[Traditional Enneagram] Wimpiest Enneatype

[A window to the soul]

Yet he somehow survived 4 years of imprisonment and hard labor in 19th century Siberia, lifelong epilepsy, and mostly a string of professional failures and setbacks. And instead of curling up in a ball of emo bitterness, he said "Life is in ourselves and not in the external. To be a human being among human beings, and remain one forever, no matter what misfortunes befall, not to become depressed, and not to falter--this is what life is, herein lies its task." In the end, he stomped a giant footprint not only on literature, but psychology and philosophy as well. I, for one, am humbled by this particular wimp.

I am humbled.

 

[You]

i bet he isn't even a 6. lets ask him --- ooh yeah, he's dead. wimp.

 

[Rail Tracer]

7 scores and 8 years ago.

Think hard and clear on this one. It is no wonder he is one of the highest rated and venerated person out there in American history.

 

[ceecee]

yep, seeming and being are two different things.

in such regards, 9s are probably the most spineful for standing their peace no matter what.

i do nothing if someone hits me, but thats cause i dont see a point in doing anything, 9 does same to conserve peace, and if stron 1 wing, might even choose to remove the person from this realm as to prevent it from happening to others. (usually i choose so for the other persons life is anyways not worth a single attention, and probably the reason they attack me.. since proceeding into an action wouldnt change anything, the damage is done.)

EDIT:
and im far too intuitive to even notice the attack until its done.. (ughf, expecting others to have morals when they really dont <.<)
just makes me double blind, or triple as a 4w3 i couldnt care less of people who intentionally fail their lives by alcohol or egoisticness.

My husband is a 9 most likely and I pity the fool who would actually hit him.

 

[Vilku]

psychopaths are born, not made. (they are genetically different than normal humans and have a completely dysfunctional amygdala)
as for a sociopath, I'd say the most likely types are 3, 7w8 and 8

overall, I view the types at their worst as
1: OCD, hateful bigotry
2: entitled narcissism
3: grandiose narcissism
4: borderline personality, narcissism
5: schizoid
6: OCD
7: histrionic, Peter Pan syndrome
8: anti social personality disorder
9s: schizoid, avoidant personality disorder

actually, some claim psychopathy is a personality disorder (Se + Fe dominance/loop?)

and it would make sense, since one can abandon empathy completely just by will and thats what psychopaths are, they simply dont value empathy thus their skill of it deprives. and at some point has disappeared completely.
brains are muscles, of course parts of it will disappear ocmpletely if you dont have use for them.

i watched one document of psychopaths, and psychopathy seemed to fit se/Fe loop perfectly and how they described sociopaths, was as they had empathy and didnt liek what they do, but did anyways.

and se/fe loops dont really care at all for the others, like psychoes so it wouldnt fit sociopathy.

maybe those parts of brain have even evolved off due to monetary culture as it is, psychopathy is genetic.

the number of estps is huge so itd be no surprise if plenty of them chose to become psychopaths since thats what western culture values. what enviroment values, you become, or you resist.

(also modern medicines are a likely cause for psychopathy, ahem, anti depressants. what they do? suppress your felings, you can see the connection + humans brain chemicals were never made to be tempered with.)

A wimp is defined in the dictionary as a timid, unadventurous coward, so through the process of elimination...

4 is a withdrawn heart type
6 is a compliant head type
8 is a assertive instinct type
9 is a withdrawn instinct type

Hmmmm... 4 or 6...

I don't know y'all, type 4 looks pretty wimpy.

yeah, im unadventurous. i prefer inaction over action in the face of a problem.

but then, i dont long for either of those, since i prefer to adventure inside my own head over repeating limited amount of patterns my physical exterior is able to simulate, when my interior can simulate thousands the times of it and even poses the ability to translate it outside in various forms of art and creativity.

i accept the fact this existence we live in is far greater than i, and my influence over it is limited but within myself, i have more control to than anyone else alive these days. and my perception of the world.

subjectively inwards, wimpiness = unhealthiness of will
subjectively outwards, wimpiness = lack of what you value.
thus it allows the possibility of 8 being the most wimpy in the eyes of four, since they lack everything we care for. and the other way too. 4 and 8 are like opposite sides of a coin, 8s try to control outwards 4s inward.


we should come to the resolve there is no universal definitions. everything is subjective, and promoting something subjective as universal wont change that fact.

so, wimpiness in statistical sense = the most popular ennea types view on lacking what they value of life.

+ that the ennea user is a grammar nazi enough to preach their definition as the sole correct one <.<

My husband is a 9 most likely and I pity the fool who would actually hit him.

yep, id say 9 is the least wimpy of all types. they hold their values both inside and out, ready to make even a physical stand if necessary.

while i have millions of values in but not ready to do much of anything else than friendly influence to better the world with them.

9 is, after all, in body triad.

in that sense, 9 might hold their values more firmly but in the end, is one who likely less influenced others. (depends what ennea it is to be compared to, and as always, in statistical avarage sense since every ennea is capable of it. but bring me one 4 whose life goal isnt to influence the world in a positive way.)

 

[Kasper]

it will if they aren't integrated. an average/unhealthy can be great at comforting and mediating, but if you're talking about facing/dealing with a problem directly and being willing to deal with any conflict that comes up, we're talking about an integrated 9

You ignore that the 9s out there have an 8 wing?

And even without that, having a strong preference for avoiding conflict doesn't mean someone is by default a "weak, cowardly, or ineffectual person", they may be, or they may simply be focused on other aims.

I won't attack you, but I will defend me.

yep, id say 9 is the least wimpy of all types. they hold their values both inside and out, ready to make even a physical stand if necessary.

9 is, after all, in body triad.

in that sense, 9 might hold their values more firmly but in the end, is one who likely less influenced others..

If I have a vote on that mine is "lol no, I ain't got no Fi".

9s are a gut type, but they are the gut type that is out of touch with being a gut type. Dilema.

 

[Hazashin]

actually, some claim psychopathy is a personality disorder (Se + Fe dominance/loop?)

and it would make sense, since one can abandon empathy completely just by will and thats what psychopaths are, they simply dont value empathy thus their skill of it deprives. and at some point has disappeared completely.
brains are muscles, of course parts of it will disappear ocmpletely if you dont have use for them.

i watched one document of psychopaths, and psychopathy seemed to fit se/Fe loop perfectly and how they described sociopaths, was as they had empathy and didnt liek what they do, but did anyways.

and se/fe loops dont really care at all for the others, like psychoes so it wouldnt fit sociopathy.

maybe those parts of brain have even evolved off due to monetary culture as it is, psychopathy is genetic.

the number of estps is huge so itd be no surprise if plenty of them chose to become psychopaths since thats what western culture values. what enviroment values, you become, or you resist.

(also modern medicines are a likely cause for psychopathy, ahem, anti depressants. what they do? suppress your felings, you can see the connection + humans brain chemicals were never made to be tempered with.)

Well, while I think it is true that many psychopaths are in Se/Fe loops, I don't think that is the cause for their disorder; rather, it is a byproduct of it.

However, the Se/Fe loop shares great similarities with psychopathy. For example, in the movie American Psycho, the main character was in an Se/Fe loop (although it was actually an Fe/Se loop, as he was an ESFJ).

 

[Vilku]

If I have a vote on that mine is "lol no, I ain't got no Fi".

could you elaborate what you mean by that?

Well, while I think it is true that many psychopaths are in Se/Fe loops, I don't think that is the cause for their disorder; rather, it is a byproduct of it.

However, the Se/Fe loop shares great similarities with psychopathy. For example, in the movie American Psycho, the main character was in an Se/Fe loop (although it was actually an Fe/Se loop, as he was an ESFJ).

how came you to that conclusion? once in a loop, the original type doesnt have any effects upon the person.
and actually, werent all the "killings" just his imagination which he thought to be real?
i dont recall Se being a function which would leave space for imagination, not in any case.
people with Se get depressed if they use Ne to construct imaginaion worlds, cause they cant have it, yet they long to have it all in touchable way.

and with the loop cause, im not suggesting its the only way, just one more way to get it. humans are, like all animals, dynamic changing creatures and especially if you place us in a world of competition.. then psychopathy is the way to adapt. like for crocodiles, no empathy is the norm. and that is supported as the norm in many western countries by the majority of power holders who then influence their view on the rest.

it shouldnt come as a surprise to anyone if you dont use some function, it deprives, and a life time not using it and its gone.
in that way, all loops can cause deprivation of some necessary brain area if it goes on for a too long period.
especially if it starts from young age, like kids who accept the no empathy cultural norm... cause parents taught them, but i refused. even though my family was like that, but couldnt say everyone is able to resist.

you have to consider, what is the true origin of psychopathy?
is it, a simple decision/belief someone has, that empathy is useless, taken to the extreme.
it does seem we are our own architechts of our brains, that we can choose whatever of the available routes, and available routes are those which we hold blue prints to.

 

[Hazashin]

how came you to that conclusion? once in a loop, the original type doesnt have any effects upon the person.
and actually, werent all the "killings" just his imagination which he thought to be real?
i dont recall Se being a function which would leave space for imagination, not in any case.
people with Se get depressed if they use Ne to construct imaginaion worlds, cause they cant have it, yet they long to have it all in touchable way. [...]

Oh, whoops. He was in an Fe/Ne loop, not Fe/Se loop. My apologies.

 

[Kasper]

could you elaborate what you mean by that?

I'm honing in on this bit: "they hold their values both inside and out".

I don't see E9 as being especially value driven, their MBTI type would have more influence on that, and as an ENTP; the type that doesn't hold and stick to strong morals for the most part, the influence is strong. Not that we're amoral it's just that we see everything in grey-scale when it comes to morals, there is always more information that can be brought to the table which can change the outcome so nothing is held to strongly.

So from an ENTP E9 perspective I do not hold my values both inside and out. I do have ease of access to Fe so outside values do play a part but personal internal values are more of a Fi thing.

I also wouldn't say that an E9 is ready to take a stand, everyone has their boundaries that once crossed means fight but the fight/flight response has E9s firmly in the 'withdraw' first category, figuratively speaking. We withdraw from problems, withdraw away from reality, we may not withdraw from a physical confrontation but we would first attempt to appease the situation verbally, we're peacekeepers when we can be.

If the definition of wimpy is to be "weak, cowardly, or ineffectual person" then nothing about an E9 has them placed either way, you could consider avoiding issues weak, you could consider avoiding conflict cowardly and you could consider not facing reality ineffectual, but they're not necessarily as the view is subjective.

The thing to keep in mind is E9 is in the anger triad, we are most out of touch with anger but it tends to go one of two ways when activated, rage or suppression. An E9 on rage would not be pleasant, or deemed wimpy I expect.

 

[Vilku]

I'm honing in on this bit: "they hold their values both inside and out".

I don't see E9 as being especially value driven, their MBTI type would have more influence on that, and as an ENTP; the type that doesn't hold and stick to strong morals for the most part, the influence is strong. Not that we're amoral it's just that we see everything in grey-scale when it comes to morals, there is always more information that can be brought to the table which can change the outcome so nothing is held to strongly.

So from an ENTP E9 perspective I do not hold my values both inside and out. I do have ease of access to Fe so outside values do play a part but personal internal values are more of a Fi thing.

I also wouldn't say that an E9 is ready to take a stand, everyone has their boundaries that once crossed means fight but the fight/flight response has E9s firmly in the 'withdraw' first category, figuratively speaking. We withdraw from problems, withdraw away from reality, we may not withdraw from a physical confrontation but we would first attempt to appease the situation verbally, we're peacekeepers when we can be.

If the definition of wimpy is to be "weak, cowardly, or ineffectual person" then nothing about an E9 has them placed either way, you could consider avoiding issues weak, you could consider avoiding conflict cowardly and you could consider not facing reality ineffectual, but they're not necessarily as the view is subjective.

The thing to keep in mind is E9 is in the anger triad, we are most out of touch with anger but it tends to go one of two ways when activated, rage or suppression. An E9 on rage would not be pleasant, or deemed wimpy I expect.

enneagram is all about values.
in fact, thats exactly what it represents, your values.

9 values peace and they are ready to defend what they value.

a mindless savage person attacks someone defenseless, and in this specific case you know its wrong, if there are no laws against killing the attacker, would you?
considering it would be effortless for you to do so, you are carrying a machete or something coincidentally in this lawless world.

no?
you could be the next target, too bad you didnt proceed into an action.
(Ti moral, while Fi might had done it even if it wasnt possible for them to be the next victim or if they didnt consider that possibility.)

just cause ti users have less values or they might be blurred doesnt mean you necessarily hold them less firmly.

fi generates values, but it _doesnt_ carry them out on anyone but _themselves_ by itself.

and with aid of Fe, i dont see why Ti couldnt generate them, besides Fe is more action oriented with their values than Fi. thus more likely for Fe's to act upon them, while Fi is rather working in the background.

just cause your values are selfish doesnt mean you dont have them.
you just arent well developed enough to include others in, which isnt suprising since maturity rarely is a thing NT's care about.

"there is always more information that can be brought to the table which can change the outcome so nothing is held to strongly."
that is true, and i value it to the extend nothing in morals is predetermined, only my own setting are and even they evolve constantly as i gain more self understanding.

"I do have ease of access to Fe so outside values do play a part but personal internal values are more of a Fi thing."
Ti can play the same role as Fi, you just valuate the internal side without feelings, by using thinking which can be developed and occasionally you will have to think about what you really want from life, in which case primitive Fi may come into play, unless your goal is 100% achievable without its aid as you anyways wont need it for anything else than to define what youre able to enjoy and that data is then for the rest of your life accessible without use of Fi, unless you want to edit your preferences. (aka not going in the mainstream. which is usual for healthy Ji before Je users.)

and you anyways use Fi, even ixtp's do.
its what dictates your set of preferences for leisure activities mostly, on Ti user types. you know those precious times when your more than just interested at something fascinating, when it goes beyond intellectual benefit.

for example, Se/Fe loops often enjoy watching others in pain, but i dont see this enjoyment coming empathy. but rather a primitive way of expressing Fi.

and this stereotype of Fi being moral function is just so wrong, as it has much more than mere values in it.


the role of Ji, both of them is pretty much to find a personal agenda for whatever actions whether inside or outside head you are to take.
the F element just means review in moral standards and T makes the standards based on effectiveness, and e/i is for the PoV and direction of use.

and by messing with the P/J E/I axis of mbti types, you can change the order of said processes and by messing with N/S + T/F you can mash whatever you require in the sense of criteria of what is significant.

we shouldnt try to simplify these things, they are all related and something which requires another cant be described as a whole alone.

same thing as if you slice car into half, it hardly transports you anywhere.

i guess these simplfying standards are set upon by the sensor domination.. which is rather destructive knowledgewise.


actionwise, ennea 9s do hold their values both ways. for the internal peace your ready for outside actions, to have the internal freedom. you are ready for self defence, while i would take the beating and were laws not stopping me, remove the problem permanently from this realm by later planned actions.

or in that case, i would prefer to remove the problem permanently before it becomes a problem in case there is no other ways, which often is the case for alcoholics wiith forever 7 year old violentic personality.

(have met adult people who seriously listened to children directed swearing music. one which attacked me later with only reason being it's stupidity.)

 

[Hyacinth]

Two's can be, just a little bit.

 

[Kasper]

enneagram is all about values.
in fact, thats exactly what it represents, your values.

9 values peace and they are ready to defend what they value.

We were looking at different things there then. So sure, peace is vital to 9s but you do see the issue with "defending" to keep the peace? Contradiction.

just cause ti users have less values or they might be blurred doesnt mean you necessarily hold them less firmly.

As a Ne-Ti type I'm saying the opposite, we may have the ability to have as many values as anyone else but we hold them less firmly as something can always change the way we frame things. It's the Ne-Ti combination, not Ti on it's own.

just cause your values are selfish doesnt mean you dont have them.
you just arent well developed enough to include others in, which isnt suprising since maturity rarely is a thing NT's care about.

You've made a leap there, I didn't claim that my values were selfish, I said they aren't hard and fast.

The suggestion that maturity is rarely a thing NTs care about is absurd.

actionwise, ennea 9s do hold their values both ways. for the internal peace your ready for outside actions, to have the internal freedom. you are ready for self defence, while i would take the beating and were laws not stopping me, remove the problem permanently from this realm by later planned actions.

or in that case, i would prefer to remove the problem permanently before it becomes a problem in case there is no other ways, which often is the case for alcoholics wiith forever 7 year old violentic personality.

Are you talking strictly about a situation where your life is in danger? In that situation the morality of the question is of little interest to me, most people will front up if it's kill or be killed, those who don't generally do so in the name of pacifism. For me personally I'm a non-aggression pacifist, meaning if you threaten the life of me or someone who cannot defend themselves I will take measures to stop you, otherwise I won't start jack.

But if we're not talking about a threat like that: As a 9 gets more and more stressed and moves down the levels they become more and more insular, one of the first (unhealthy) coping methods is to shut down awareness of what is happening to disrupt the peace, this is opposite of what you are implying. 9s don't tend to fight for their internal peace, they need it but unless you're looking at those who live at health levels 1 or 2, when it's disrupted they shut down, they do not get active.

 

[Society]

hmm, as a 4 i think our own whimpy moments are more genuinely whimpy because we may be more likely to actually doubt what we think rather then just being afraid to say it - for the rare extroverted 4s, we might express that self-doubt out loud.

on the other hands 6s and 9s have a lot more whimpy moments....

 

[Vilku]

We were looking at different things there then. So sure, peace is vital to 9s but you do see the issue with "defending" to keep the peace? Contradiction.

the difference is, _whose_ peace. 9 is a mixture of both 8 and 1, meaning self standing and kind of perectionist flare, they dont poses flare of 2's motives in them. they wont naturally care for others unless theyve _learned_ artificially.

As a Ne-Ti type I'm saying the opposite, we may have the ability to have as many values as anyone else but we hold them less firmly as something can always change the way we frame things. It's the Ne-Ti combination, not Ti on it's own.



You've made a leap there, I didn't claim that my values were selfish, I said they aren't hard and fast.

The suggestion that maturity is rarely a thing NTs care about is absurd.

not really, statistically speaking F's tend to care a multitude more. and statistics are the only way to generalize typology, so to speak. or any other generalization in that regard.

(and why NT instead just T, cause they have both leading functions as competitive ones and 3rd + 4th as noncompetitive functions. competitive people just tend to care less, while for those not double competitive might take harder to realize what it is they must achieve to mature, especially double noncompetitive types like isfp.)

Are you talking strictly about a situation where your life is in danger? In that situation the morality of the question is of little interest to me, most people will front up if it's kill or be killed, those who don't generally do so in the name of pacifism. For me personally I'm a non-aggression pacifist, meaning if you threaten the life of me or someone who cannot defend themselves I will take measures to stop you, otherwise I won't start jack.

But if we're not talking about a threat like that: As a 9 gets more and more stressed and moves down the levels they become more and more insular, one of the first (unhealthy) coping methods is to shut down awareness of what is happening to disrupt the peace, this is opposite of what you are implying. 9s don't tend to fight for their internal peace, they need it but unless you're looking at those who live at health levels 1 or 2, when it's disrupted they shut down, they do not get active.

im not really pacifist, but i guess when it comes to actions, i am more pacifist than even those who claim to be such.

as laws prohobit self defence, i would only gain more problems by defending myself as the damage is done from the initial attack, is irreversible and by defending myself i would risk not only further chance for permanent health injuries but also the punishments of laws, which for some reason punish the attacked more than attackers. (for the reason, majority in this country belong to the attacker group and thus democrat.. UGH, hate democracy.)

but i would carry a machete constantly around if i were allowed self defence, my precious fingers i wouldnt endanger however as it could destroy my dream of musical career. + aggreviate the attacker into doing further damage to me, possibly even destroying some body part i need for my dream career.

the point is, odds for anything positive happening from self defence is inexistent, and likely to cause only more problems for me. yeah, justful world.

and im thinking of anyways starting to carry a machete everywhere around, screw laws, its too unsafe out there.

 

[OrangeAppled]

I'm going with 9s. The ones in my life drive me nuts also. They react to conflict by sticking their head in the sand, stubbornly refusing to be engaged, and just flat out ignoring problems so they get worse & worse. It comes off as spineless, apathetic, & lazy to me.

There's a description out there of the 4 & 9 relationship dynamic which hits the nail on the head for me - it basically says 9s find 4s difficult, demanding, too critical, & too temperamental. 4s find 9s too passive, too stuck in their comfortable ruts, and too uncommunicative.

I'm emotionally sensitive & have a timid demeanor at times, which could certainly be seen as "wimpy", but I also have something of a temper & high principles I don't back down from. The integration at 1 (critical & morally driven) & general passionate nature of a 4 prevents most from being doormat-ish, IMO. I think it's the depressive slant that probably appears "wimpy".

 

[Elfboy]

I'm going with 9s. The ones in my life drive me nuts also. They react to conflict by sticking their head in the sand, stubbornly refusing to be engaged, and just flat out ignoring problems so they get worse & worse. It comes off as spineless, apathetic, & lazy to me.
There's a description out there of the 4 & 9 relationship dynamic which hits the nail on the head for me - it basically says 9s find 4s difficult, demanding, too critical, & too temperamental. 4s find 9s too passive, too stuck in their comfortable ruts, and too uncommunicative.
I'm emotionally sensitive & have a timid demeanor at times, which could certainly be seen as "wimpy", but I also have something of a temper & high principles I don't back down from. The integration at 1 (critical & morally driven) & general passionate nature of a 4 prevents most from being doormat-ish, IMO. I think it's the depressive slant that probably appears "wimpy".

with all types, levels of health play into this assessment, but probably more for 4 than other types
unhealthy 4s: clingy, emotionally neurotic messes that are nothing short of pathetic
healthy 4s: charismatic, flamboyant, expressive, principled

 

[Elfboy]

I'm going with 9s. The ones in my life drive me nuts also. They react to conflict by sticking their head in the sand, stubbornly refusing to be engaged, and just flat out ignoring problems so they get worse & worse. It comes off as spineless, apathetic, & lazy to me.
There's a description out there of the 4 & 9 relationship dynamic which hits the nail on the head for me - it basically says 9s find 4s difficult, demanding, too critical, & too temperamental. 4s find 9s too passive, too stuck in their comfortable ruts, and too uncommunicative.
I'm emotionally sensitive & have a timid demeanor at times, which could certainly be seen as "wimpy", but I also have something of a temper & high principles I don't back down from. The integration at 1 (critical & morally driven) & general passionate nature of a 4 prevents most from being doormat-ish, IMO. I think it's the depressive slant that probably appears "wimpy".

with all types, levels of health play into this assessment, but probably more for 4 than other types
unhealthy 4s: clingy, emotionally neurotic messes that are nothing short of pathetic: wimpy
healthy 4s: charismatic, flamboyant, expressive, principled: not wimpy

 

[Hazashin]

with all types, levels of health play into this assessment, but probably more for 4 than other types

True dat. Even Type 9s aren't wimpy when they are healthy.

 

[Elfboy]

True dat. Even Type 9s aren't wimpy when they are healthy.

you're right.