How would you differentiate between Fours and Nines?

[Southern Kross]

4s = letting their emotions all out!
9s = keeping their emotions in for the sake of harmony

4s = drama
9s = no-drama-Obama

A full blown Four will respond to an offense by being combative, childish, and making a fool out of ourself at times. A full blown Nine, wont respond. You all are simply too good to. It's sort of a stubborn snootiness.

These are overstated, inaccurate stereotypes.

People try to make 4s out to be hysterical drama queens. 4s are emotional people but they don't necessarily wear their heart on their sleeves. I'm far more emotionally contained than almost everyone I've met. And it's not just the 4w5s; look at Lady Gaga (a 4w3). She's so chill, composed and not very emotionally demonstrative at all.

I also dislike conflict but I can cope with it better than a 9 - and it's only under extreme circumstances that I become combative and childish.

4's emotions are volatile; 9's emotions are stable. 4 tries to dig as deep into hurt as possible; 9 tries to avoid hurt if possible.

This is a much more accurate summary.

4s like to revel in their sense of personal misery and really dig deep into their emotions whereas 9 try to avoid feeling anything, especially pertaining negative emotions, at all. 4s are also reactive in conflict, meaning that when they feel emotionally slighted they will run away and expect others to chase them. If people chase it means they mean something. 9s are as a whole not reactive and tend to do the opposite because 9s dislike conflict.

4 is situated in the heart center so the primary issue they deal with is shame which they cover up with their type's passion being called envy whereas 9 is a gut type and the primary emotion they deal with is anger which they cover up with their type's passion being called sloth. As the words imply, sloth and envy are very different although there are similarities here between the 4 and 9 in that in order for the 4 to be envious, there must always be a constant compare and contrast due to a sense of deficit within themselves. What they have or what they are is never good enough. 9s also contrast and compare themselves to other people but whereas the 4's envy will make them take upon an identity they are not because they are envious, 9s take upon identities they are not because they have difficulties separating themselves from the world around them. Both are ego types but whereas the 4 has a strong sense of ego the 9 does not. The 4's life desire is to create an ego that is unique whereas a 9's life desire is to have their ego entirely merged into the world around them.

Other differences include that 4s suffer from a masochist personailty and often attempt to attract a rescuer. 9 suffer from indolence and psychospiritual laziness which pretty much leads to the opposite attitude of there never being a problem. This is part because 4 is a part of the reactive triad and 9 the positive outlook as it is the positive outlook that makes the 9 inclined to forget and ignore hurts. Both 4s and 9s are prone to create fantasies in their heads about how reality should really be like, but 4s do it because they desire to be something which they are not due to envy. This cannot be better expressed than in the story of Cinderella where Cinderella is looking outside her window, sighing that what if she was a noble princess and she could go to the ball like the others. This is very opposite to how 9s create fantansies because in this scenario the 9 would think more in the lines of, I'm having it so good with the prince being so nice to people in this country, hosting balls for all the nobles to participate in. Our prince is so nice, and they would think this irregardless of whether as a whole, the prince is in fact "nice" or not.

There are probably other similarities and differences but these are the one I can think of from the top of my head.

This is also pretty great.

 

[Newbyagain]

These are overstated, inaccurate stereotypes.

People try to make 4s out to be hysterical drama queens. 4s are emotional people but they don't necessarily wear their heart on their sleeves. I'm far more emotionally contained than almost everyone I've met. And it's not just the 4w5s; look at Lady Gaga (a 4w3). She's so chill, composed and not very emotionally demonstrative at all.

I also dislike conflict but I can cope with it better than a 9 - and it's only under extreme circumstances that I become combative and childish.

I don't mean that we are that way on the regular. I should have put, I mean when we get pushed, and we are not on our best behavior, this is the difference in how we react. I only say that, because even when you mature, you still sense that tendency in yourself. I like to look at the extremes, because I think that's when you see your personality the most, when you are the most flamboyant.

 

[mintleaf]

I'm not sure why this thread got started up again

some of these descriptions are kind of insulting and vague, to be honest. especially based on what LeaT said, it seems like 9s are perceived as naive, avoidant, and somewhat vacant. I don't doubt that I'm a 9, but none of these traits apply well to me or most other 9s I've encountered.

4s and 9s are similar in the sense that both types are withdrawn types but I think that's also pretty much where the similarity ends. As others mentioned, 4s are emotionally volatile, 9s emotionally stable. 4s like to revel in their sense of personal misery and really dig deep into their emotions whereas 9 try to avoid feeling anything, especially pertaining negative emotions, at all. 4s are also reactive in conflict, meaning that when they feel emotionally slighted they will run away and expect others to chase them. If people chase it means they mean something. 9s are as a whole not reactive and tend to do the opposite because 9s dislike conflict.

and as Loki mentioned, 9s are not necessarily emotionally stable.
I agree with everything else but the implication that 9s can't handle conflict. I think of it as a hatred of disharmony; conflict can be a way of acknowledging underlying tension so that it can be resolved. Avoidance of in-your-face conflict as well as under-the-surface issues stalls resolution and fails to create a real sense of peace. Which is what mature 9s realize they want and don't feel shy about going after; less mature 9s are apparently content with avoidance. But if a person values reconciliation, why would he avoid the process?

Edit: I didn't mean to come across as if I'm referring to myself as mature. I'm not, just aware of where I need to be.

9s take upon identities they are not because they have difficulties separating themselves from the world around them. Both are ego types but whereas the 4 has a strong sense of ego the 9 does not. The 4's life desire is to create an ego that is unique whereas a 9's life desire is to have their ego entirely merged into the world around them.

What do you mean by the bolded?

 

[PeaceBaby]

some of these descriptions are kind of insulting and vague, to be honest. especially based on what LeaT said, it seems like 9s are perceived as naive, avoidant, and somewhat vacant. I don't doubt that I'm a 9, but none of these traits apply well to me or most other 9s I've encountered.

I suspect you feeling this way could be due to you being so dom, like myself. Many 9's IRL can be very much in the woodwork and not fully 'checked in'.

Do you know your tritype?

 

[mintleaf]

I suspect you feeling this way could be due to you being so dom, like myself. Many 9's IRL can be very much in the woodwork and not fully 'checked in'.

Do you know your tritype?

I think it's 952 - 9w1 5w6 2w3.

why do you think it has to do with being so dom?

 

[PeaceBaby]

Interesting. If you have an extra 10 bucks, do this one and then let's talk tritype in more depth.
The Professional Enneagram Test and Tritype® Test: http://www.enneagram.net/tests/index.html#fullenneacards

For me, the social instinct pushes me to engage with the world more, I think, so I suspect I seem more present. And more ENFP in appearance as a result, since people do not believe I am an introvert. (Especially with 7 in my tritype.)

So, since I identify with 9w1 so/sx as you do, I am interested to see how far down the rabbit hole we can go here. Share your results and thoughts.

 

[highlander]

When I think of 9s, the primary thing that comes to mind is suppressed anger.

I came across the following video recently, which describes the different Enneagram types and how they respond to anger. In addition to helping to understand each of the types, I also think there is value in being able to discern one type from another (i.e., 9 vs. 4).

 

[Thalassa]

9s like repression and 4s like expression. I do think 4s are more dramatic, but 4w3 more than 4w5; still, even 4w5 are probably more likely to assert their identity.

9s IME swing or vary between being overly passive and utterly non-obtrusive to being irritating passive-aggressive, quietly holier than thou "peace makers." Healthy 9s have great energy and can be very spiritual and "live and let live" kinds of people; unhealthy nines have a tendency to bury their head in the sand, live in denial, or even emit a kind of passive-to-passive-aggressive anger that is absolutely impossible for me to tolerate.

I was close to a 9w1 for a while who used to take pride in saying things like "you wouldn't even know if I was dying, I save face that well" and he didn't understand why I would get so upset by random people or even get involved with random conversations. However, the 1 wing gave him a pretentious, perfectionistic snobby streak that he simply hid under the more agreeable and/or taciturn non-confrontational facade.

However, his tactics can lead toward outright lying to make other people look bad while he's just like the innocent good guy who didn't do anything wrong, and passive-aggressively trying to provoke people in a pathetic (though sometimes effective) attempt to unleash his repressed anger; lots of anger at his mother.

On the other hand, I have a 9w1 friend who is female, and she is one of the BEST people at resolving conflicts, she really tries to see both sides of everything, she has the most amazing ability to play referee in a very subtle way, and she's overall just a very peaceful individual. Not saying she doesn't have her issues, I'm just saying that she was a healthier 9w1.

4s by contrast want you to know how unique or outstanding they are, even if it's in a quiet or non-verbal manner, and tend to be more comfortable in the realm of emotions.

An unhealthy 4 would be more likely to be overly self-absorbed and self-congratulatory or clingy in a very dependent way, like a 2.

 

[Thalassa]

These are overstated, inaccurate stereotypes.

People try to make 4s out to be hysterical drama queens. 4s are emotional people but they don't necessarily wear their heart on their sleeves. I'm far more emotionally contained than almost everyone I've met. And it's not just the 4w5s; look at Lady Gaga (a 4w3). She's so chill, composed and not very emotionally demonstrative at all.

That's not how I would describe Lady Gaga.

9s can actually be utterly detached from their feelings, causing them to have this peaceful, push-over "everyone smile and hold hands" facade to protect themselves from their own anger or assertion of their own will (because they don't want to be abandoned from their ideal of holy love), or if they're really unhealthy ...they're just fucking cold. Like literally "I feel nothing for you." A REALLY EXTREMELY unhealthy 9w1 is a nightmare. Like "who are you? do I know you? did you ever exist? I feel nothing for anyone" kind of shit. I think a really extremely unhealthy 9w8 expresses anger more openly, but inappropriately, like the sleeping bear who snaps and suddenly punches a hole in the wall, or who has or practices "secret" acts of domination while trying to appear socially more easy going.

4s don't do this. If a 4 is a trainwreck, you'll see it openly in one form or another.

I almost think a 4 would be inclined to "expose" an unhealthy repressed 9; I wondered for a long time if I was a 4w3 for this reason, because I constantly wanted to force the 9w1 to emote, and would publicly expose his bullshit to others he had duped with his facade.

I also dislike conflict but I can cope with it better than a 9 - and it's only under extreme circumstances that I become combative and childish.

A 9 under extreme circumstances can disintegrate and become reactive and paranoid like a 6...as in "you're out to get me" or "people are stalking me" or "I can't trust you, you're a whore."

People almost want to idealize 9s, like they're every pushy dictator or male chauvinistic asshole's wet dream, but they have their own detached, deep freeze form of evil at the bottom out levels.

This is a much more accurate summary.


This is also pretty great.

I agree.

 

[Southern Kross]

That's not how I would describe Lady Gaga.

I get why you would say that. I admit I'm not hugely knowledgeable about her, so if you are, I would submit to that. But every interview I've seen she doesn't show much 'real' emotion and she has this 'evenness' in her manner. She uses very emotive language and speaks about very emo things but that doesn't translate to her means of communicating that (ie. the form doesn't match the content). Her music and clothing is very expressive but then 4s are generally more so in their creative outlets.

I also think she's very open either, even though she give the appearance of being so. If she 'open', it's usually a very controlled (perhaps slightly calculated) 3-style version of openness - you don't seem to see behind the curtain much.

I don't know. Maybe being a fellow 4 makes me see the same qualities differently. I look at her and see the mechanisms working underneath, because I know how they work from the inside - if that makes sense.

4s don't do this. If a 4 is a trainwreck, you'll see it openly in one form or another.

Yeah, I think that's the point. 4s can't conceal their meltdowns. If they're a mess, their unhealthiness is obvious. Unhealthiness in many of the other types can be disguised (including 9s).

I almost think a 4 would be inclined to "expose" an unhealthy repressed 9; I wondered for a long time if I was a 4w3 for this reason, because I constantly wanted to force the 9w1 to emote, and would publicly expose his bullshit to others he had duped with his facade.

Maybe. Personally, my dad is a repressed 9w8, so I'm used to not getting much out of 9s. Occasionally, I will prod to make him commit to some sort of statement about how he feels about something (like a movie or a song) or at least to offer a real opinion that isn't just a repetition of what others have said. Mostly it's just a waste of time, though.

EDIT: Actually I was just thinking how my e6 mum often attempts to force my e9 dad to emote. It really seems to irritate her; much more than me or most other people. Maybe it's a 6 thing after all. I mean 6s do tend to have a need for truth and may go to great lengths to expose what they perceive to be untruths. And perhaps the 9s passivity and lack of emotional expression can seem like an untruth to 6s

 

[EJCC]

Bringin' [MENTION=15773]greenfairy[/MENTION] into this thread b/c she was stuck between these two types as well, if I recall correctly. Loads of useful data here.

 

[Nicki]

9s are often detached while 4s are the opposite. 9s can be seriously apathetic while 4s can be seriously over-dramatic.

 

[Entropic]

What do you mean by the bolded?

I am referring to the fact that the coping mechanism of the 9 is to identify with the external world rather than the internal, because by identifying with and merging with the external world, the 9 thinks they can achieve ultimate harmony and thus, holy love. It's similar to how the 5 desires to find the ultimate truth so they can use this truth to unite with the parent. In a similar sense, the 9 thinks if they can lose themselves entirely and thus achieve what they think is holy love, they will experience actual love again.

especially based on what LeaT said, it seems like 9s are perceived as naive, avoidant, and somewhat vacant. I don't doubt that I'm a 9, but none of these traits apply well to me or most other 9s I've encountered.

This is true for average to unhealthy 9s. The very goal of the 9 is to achieve self-awareness, and they have been applicable to pretty much almost every 9 I've come across on the forum one way or another (not just this forum but also PerC). This is psychospiritual laziness - the refusal to introspect and accept the deeper truths in order to achieve self-awareness. I do wish to point out that my exprience/reality is shaped by my type and my interaction with type 9. Maybe your perception differs but I often find that 9s are extremely plagued by this mental haziness that they use to cover up reality, which is why 9s are also often described as idealists. You may not agree with this perception of yourself but then you might perhaps ought to ask yourself if you disagree because you are doing exactly the same thing, i.e. trying to idealize reality because you refuse to see this aspect of yourself just like almost every 9 I've come across thus far has, or do you do it because reality is exactly how you perceive it?

And of course, a 9, especially an unhealthy 9, can be reactive like a 6. I never claimed otheriwse. But if we speak of general pathological tendencies and study type as a whole, 9s dislike and avoid conflict. This is how they withdraw by trying to create harmony and "giving up" on themselves by not asserting themselves. In contrast, a 5 withdraws in order to think over the situation and understand their feelings (I would say there's a very specific 8-strategy nature over the way the 8 withdraws) and 4s do it to instigate an emotional reaction.

 

[Amargith]

9s are often detached while 4s are the opposite. 9s can be seriously apathetic while 4s can be seriously over-dramatic.

Nothing more fun than swinging from one to the other as a 497

 

[greenfairy]

9s are often detached while 4s are the opposite. 9s can be seriously apathetic while 4s can be seriously over-dramatic.

I think I can be either, but more often detached.

Thanks, EJCC. I shall glance over the thread for clues.

 

[brainheart]

4s and 9s are similar in the sense that both types are withdrawn types but I think that's also pretty much where the similarity ends. As others mentioned, 4s are emotionally volatile, 9s emotionally stable. 4s like to revel in their sense of personal misery and really dig deep into their emotions whereas 9 try to avoid feeling anything, especially pertaining negative emotions, at all.

Er, no.

I'll give Abraham Lincoln as an example, pretty much universally typed as a 9w1, and a person who had clinical, recurring depression. From here: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2005/10/lincolns-great-depression/304247/ I highly recommend reading the whole article.

Lincoln "told Me that he felt like Committing Suicide often," remembered Mentor Graham, a schoolteacher, and his neighbors mobilized to keep him safe. One friend recalled, "Mr Lincolns friends … were Compelled to keep watch and ward over Mr Lincoln, he being from the sudden shock somewhat temporarily deranged. We watched during storms—fogs—damp gloomy weather … for fear of an accident." Some villagers worried that he'd end up insane. After several weeks an older couple in the area took him into their home. Bowling Green, the large, merry justice of the peace, and his wife, Nancy, took care of Lincoln for a week or two. When he had improved somewhat, they let him go, but he was, Mrs. Green said, "quite melancholy for months."

Robert L. Wilson, who was elected to the Illinois state legislature with Lincoln in 1836, found him amiable and fun-loving. But one day Lincoln told him something surprising. Lincoln said "that although he appeared to enjoy life rapturously, Still he was the victim of terrible melancholly," Wilson recalled. "He Sought company, and indulged in fun and hilarity without restraint, or Stint as to time[.] Still when by himself, he told me that he was so overcome with mental depression, that he never dare carry a knife in his pocket."

...For Lincoln in this winter many things were awry. Even as he faced the possibility that his political career was sunk, it seemed likely that he was inextricably bound to a woman he didn't love (Mary Todd) and that Joshua Speed was going to either move away to Kentucky or stay in Illinois and marry Matilda Edwards, the young woman whom Lincoln said he really wanted but could not even approach, because of his bond with Todd. Then came a stretch of intensely cold weather, which, Lincoln later wrote, "my experience clearly proves to be verry severe on defective nerves." Once again he began to speak openly about his misery, hopelessness, and thoughts of suicide—alarming his friends. "Lincoln went Crazy," Speed recalled. "—had to remove razors from his room—take away all Knives and other such dangerous things—&—it was terrible."

... On January 23 Lincoln wrote to his law partner in Washington: "I am now the most miserable man living. If what I feel were equally distributed to the whole human family, there would not be one cheerful face on the earth. Whether I shall ever be better I can not tell; I awfully forebode I shall not. To remain as I am is impossible; I must die or be better, it appears to me."

Here's a poem, said to be written by Lincoln:

Here, where the lonely hooting owl
Sends forth his midnight moans,
Fierce wolves shall o'er my carcase growl,
Or buzzards pick my bones.

No fellow-man shall learn my fate,
Or where my ashes lie;
Unless by beasts drawn round their bait,
Or by the ravens' cry.

Yes! I've resolved the deed to do,
And this the place to do it:
This heart I'll rush a dagger through
Though I in hell should rue it!

 

[brainheart]

I also just found this, and I like it-

http://structuralenneagram.com/?p=37

With their pleasant, easy-going exteriors, Nine-wing-Ones are frequently underestimated. Some conventional Enneagram writers describe them as lazy and indifferent; however, many are quite industrious and effective. At its highest intensity, this personality melds penetrating insight into what makes people and societies tick with soaring dreams as to what they may become.

Traditional Enneagram descriptions emphasize the “deadly sin” of sloth for Nines of either wing. At various times, you may experience Nine-wing-Ones as anything from accommodating to stubborn, industrious to indolent, judgmental to accepting. It all depends on the match between their external and internal realities, and you, of course, cannot know how those match up unless they tell you, and they may well not tell you.

When I give my own sorting test to Nine-wing-Ones, they resonate with six to eight of the conventional, single-number Enneagram types—but never with type Eight. Thus you may know them by their apparent contradictions. Whether you see it in them or not, they sense within themselves many of the characteristics of the majority of Enneagram points. Others explain this fact away by saying that Nine-wing-Ones are out of touch with themselves, but it seems to me that they are simply well-integrated.

For example, although Nine-wing-Ones generally use detached perspective Five and may seem to be “out of body”, they do get good rapport and typically make others feel comfortable. This leads me to conclude that most of them must not be shut out of perspective Seven since Seven’s ability to enter the other’s mental or energetic space is necessary for rapport.

Visual tip-offs to the Nine-wing-One: They often use slow hand gestures. They may nod their heads a lot. They are not necessarily agreeing with you; they are encouraging you to continue and saying, “I hear you.” They sometimes have a slouchy posture and lean against the back of the chair or, if standing, against a wall. They will also match others’ posture and gestures when they are in rapport, which is often.

Probable examples of personality type Nine-wing-One are Barack Obama, Abraham Lincoln, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Carl Jung, Joseph Campbell, Walt Disney, Queen Elizabeth II, Henry Fonda, Jimmy Stewart, Garrison Keillor, Princess Grace of Monaco, Rose Kennedy, George Lucas, and the Dalai Lama.

Being less influenced than most by perspective Eight’s need for interpersonal validation, Nine-wing-Ones generally don’t take things personally. This, along with their reliance on perspective Five, allows them to see all sides of an issue. Having perspective Four in their makeup, they feel separate from others. Having a perspective-One component, they feel a strong sense of purpose, even if they can’t quite articulate it.

Finally, Nine-wing-Ones’ concerns and aspirations will be found at the intersection of reality and their ideals. If there is a good enough match, they will be content and relatively inactive. If there is not a match, then their choice of goals is apparent: they must either withdraw from that particular environment or change it. If Nine-wing-Ones have adopted a view of themselves as intellectuals, then they will set out to educate an uninformed world. If they view themselves as spiritual, then they will model holiness for a materialistic society. If they have had instilled in them a sense of their obligation to lead, then they will study, plan, and act toward that end. They unpretentiously allow themselves to be used and used up on behalf of their goals.

 

[Nicki]

I think I can be either, but more often detached.

Thanks, EJCC. I shall glance over the thread for clues.

Maybe you have a strong 4 fix?

 

[WALMART]

Lincoln? How absolutely fascinating, I wouldn't have imagined

 

[mintleaf]

Maybe your perception differs but I often find that 9s are extremely plagued by this mental haziness that they use to cover up reality, which is why 9s are also often described as idealists. You may not agree with this perception of yourself but then you might perhaps ought to ask yourself if you disagree because you are doing exactly the same thing, i.e. trying to idealize reality because you refuse to see this aspect of yourself just like almost every 9 I've come across thus far has, or do you do it because reality is exactly how you perceive it?

Depends on what's meant by idealism. There's "the cherishing or pursuit of principles, purposes, goals, etc." definition and then there's "the tendency to represent/perceive things in an ideal form, or as they might or should be rather than as they are." I identify with the first. One of my most strongly held "principles" is to avoid the second definition. I've honestly never struggled much with it. I'm incredibly more afraid of interpreting the world incorrectly than of discovering the world to be less than ideal.

I would think that a lot of other 9s relate to this definition of idealism, too, rather than to the covering up of reality. Like you said, that only happens when a 9 over-focuses on the external world and doesn't devote enough energy to reflection.

It's interesting that you brought up the concept of internal/external in relation to 9s. Like you said, 9s seek a balance / merging of the two. So I would say that unhealthy nines can go one of two ways: unhealthy focus on external -> weak intrapersonal skills (sense of self, introspection, reflection, etc.); unhealthy focus on internal -> lack of engagement with the world. Would you agree with that?

And of course, a 9, especially an unhealthy 9, can be reactive like a 6. I never claimed otheriwse. But if we speak of general pathological tendencies and study type as a whole, 9s dislike and avoid conflict. This is how they withdraw by trying to create harmony and "giving up" on themselves by not asserting themselves. In contrast, a 5 withdraws in order to think over the situation and understand their feelings (I would say there's a very specific 8-strategy nature over the way the 8 withdraws) and 4s do it to instigate an emotional reaction.

Yep, most of what you've written is fair enough if we're talking about general tendencies. I just want to reiterate that 9's detachment as a defense mechanism is not always cognitive (i.e. mental haziness). A lot of the time it's just emotional.