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Validity of enneagram and MBTI correlations

musttry

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I have been pondering correlations between the enneagram and MBTI that are very popular in personality typing circles. I wonder how valid these correlations are.

My main argument is that I have a hard time seeing how a system like the MBTI, which is about "cognitive functions" (brain) and the enneagram, a much more "existential" viewpoint (experience), can be associated with any kind of validity. On a theoretical level, the postulates of either have very little to do with one another. As such, the only valid association made between the two is simple observation of the frequency of certain types of one system belonging to types in the other.

The prime example I have for this is the fact that INTPs and ennegram 5s are often seen as being near equivalents. However, I fail to see how INTPs who are suppose to mainly think rationally, and e5's, who have learned to retreat, observe and gather information in order to deal with experience are part and parcel. I would argue that any intuitive, sensor, thinker or feeler that has learned to deal with life in this fashion could be a 5.

Or, how about an ISTP (artisan), who might be brutally honest about their feelings and has a need to express their individuality through their creativity, like a 4, because, say, they were a middle child and had a hard time being seen.

I believe that trying to associate the two systems is a disservice to those who wish to use them for self-understanding because the archetypes of the one are often erroneously transferred to the other.

PS. I can already poke holes in my argument. However, I'd like to hear what others would have to say about this. I am aware of my own personal bias since I type myself as an INFJ (NiTiFeSe) 5w4 sx/so. Any insights into this would be highly appreciated.
 

highlander

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I think they are completely different systems but I do think it's pretty likely that there is a correlation between frequency of the two types being associated with each other. It doesn't make sense to say that two are equivalent at all. However, it would not surprise me that there are a lot of ENFP 7s, or INFP 4s, for example.

I question some of the statistics out there though - don't know the sample size.
 
G

garbage

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They can be said to correlate if there's a relation between MBTI type (or Jungian cognitive function, or dichotomy) and Enneagram type. Correlation does not indicate absolute similarity. Although, it can provide a hint that two descriptions are at least somewhat related or that they are talking about similar things.

The reason we seek unity through these correlations is that it would provide an elegant understanding of personality. At the very least, in some cases, familiarity with one system may more readily translate into familiarity with another.

Naranjo's book (which is my new favorite, as of, like, yesterday) employs this a lot; he attempts to 'liken' his Enneagram types to types in other systems, including the DSM III. Type 5 is said to be akin to schizoid personality disorder, the INTP personality type, and both Fi and Ti. Type 6, on the other hand, is said to be akin to Ti, but the counterphobic 6 is related to ENTJ. This, oh no!, presents an apparent inconsistency because we normally associate ENTJ with Te rather than Ti--but the apparent contradiction is assuaged if we don't try treat these correlations as overly tight.

So, to the extent that we can say that Type 5 is 'kind of like' INTP--great; an understanding of INTP might give us an understanding of 5. The danger is in taking this too far and assuming that the two are equivalent.

It'd be great to get a statistical understanding of these correlations rather than an explanatory or theoretical one, though.
 
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brainheart

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I believe that trying to associate the two systems is a disservice to those who wish to use them for self-understanding because the archetypes of the one are often erroneously transferred to the other.

Totally agree. I've pretty much reached the conclusion you can't for sure figure out other people's enneagram types for this very reason. It's too easy to spot their MBTI and assign those qualities to an etype but that's not how the enneagram works. I believe the enneagram is entirely about internal drives that are really hard for others to notice. Similarly, you can share an etype with someone but not an MBTI type and they will seem different so it's easy to think, "Oh, they can't be the same etype as me..."

Personal example: When I first started getting into the enneagram I figured my husband, an ESFP, was a seven because that's the sort of energy he exudes. He read the enneagram blurbs I handed to him and he said the 1 was "totally him." Externally he seems nothing like the descriptions of the 1. Similarly, he typed me as a nine while I am a four. I just give off some sort of nine-like energy to him, being an IXFP who tests highest on perceiving vs judging, and that's what he picks up on.

I think so often when people type people instantly on behavioral characteristics, mannerisms, etc, what they're really seeing is their MBTI type, not the etype.
 
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musttry

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I do agree that there seems to be some type of correlation (not using the statistical term here by the way, you can't have statistical correlations between non-metric values) between certain types of both systems, as suggested by some of the numbers out there. However, I'm on the same page as you, Brainheart, similar behaviours may stem from different etype motivations and different behaviours may be provoked by the same motivations. E-type is therefore a much better tool for self-understanding than typing others.

However, Gurdjeff seemed to be able to spot these internal motivations, meaning that there might be something that we can notice in others in order to try to pin down their etype; I'm just not sure what it could be since we can't base the typing on observable behaviours.

Have you figured out what things should be watched for when trying to find someone's etype?

As a side note, I went through a particularly difficult time a few years ago and my reaction was to get involved in a million things (like a 7) all the while becoming extremely anal retentive about my performance in personal organisation and work. Anyone at that time could have pinned me down as a 7, a 1 or a 3. I know now that I was very unhealthy and reacting to an incredible amount of fear about not being "good enough" to compete in the world right after completing my degree.
 

Southern Kross

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Naranjo's book (which is my new favorite, as of, like, yesterday) employs this a lot; he attempts to 'liken' his Enneagram types to types in other systems, including the DSM III. Type 5 is said to be akin to schizoid personality disorder, the INTP personality type, and both Fi and Ti. Type 6, on the other hand, is said to be akin to Ti, but the counterphobic 6 is related to ENTJ. This, oh no!, presents an apparent inconsistency because we normally associate ENTJ with Te rather than Ti--but the apparent contradiction is assuaged if we don't try treat these correlations as overly tight.
To me, enneagram has less to do with cognitive functions and more to do with MBTI letters. Examples:

ISXP correlates with 9
EXTP correlates with 7
INFX correlates with 4
INTX correlates with 5

I suppose this works for the same reason the 4 temperaments show commonalities in spite of the fact that some have completely opposing cognitive functions.

Edit: I would also add that the standard 2 or 3 most common e-types for any MBTI seem to relate to multiple commonality crossovers. Examples:

INFX = 4, and IXFJ = 1 so INFJs tend to be 1s and 4s
INFX= 4, and IXFP = 9, and INXP = 5 so INFPs tend to be 4s, 9s and 5s.
 

Hazashin

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INXP = 5 so INFPs tend to be 4s, 9s and 5s.

Eh, I'm not sure about that one. I think E-5 generally correlates with N and T, and usually introverted. Of course, I'm not saying it's not possible, I just think it's probably more likely that E-5's are more likely INTx's than INxP's. I know four INTJ 5s, but only two INTP 5s and no INFP 5s (in fact, I'm not sure if I've seen one).

Here's what I view as the MBTI correlations with E-type:

1: xxxJs and INFPs
2: xSFJs and ENFx's
3: ExxJs and ESTPs
4: INFx's
5: INTx's
6: xSxJs and xNFPs
7: ExxPs and xSxPs
8: xNTJs, ESTJs, and xSTPs
9: IxFx's and ISxPs
 

Southern Kross

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Eh, I'm not sure about that one. I think E-5 generally correlates with N and T, and usually introverted. Of course, I'm not saying it's not possible, I just think it's probably more likely that E-5's are more likely INTx's than INxP's. I know four INTJ 5s, but only two INTP 5s and no INFP 5s (in fact, I'm not sure if I've seen one).
[MENTION=8074]Seymour[/MENTION] is a INFP 5. :) And supposedly Kurt Cobain and Vincent Van Gogh were also. I also know just how strongly I type 5; only slightly less than 4 (and on some tests it's more).

Here's what I view as the MBTI correlations with E-type:

1: xxxJs and INxPs
2: xSFJs and ENFx's
3: ExxJs and ESTPs
4: INFx's
5: INTx's
6: xSxJs and xNFPs
7: ExxPs and xSxPs
8: xNTJs, ESTJs, and xSTPs
9: IxFx's
I agree with most. I don't think INXPs relate to 1 at all (except through integration from 4), and 6s I would consider a universal enneatype. I also know many ISTPs are 9s, albeit 9w8s - and I think people stereotype 9s too often as being all 9w1s
 

Hazashin

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[MENTION=8074]Seymour[/MENTION] is a INFP 5. :) And supposedly Kurt Cobain and Vincent Van Gogh were also. I also know just how strongly I type 5; only slightly less than 4 (and on some tests it's more).

Well, I still think 5 applies more to INTx's than INxPs.

I agree with most. I don't think INXPs relate to 1 at all (except through integration from 4), and 6s I would consider a universal enneatype. I also know many ISTPs are 9s, albeit 9w8s - and I think people stereotype 9s too often as being all 9w1s

That's true. I suppose I thought INxPs for 1 because of the dominant Fi + iNtuition and I had just recalled Magic Poriferan being an INTP 1 on the spot.

I'll have to change those. :yes:
 

Seymour

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Well, I still think 5 applies more to INTx's than INxPs.

I agree type 5 is a more natural fit for Thinking over Feeling on the whole... and hence more likely for INTx's as a group than INxPs.

As far as being an e5 INFP personally, I went so far as to attend an enneagram workshop and sit at different "type tables" (specifically 5, 4 and 9) to try to make sure I wasn't fooling myself. I definitely found the type 5s to be the best fit, even if I don't see that an entirely positive thing. Still, identifying as an e5 did make some of the aspects of how I'm "weird" for an INFP make more sense to me and was good food for thought.

As far as self-reporting on typology forums, seems like INFPs self report as 4, 9, 5 and 1 (in decreasing order of frequency). According to other sources, 6 and/or 2 should be more common for INFPs than 5. So maybe a lot of us are deluding ourselves (and after seeing the reported scores on the "social desirability scale", seems like there's plenty of universal self-delusion to go around).
 

Hazashin

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As far as self-reporting on typology forums, seems like INFPs self report as 4, 9, 5 and 1 (in decreasing order of frequency). According to other sources, 6 and/or 2 should be more common for INFPs than 5. So maybe a lot of us are deluding ourselves (and after seeing the reported scores on the "social desirability scale", seems like there's plenty of universal self-delusion to go around).

Oh yeah, definitely. I think a good bit of the ones that are self-proclaimed 4s are actually 6s (I originally thought I was a 4 myself). I think a lot has to do with the fact that E-6's usually have a hard time seeing themselves as a 6 until it is pointed out to them.
 

Savage Idealist

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The reason for correlations is that certain aspects of each system are somewaht similar to the other, and thus people who identify with that one whole aspect, will identify with each aspect of the respective system. Ne doms and 7's can be very curious and energetic, thus someone whom is both curious and energetic will probably identify as an ENxP 7.

However it is imperative to remeber that each system ultimately measures and describes some different aspect of the human psyche, and that beyond mere surface behaviors (that is the core structure of each system) anyone of any type in JCF can be any enneagram type and vice versa.
 

musttry

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However it is imperative to remeber that each system ultimately measures and describes some different aspect of the human psyche, and that beyond mere surface behaviors (that is the core structure of each system) anyone of any type in JCF can be any enneagram type and vice versa.

Right! So wouldn't it be more interesting and more informative to say something like "Hey, I have a preference for INFP functions and the way this interacts with the fact that I have the motivations of a 7w6 is..."?

I just find that we lose the whole depth of being able to refer to two systems by trying to equate 1s and ISTJs or 8s with ESTJs etc.
 

1487610420

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Right! So wouldn't it be more interesting and more informative to say something like "Hey, I have a preference for INFP functions and the way this interacts with the fact that I have the motivations of a 7w6 is..."?

I just find that we lose the whole depth of being able to refer to two systems by trying to equate 1s and ISTJs or 8s with ESTJs etc.

Sure. But who is this we you're referring to? Any specific scenario/group/thread or possibility of projection here? While correlation can only be inferred from an empirical perspective, I find such data to be of limited use at best and at worse no more than just an exercise in typology snob/cultism/mental jerking off. I find the most useful way to use the two, or any other models, to be using them in a complementing fashion rather then seeking any correlation. I speculate the later as implied in the OP, to be a possible pitfall while trying to infer what one's type according to a given model is based of from an already identified type from another model, which has the potential to be a dead end and a sub-optimal way of doing so, as opposed to, seeking a better understanding of the model being pursued, in a self contained way, as to minimize interference and maximize accuracy.
 

Savage Idealist

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Right! So wouldn't it be more interesting and more informative to say something like "Hey, I have a preference for INFP functions and the way this interacts with the fact that I have the motivations of a 7w6 is..."?

Yes, it would be more interesting and informative to same something of that degree. Functions are but mindsets that show how we arrive at our beliefs, mannerisms and actions, and how we process information and make decisions. Enneagram types focus on out motivational fixation of who we are based off an underlying fear, and thus escess of some sort.

I just find that we lose the whole depth of being able to refer to two systems by trying to equate 1s and ISTJs or 8s with ESTJs etc.

Agreed 100% :yes:
 
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