most beautiful things I can think of. That's power to me (or least that's how I feel right now). ...By the way, I will always have a deep burning love for highways.

I do know some true blue 2s, though. ...I only understand their superficial behaviors (like wanting to take care of me ...and from only one of them I FUCKING LOVE IT!! free food all A-ROUND ...and I am not very good at directing myself ...so it's nice that she does it for me; I feel like my five year old self whenever I am around her), but I think that their desire to be helpful and needed can cause them to seek power ...or seek peace inside of themselves, or seem competent or anything other psychological phenomenon... at least that's what I've noticed. Could be wrong ...just speaking out of my ass by this point. ignore me

 

[Entropic]

@thoughtlost the way power-seeking works in type 2, 5 and 8 is that they all fend off a sense of lacking control in some way. 5s feel they lack control over the world so they seek to control it through their minds, 8s feel they lack control of the world so they try to seek to control the world itself and 2s feel they lack control over their own wants and desires (denying and being out of touch with them) to they seek to control them through people.

So it's not how you see power as a concept but how your behavior and mentally reflects that of seeking power or more specifically, control in your life through your enneatype core. As a 584, I am very prone towards power-seeking and I mostly seek to control the world through intellectualism.

 

[thoughtlost]

@thoughtlost the way power-seeking works in type 2, 5 and 8 is that they all fend off a sense of lacking control in some way. 5s feel they lack control over the world so they seek to control it through their minds, 8s feel they lack control of the world so they try to seek to control the world itself and 2s feel they lack control over their own wants and desires (denying and being out of touch with them) to they seek to control them through people.

So it's not how you see power as a concept but how your behavior and mentally reflects that of seeking power or more specifically, control in your life through your enneatype core. As a 584, I am very prone towards power-seeking and I mostly seek to control the world through intellectualism.

aaahhhhhh I see now. hhhmmm... I think I understand how type 8s like to seek power. I feel like my sister hates subjugating to the world, so if she wants something she will find a way to get it and she doesn't want money to be an issue. She is extremely pushy and impatient and impulsive. ...Is ...that a decentish example? I've never met a five in real life, so I have yet to understand the truth of what you're saying.

And is power-seeking something a power-seeking type wouldn't notice they do? I ask this question because ...I've been thinking and I don't feel like I do that. I have a friend who I've typed as a two because she says that she focuses on others' pain to deal with her own. So even though she knows she is suffering it's "better' for her to help others with their pain.

...I mean, it looks like she knows she is doing that (because she said it explicitly; she says she likes to be people's mommy) ...but I don't find myself trying to control my internal world (or even the external world ...fuck... I am lazy as hell, yo) by focusing on others and trying to be seen as helpful/care for others/whatever the core is of type 2. Also, my mom is a type two and she likes to think she is in control/put together and that she never admits that she does anything wrong (if she does then she'll feel guilty as fuck) ...but I haven't caught myself doing that yet... So, would my desire to be in control by helping others just be unconscious for me or something?

 

[Such Irony]

I've thought quite a lot about this question. The meaning of "power-seeker" is different for the three. Here is how I understand it:

2 - Seeks power in the form of influence so they can feel that they are helpful.
5 - Seeks power in the form of knowledge so the outside world can be understood and navigated allowing independence to be maintained as a result.
8 - Seeks power in the form of assertion and/or aggression so the outside world cannot rule over them allowing independence to be maintained as a result.

2 seeks social power. "I have value because I am helpful and I am needed and requested by others."
5 seeks intellectual power. "I am competent and able to out-think and solve any problem."
8 seeks physical power. "I cannot be threatened because I've managed to intimidate everything in my vicinity."

All these types confront others as their long-term orientation: http://www.9types.com/writeup/Theory20.htm

I know the examples for the type 5 really ring true for me. I've never really thought of myself as power seeking but looking at it this way, I suppose I am.

 

[sleuthiness]

Assuming power-seeking bleeds into indistinguishable territory at healthy levels, I'd like to know what it becomes once someone has surpassed aspects of their designated integration point.

What if mapping and steering enneagram development were as simple as recognizing how easily we shift not along one integration point but two? It's rather one-dimensional otherwise.

Nobody can explain the tritypes in a way that makes sense nor are the health levels as clearcut as typically illustrated (let's not beat around the bush).

For instance, someone might go from 5 to 8 to 2 or vice versa, along with redesigned growth/stress guidelines for the 8 and 1.

 

[Entropic]

aaahhhhhh I see now. hhhmmm... I think I understand how type 8s like to seek power. I feel like my sister hates subjugating to the world, so if she wants something she will find a way to get it and she doesn't want money to be an issue.

As an example, could be.

She is extremely pushy and impatient and impulsive. ...Is ...that a decentish example?

Impatience and impulsiveness, no. Getting what she wants, yes.

I've never met a five in real life, so I have yet to understand the truth of what you're saying.

Trying to control with knowledge.

And is power-seeking something a power-seeking type wouldn't notice they do?

Most likely no.

I ask this question because ...I've been thinking and I don't feel like I do that. I have a friend who I've typed as a two because she says that she focuses on others' pain to deal with her own. So even though she knows she is suffering it's "better' for her to help others with their pain.

Sounds superego logic but I am not sure if it's 2 logic. Could also be 1 logic. The way 2 controls others is by making those people indebted to the 2. I help you, in return you must now help me.

...I mean, it looks like she knows she is doing that (because she said it explicitly; she says she likes to be people's mommy) ...but I don't find myself trying to control my internal world (or even the external world ...fuck... I am lazy as hell, yo) by focusing on others and trying to be seen as helpful/care for others/whatever the core is of type 2. Also, my mom is a type two and she likes to think she is in control/put together and that she never admits that she does anything wrong (if she does then she'll feel guilty as fuck)

Feeling guilty could just be a general superego thing, and never admitting that one is wrong could definitely be an unhealthy type 1 or 6 kind of thing.

...but I haven't caught myself doing that yet... So, would my desire to be in control by helping others just be unconscious for me or something?

That depends on the type that you are.

 

[Newbyagain]

I didn't realize this. I thought power seeker only referred to Eight, Nine, and One, but I think I get what you are saying. And I did actually read somewhere that Eight, Five, and Nine were the "control" types. So I guess that is the same thing. It makes me question though, if Eights, Nines, and Ones, are the sexual types, then why are they not intense like the Eight... or maybe they are in different ways??? and I guess that leads me to think I don't think Two and Five are power types as much as controlling as in they try very hard to control what brings out their ticks???

 

[Entropic]

I didn't realize this. I thought power seeker only referred to Eight, Nine, and One, but I think I get what you are saying. And I did actually read somewhere that Eight, Five, and Nine were the "control" types. So I guess that is the same thing. It makes me question though, if Eights, Nines, and Ones, are the sexual types, then why are they not intense like the Eight... or maybe they are in different ways??? and I guess that leads me to think I don't think Two and Five are power types as much as controlling as in they try very hard to control what brings out their ticks???

None of this is entirely correct. Type 8, 9 and 1 are not power-seeker types but gut/body types. In enneagram theory, the enneagram is split up in three triad of three types each. The first center is heart and consists of 2, 3 and 4; head consisting of 5, 6, and 7 and lastly gut consisting of 8, 9 and 1. Each triad is associated with one primary emotion, the heart triad being associated with shame, head anxiety/fear and gut anger.

Sexual types is a completely different and separate aspect of enneagram theory that is called instinctual variants. Every person has, in combination with their enneatype, one instinctual subtype and there are three instincts: self-preservation or self-pres (sp), sexual (sx) and social (so/c). I am for example a 5w4 sx type, meaning that I am a core 5 with a 4 wing, and my instinctual subtype variant is that of sexual.

We can then combine the instincts (3x3) and we then receive 9 different instinctual variants based on order of preference. I am for example sx/sp/so or sx/sp for short, since my we only need to know the first two to figure out what the last one is.

Power-seeking as they appear in type 2, 5 and 8 are completely unrelated to everything in the above. Instead, power-seek is an inherent mechanism of the core type which has to do with how the types move between each other, with type 5 being a reaction against 8 and 8 being a reaction against 2. We see a similar logic in the frustration triad (1, 4 and 7) and so on. This just shows that while the types are very different they also all share similar mechanics through interconnectivity.

Power-seek is different between 2, 5 and 8 as the power-seek is reflected through the core type. Power-seek in type 2 is the need to have power over people, and this power over people is achieved when people become indebted to type 2. In type 5, power-seek is the result to control one's mind, to have complete power over mind, and in type 8 it's about seeking power in the environment, to control the environment so it doesn't control you.

 

[Newbyagain]

None of this is entirely correct. Type 8, 9 and 1 are not power-seeker types but gut/body types. In enneagram theory, the enneagram is split up in three triad of three types each. The first center is heart and consists of 2, 3 and 4; head consisting of 5, 6, and 7 and lastly gut consisting of 8, 9 and 1. Each triad is associated with one primary emotion, the heart triad being associated with shame, head anxiety/fear and gut anger.

Sexual types is a completely different and separate aspect of enneagram theory that is called instinctual variants. Every person has, in combination with their enneatype, one instinctual subtype and there are three instincts: self-preservation or self-pres (sp), sexual (sx) and social (so/c). I am for example a 5w4 sx type, meaning that I am a core 5 with a 4 wing, and my instinctual subtype variant is that of sexual.

We can then combine the instincts (3x3) and we then receive 9 different instinctual variants based on order of preference. I am for example sx/sp/so or sx/sp for short, since my we only need to know the first two to figure out what the last one is.

Power-seeking as they appear in type 2, 5 and 8 are completely unrelated to everything in the above. Instead, power-seek is an inherent mechanism of the core type which has to do with how the types move between each other, with type 5 being a reaction against 8 and 8 being a reaction against 2. We see a similar logic in the frustration triad (1, 4 and 7) and so on. This just shows that while the types are very different they also all share similar mechanics through interconnectivity.

Power-seek is different between 2, 5 and 8 as the power-seek is reflected through the core type. Power-seek in type 2 is the need to have power over people, and this power over people is achieved when people become indebted to type 2. In type 5, power-seek is the result to control one's mind, to have complete power over mind, and in type 8 it's about seeking power in the environment, to control the environment so it doesn't control you.

If you look at Richard Rohr's book, he says that the sexual types are the gut triad, the social types are the heart triad, and the self-preservation types are the head triad. I have also read in several places that all of the gut types are power oriented. They take the feelings of aggression which power and aggression are sort of one in the same; they feel in their body and for the Eight, it is managed through overt aggression, the Nine manages through passive aggression, and the One by channeling it into socially approved ways (being next to the social/heart triad) with perfection.

Despite what I keep hearing people say on these big personality websites all over the place, I have never seen any information that caused a light bulb to go off on how any type would be sexual or social or why, and how it all pulls together. It only made sense to me when I read Rohr's book.

So to help you see where I am coming from, look at the most overt types in a triad, because they really speak for the rest of the triad. So for the gut types, the most overt gut type, the Eight, their biggest struggle or vice is lust, meaning they like connection, which is what all the sexual types stand for. But what the Nine and One feel, the Eight just lets it all hang out. Another example, since reading Rohr's book, look at this so-called Sexual Three. I have seen some who have the look of sex appeal and such, but even with that I believe they are dominantly a social fix, because regardless of how fixated they are on relationships, their need for trophies always rules. It seems we could go on and on getting into the nitty gritty on this.

This is another website that I think sort of supports my philosophy. http://www.enneagram.net/subtypeschart.html

And according to this website, if you are a sexual type, your identity is your relationship. I could never imagine a Three think this way.

If I am wrong and somebody has some information or a way of explaining it that adds up, then I really do welcome it, because the other ways it has been explained just doesn't to me so far.

 

[Entropic]

If you look at Richard Rohr's book, he says that the sexual types are the gut triad, the social types are the heart triad, and the self-preservation types are the head triad. I have also read in several places that all of the gut types are power oriented. They take the feelings of aggression which power and aggression are sort of one in the same; they feel in their body and for the Eight, it is managed through overt aggression, the Nine manages through passive aggression, and the One by channeling it into socially approved ways (being next to the social/heart triad) with perfection.

Despite what I keep hearing people say on these big personality websites all over the place, I have never seen any information that caused a light bulb to go off on how any type would be sexual or social or why, and how it all pulls together. It only made sense to me when I read Rohr's book.

So to help you see where I am coming from, look at the most overt types in a triad, because they really speak for the rest of the triad. So for the gut types, the most overt gut type, the Eight, their biggest struggle or vice is lust, meaning they like connection, which is what all the sexual types stand for. But what the Nine and One feel, the Eight just lets it all hang out. Another example, since reading Rohr's book, look at this so-called Sexual Three. I have seen some who have the look of sex appeal and such, but even with that I believe they are dominantly a social fix, because regardless of how fixated they are on relationships, their need for trophies always rules. It seems we could go on and on getting into the nitty gritty on this.

This is another website that I think sort of supports my philosophy. http://www.enneagram.net/subtypeschart.html

And according to this website, if you are a sexual type, your identity is your relationship. I could never imagine a Three think this way.

If I am wrong and somebody has some information or a way of explaining it that adds up, then I really do welcome it, because the other ways it has been explained just doesn't to me so far.

I think the simplest explanation here is simply that they operate on different definitions of power and sexual. I have not read Rohr but what he suggests (assuming you understand him correctly based on what you write here) is not in line with general enneagram theory. I don't adhere to any specific school exactly, but when we talk about the sexual instinct it's not about lust or sex or anything of the sort. It's about energy, what drives us and the points of focus that come with it. Did you look closer at the link you provided yourself from Katherine Fauvre? She specifically gives brief descriptions how the subtypes affect each core type at the bottom. Looks like you overlooked it.

And of course 3s can be relationships-focused just as any human being can. A sexual type 3 would focus their need for image recognition and deceit towards the sexual, so they would probably shape themselves according to the partners they find attractive so these people will find them attractive in turn, for example.

I really can't be bothered to explain more than this. You just seem to severely misunderstand how the instincts operate.

 

[Newbyagain]

I think the simplest explanation here is simply that they operate on different definitions of power and sexual. I have not read Rohr but what he suggests (assuming you understand him correctly based on what you write here) is not in line with general enneagram theory. I don't adhere to any specific school exactly, but when we talk about the sexual instinct it's not about lust or sex or anything of the sort. It's about energy, what drives us and the points of focus that come with it. Did you look closer at the link you provided yourself from Katherine Fauvre? She specifically gives brief descriptions how the subtypes affect each core type at the bottom. Looks like you overlooked it.

And of course 3s can be relationships-focused just as any human being can. A sexual type 3 would focus their need for image recognition and deceit towards the sexual, so they would probably shape themselves according to the partners they find attractive so these people will find them attractive in turn, for example.

I really can't be bothered to explain more than this. You just seem to severely misunderstand how the instincts operate.

This is all theory and my theory. Nobody is the king of the Enneagram. And no I did not overlook the bottom. The bottom part says points, not types. We all have a little of everything in us.

The sexual instinct is related to sex. Sex is a physical act. Gut people are very physical in nature and people of the sexual instinct, sex is an important part of their life because that is where they find connection.

 

[Entropic]

This is all theory and my theory. Nobody is the king of the Enneagram. And no I did not overlook the bottom. The bottom part says points, not types. We all have a little of everything in us.

The sexual instinct is related to sex. Sex is a physical act. Gut people are very physical in nature and people of the sexual instinct, sex is an important part of their life because that is where they find connection.

You clearly weren't looking enough. Notice the numbers that I marked in red:


The comment "point concerns" simply describes the points of focus for each enneatype and how the instinctual energy is shaped and shapes the enneatypes. As a sexual 5, I am concerned about connecting with people through knowledge. I seek intimates by utilizing knowledge. It's really not that complicated.

 

[Newbyagain]

You clearly weren't looking enough. Notice the numbers that I marked in red:


The comment "point concerns" simply describes the points of focus for each enneatype and how the instinctual energy is shaped and shapes the enneatypes. As a sexual 5, I am concerned about connecting with people through knowledge. I seek intimates by utilizing knowledge. It's really not that complicated.

No, I did read it. I said I have my theory. It's nothing worth getting hostile and rude over.

Advice for Type Fives:

“The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.”
― Socrates

“Confidence is ignorance. If you're feeling cocky, it's because there's something you don't know.”
― Eoin Colfer, Artemis Fowl

“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.”
― Stephen Hawking

“The possession of knowledge does not kill the sense of wonder and mystery. There is always more mystery.”
― Anaïs Nin

“The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat.”
― Confucius

“Reading furnishes the mind only with materials of knowledge; it is thinking that makes what we read ours.”
― John Locke

 

[RaptorWizard]

My favorte form of power is "will"-power. The will is the world mover. It's what makes stuff happen. Even the creation itself, assuming it sprang from a mental force, was moved by the will of a divine mind.

Other forms of power though, like the mass control of sheep, are devoid of good purpose and accomplish nothing but affliction.

 

[Entropic]

No, I did read it. I said I have my theory. It's nothing worth getting hostile and rude over.

So if I point out a clear contradiction of yours, I am hostile? The sx instinct is not all about sex. That is misunderstanding what sx as an instinctual energy is in my opinion. Sx is about finding an intimate partner and one way you can be intimate with someone else is to have sex, but it's definitely not the only way you can be intimate. Also, gut types aren't necessarily interested in sex or seek sex. That is not what makes them gut types.

You are free to have your own theory but your theory is clearly inconsistent with the actual body of knowledge that is written about the instincts.

Also, had I been in a more pissy mood I might have taken offense by the fact that you think these people represent 5s or 5-ness with those quotes. I think it shows a poor conceptual understanding of what it means to be a type 5. That you have the audacity to then consider me hostile and rude is quite ironic as such but whatever.

 

[violet_crown]

Type 2, 5 and 8 are the power-seekers in the enneagram. What does it mean to be a power-seeker? What does it mean to be in possession of power? How does this power-seek manifest in the three types?

I equate power with agency and independence.

Also, another thing to think about is that type 5 integrates towards 8, 8 integrates towards 2 but two integrates towards 4. Why not back to type 5?

2s are kind of the wild card to me in this set, and they are probably the e-type into whom I have the least insight. One theory that's always held a lot of interest for me is that of the integration point also being the individual's "inner child". 2s power-seeking on an emotional/social plane through the creation of dependency in those around them does seem to map onto the average 4's tendency towards emotional control. Thinking of 2s as 4s on the inside also lends motivation to their intense desire to be loved. It suggests that at their innermost they are keenly aware of their individuality, what makes them special, and rejection of their love and attention is tantamount to a denial of those qualities. So the average 2 really loves no one so much as they love themselves, and insecurity drives them to control the responses of those around them to that self. Integrating to 4 is like the 2 basically them being secure enough for them to let their freak flag fly without need for external validation. More briefly, 2s integrate to 4 by learning to love themselves.

That's my theory at least.