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9's and 2's

tinker683

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Hello all,

After some thought and introspection I've come to the conclusion I may very well be a Type 9 and not a Type 2. While I do have a strong need to be needed, I've concluded that my reasons for my greatest fear (not being loved or wanted) wasn't motivated by a need to be needed but rather from a desire to maintain harmony.

Anywho, I thought a discussion might be interesting so I ask you, TypoC: What are your opinions on the differences between 9's and 2's and how often, if at all, do you think they're mistyped?
 

VagrantFarce

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It helps to recognise that they sit in different triads.

  • 9s are part of the body or gut triad, and so their fixation emerges from a need to maintain some sort of overinflated physical presence - in this case, it's a need to maintain a sense of harmony by being overly serene and malleable.
  • 2s are part of the heart or emotion triad, and so their fixation emerges from a need to embody an overinflated self-image - in this case, it's a need to champion the needs of others in favour of their own.

I've also found that 2s tend to be belligerent and intense when pathological, whereas 9s tend to be passive-aggressive and numbed out. Both tend to be dependant on others, though - that's probably where mistyping comes from.
 

Giggly

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Glycerine

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I get the impression that 9s will help others because they need people around them to be happy in order to get inner peace while 2s "need to be needed".
 

tinker683

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I get the impression that 9s will help others because they need people around them to be happy in order to get inner peace while 2s "need to be needed".

That's the thing with me: I like other people around me to be happy and in fact I often WANT to be happy because doing so gives me a sense of peace. What I am having difficulty with is determining whether I'm doing it because I want that sense of inner peace or because I want the people around me to want to have me around as I fear being abandoned or undesired.

So confusing!
 

SRT

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I'm seeing it right now as a dichotomy of controlling oneself vs. controlling others out of a fear of doing the opposite. I.e. a 9's focus will be on their own reactions when dealing with others out of a fear of being overbearing (or thought that way by others), while a 2's focus will be on others for a fear of being self-centered (or thought that way by others). So a 9 will come off as more passive, while a 2 more directive. I just had this thought, so maybe another way of thinking it: 9 will help others so as not to be responsible for their own actions and consequences, while 2 helps others because they feel they know the better solution (?).

I like using the "sin" approach; so Sloth (9) vs Pride (2)



P.S. I'm talking out of my ass here.


P.P.S. I'm totally going to keep track of this thread 'cause Enneagram is confusing as hell to me...
 

Giggly

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That's the thing with me: I like other people around me to be happy and in fact I often WANT to be happy because doing so gives me a sense of peace. What I am having difficulty with is determining whether I'm doing it because I want that sense of inner peace or because I want the people around me to want to have me around as I fear being abandoned or undesired.

So confusing!

I don't see why you can't feel both of those things. It certainly happens in real people. The trouble is type descriptions can't overlap like that, or else they'd cease to be unique. And I think that was the whole point (the uniqueness of each type) when it's creators came up with typology. You can't describe 5 different types as unique types that almost sound just alike. There would be no theory to buy. I think in real people these typological ideas are on a sliding scale and quite overlapping, but the descriptions are separating. So.. this doesn't always help you pin point your type. I think doing so would require some time and self-awareness and honesty, where you observe your own patterns and natural responses. It might take time. And you'd better hope and pray that you're not a dynamic person who might change or grow.

Anyways, if I'm going to throw a type out, I'll say you're a 9.

PS - I'm struggling with deciding between these two types for myself as well.
 

tinker683

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I don't see why you can't feel both of those things. It certainly happens in real people. The trouble is type descriptions can't overlap like that, or else they'd cease to be unique. And I think that was the whole point (the uniqueness of each type) when it's creators came up with typology. You can't describe 5 different types as unique types that almost sound just alike. There would be no theory to buy. I think in real people these typological ideas are on a sliding scale and quite overlapping, but the descriptions are separating. So.. this doesn't always help you pin point your type. I think doing so would require some time and self-awareness and honesty, where you observe your own patterns and natural responses. It might take time. And you'd better hope and pray that you're not a dynamic person who might change or grow.

I can see what it is your saying and I'm inclined to agree. I suppose I'm just looking to fit in with a classification so that I can help identify my weaknesses and such.

As to the bolded though, I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. I've never known you to be snarky but just in case you weren't: I would actually like to change or grow, thanks :p

Anyways, if I'm going to throw a type out, I'll say you're a 9.

PS - I'm struggling with deciding between these two types for myself as well.

I'm beginning to suspect as much too, it's just so many of the Two descriptions describe me pretty well, but then so do the 9's.

Blarg!

And it was actually your own search that prompted me to do the same :hug:
 

highlander

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I don't see why you can't feel both of those things. It certainly happens in real people. The trouble is type descriptions can't overlap like that, or else they'd cease to be unique. And I think that was the whole point (the uniqueness of each type) when it's creators came up with typology. You can't describe 5 different types as unique types that almost sound just alike. There would be no theory to buy. I think in real people these typological ideas are on a sliding scale and quite overlapping, but the descriptions are separating. So.. this doesn't always help you pin point your type. I think doing so would require some time and self-awareness and honesty, where you observe your own patterns and natural responses. It might take time. And you'd better hope and pray that you're not a dynamic person who might change or grow.

Anyways, if I'm going to throw a type out, I'll say you're a 9.

PS - I'm struggling with deciding between these two types for myself as well.

If you believe in tri-type, you can be both a 2 and a 9. One is the primary type and the other could be 2nd or 3rd. You have one from each triad and the three are in order.

Example - I thought I was an 8 but there were parts of 3 and 6 that fit as well. Turns out I'm actually 638. It means in terms of reaction - first mind (6), then heart (3), then body/action (8).
 

Noon

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I had trouble deciding between these two as well (occasionally I still do) because there is a lot of overlapping with me. Also because I'm not the ExFJ-esque 2 that many profiles like to emphasize on.

I agree with Vagrant's point about separating the triads more. I relate to the Feeling center more than the others.
VagrantFarce said:
At some point in their development, Twos, Threes, and Fours feel that they have lost contact with their value and with their identify. They adopt a false belief that they are worthless, leading to an underlying feeling of shame. To compensate, the personality tries to create and maintain a personal identity that will overcome these feelings.

Although anger and shame are a bit neck and neck, I realized that my anger was rooted in shame (angry about having to feel shame).

There is a general pattern I notice I tend to repeat: adjusting to outer expectations to feel that I am doing good, until I reach a point of angry stress (8) and become so preoccupied with protecting myself from others and their attempts to "change", "drain", or "take advantage" of me that it looks very uncharacteristically hostile and insensitive on the outside.

Conversely, at my best I feel that I can be freely self-expressive, self-absorbed, and self-accepting without risking the state of being good or worthy of love (4). I disregard others once more, but in a much less defensive way.

I've read that 9s will tend to suppress things for the sake of peace and internal balance, and that 2s will tend to suppress and deny things for the sake of maintaining their chosen ideal self. I tend to do both, but I have the strongest reaction to the latter. It took me a while to sit and go through all of my unpleasantness, and still believe that I am worthy of positive things in spite of it. It can still be troublesome to acknowledge certain needs of mine, but now, simply because they are draining...

Triunity said:
Twos give in abundance the type of validation they need

My primary focus is not on maintaining harmony in itself, but rather on making others feel valued, understood, accepted, and loved; on helping those who are struggling with their sense of identity or worth. My ideal self-image is not of a person that is serene and easy-going, but rather of one that can aid or positively affect others who are in need of being positively affected.

It's important to note too, that I am still ultimately self-focused in a way. Others set the stage for me to prove to myself and to...something higher (it feels like this) that I am capable of good and of positive contributions and thus worthy of positive things like love after all. The overtone is almost always one of (a) making up for some moment in time in which I perceived myself not to be worthy of these things, or (b) countering the existence of such feelings both in myself as well as in others.

VagrantFarce said:
Despite feeling rejected, they feel they only have one gift to offer to prevent future rejection. Their sense of self is based on countering this rejection by offering their talent.

Like so.
 

Giggly

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Let's just be 11's.
 

Magic Poriferan

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I posted this in another thread two days ago. What timing.

Misidentifying Twos and Nines

There are a number of similarities between these types. Both are interpersonal, both tend to put others' needs before their own, both believe in service, both like to keep things positive, and so forth. Nonetheless, the differences between them are significant.

It is usually average Nines who mistakenly think that they are Twos; it is rare for average Twos to make the reverse misidentification. Some average Nines (particularly women) would like to be Twos because they believe that Two is the loving type, and since these Nines also see themselves as loving, they feel that they must therefore be Twos. But of course, the capacity to love is not restricted to Twos, and other types (including Nines) are equally capable of loving others. As with other general traits that are common to all the types (such as aggression and anxiety), love is expressed differently from type to type and must be distinguished.

In fact, the way Twos and Nines love others is quite different. Nines are unselfconscious, seldom focusing on themselves. They are self-effacing and accommodating, quite content to support others emotionally without looking for a great deal of attention or appreciation in return. Of course, while Nines want to feel that their love is returned, they are patient about it and can be satisfied with fewer responses than Twos. (Some of this is because Nines secretly do not want others to bother them or to affect them too strongly–they attempt to stay in connection with others while withdrawing within themselves to feel safe and independent.) Average Nines tend to idealize others and fall in love with a romantic, idealized version of the person rather than the person as he or she actually is. Average Twos, on the other hand, have an acute sense of other people and their hurts, needs, and frailties. Twos may focus on these qualities as a way of getting closer to others and as a way to be needed.

Unlike average Nines, average Twos have a very sharp sense of their own identities. Although highly empathetic, they are not particularly self-effacing or accommodating. Rather than being unselfconscious, they are highly aware of their feelings and virtues and are much less hesitant to talk about them.

At their best, healthy Twos can be as unselfish and humble as healthy Nines, but by the average Levels, there is quite a marked difference: Twos need to be needed, they want to be important in the lives of others, and they want people to come to them for approval, guidance, and advice. Average Twos almost "go after" people, and are always in danger of subtly encouraging people to become dependent on them. They tend to do things for people so that others will reinforce their sense of themselves as all-good and loving. By contrast to average Nines (who become silent, uncommunicative, and show few reactions when they get into conflicts with others), average Twos have no hesitation about telling people how selfish they are or informing them in no uncertain terms how much others are indebted to them. In short, as they become unhealthier, the egos of Twos inflate and become more self-important and aggressive, whereas the egos of Nines become more self-effacing, withdrawn, and diffused.

Healthy Nines offer safe space to others. They are easy-going and accepting, so that others feel safe with them. There is almost no tendency in Nines to manipulate others or to make them feel guilty for not responding as they would like. (Healthy Nines are more patient and humble–traits Twos could learn from them.) By contrast, healthy Twos are willing to get down to the nitty-gritty and help out in difficult situations. They have an energy and staying power that average Nines tend to lack. Moreover, the help that healthy Twos give has a direct, personal focus: it is a response to you and your needs. In general, Twos will walk that extra mile with others, whereas, while Nines sincerely wish others well, they generally offer more comfort and reassurance than practical help. (The particularity of the love of healthy Twos is something that Nines could learn.) The similarities and differences between these two types may be seen by contrasting Eleanor Roosevelt and Lillian Carter (Twos) with Lady Bird Johnson and Betty Ford (Nines).


I don't see why you can't feel both of those things. It certainly happens in real people. The trouble is type descriptions can't overlap like that, or else they'd cease to be unique. And I think that was the whole point (the uniqueness of each type) when it's creators came up with typology. You can't describe 5 different types as unique types that almost sound just alike. There would be no theory to buy. I think in real people these typological ideas are on a sliding scale and quite overlapping, but the descriptions are separating. So.. this doesn't always help you pin point your type. I think doing so would require some time and self-awareness and honesty, where you observe your own patterns and natural responses. It might take time. And you'd better hope and pray that you're not a dynamic person who might change or grow.

Anyways, if I'm going to throw a type out, I'll say you're a 9.

PS - I'm struggling with deciding between these two types for myself as well.

If you have a viable personality type system, then it must be true to say that someone is one of the types, and it must be false to say they are more than one of the types. If you fail to meet this criteria, you've failed to create a viable typology system at all.

Now it seems what you're saying is that you think it can be true for a person to be more than one Enneagram type?
 

Giggly

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If you have a viable personality type system, then it must be true to say that someone is one of the types, and it must be false to say they are more than one of the types. If you fail to meet this criteria, you've failed to create a viable typology system at all.

Now it seems what you're saying is that you think it can be true for a person to be more than one Enneagram type?

I wouldn't say it's not a viable system since plenty of people feel like they fit perfectly into one type. I think I have parts of both 2 and 9, yes (and apparently I'm not alone in my thinking), but I guess if I'm forced to pick one type, I'd pick type 2.
 

VagrantFarce

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I wouldn't say it's not a viable system since plenty of people feel like they fit perfectly into one type. I think I have parts of both 2 and 9, yes (and apparently I'm not alone in my thinking), but I guess if I'm forced to pick one type, I'd pick type 2.

You have to understand that the types are not amalgamated from a list of character traits - they emerge from all-encompassing central fixations, which can be summed up very distinctly from each other. So to say that a person can have "parts" of several types is to miss the point.

It's something that people do on this forum all the time - your type isn't defined by surface traits, they are only identified to help you recognise your central fixation. It's why typing other people (especially celebrities) is such a fruitless enterprise - they have to be the ones to decide, it's not the other way around.
 

Thunderbringer

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You have to understand that the types are not amalgamated from a list of character traits - they emerge from all-encompassing central fixations, which can be summed up very distinctly from each other. So to say that a person can have "parts" of several types is to miss the point.

It's something that people do on this forum all the time - your type isn't defined by surface traits, they are only identified to help you recognise your central fixation - that's what defines your type.

Even so, I get what Giggly is saying. I feel like I relate to the core motivations and weaknesses from various types. I resonate strongly with 2's, 3's, 4's, 6's, and 9's, and I even feel like 7's and 5's sometimes.
 

VagrantFarce

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Even so, I get what Giggly is saying. I feel like I relate to the core motivations and weaknesses from various types. I resonate strongly with 2's, 3's, 4's, 6's, and 9's, and I even feel like 7's and 5's sometimes.

It's more than motivation and weakness - its also a case of where that fixation and energy emerges from (I.e. the triads). I can relate to a number of types in the way you regarded as well, but what I know for sure is that my mind is what defines my fixation, as opposed to my emotions/ self-image, or my physical presence and gut intuition.

I'm not incapable of occupying my physical presence or emotions - but I know for damn sure what my default state is, or at least what I can easily fall back onto if I let myself. That's what a fixation is.
 

tinker683

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[MENTION=1449]Magic Poriferan[/MENTION], thank you for tht post! That definitely helped me to sort things out. After reading that I'd have to settle that I'm an 9 as I'm not nearly assertive enough like a 2.

Thanks a bunch!
 

Thunderbringer

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It's more than motivation and weakness - its also a case of where that fixation and energy emerges from (I.e. the triads). I can relate to a number of types in the way you regarded as well, but what I know for sure is that my mind is what defines my fixation, as opposed to my emotions/ self-image, or my physical presence and gut intuition.

I'm not incapable of occupying my physical presence or emotions - but I know for damn sure what my default state is, or at least what I can easily fall back onto if I let myself. That's what a fixation is.

It still doesn't work for me. I fall to both the emotion and mind triads for different situations.
 

Giggly

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It still doesn't work for me. I fall to both the emotion and mind triads for different situations.

Yeah I feel fixated in both my emotions/ self-image and my physical presence so I don't know what that makes me.

[MENTION=1449]Magic Poriferan[/MENTION], thank you for tht post! That definitely helped me to sort things out. After reading that I'd have to settle that I'm an 9 as I'm not nearly assertive enough like a 2.

Are 9's the most passive type there is? Because I didn't have the impression that 2's are the most assertive type either.


If you believe in tri-type, you can be both a 2 and a 9. One is the primary type and the other could be 2nd or 3rd. You have one from each triad and the three are in order.

Example - I thought I was an 8 but there were parts of 3 and 6 that fit as well. Turns out I'm actually 638. It means in terms of reaction - first mind (6), then heart (3), then body/action (8).

When I looked up the triads, I didn't see any that included both 9 and 2 but i did see it mentioned that there are unhealthy triads. lol :doh: @how complex this type stuff starts to getting in order to explain all of our varied nuances. There's something strange about that to me.
 

highlander

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When I looked up the triads, I didn't see any that included both 9 and 2 but i did see it mentioned that there are unhealthy triads. lol :doh: @how complex this type stuff starts to getting in order to explain all of our varied nuances. There's something strange about that to me.

This might help. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritype

So, you could be a 926 for example or a 259. You have one type from each of the centers (gut, mind, heart) placed in some sort of order. Any combination is legitimate as long as you only have one from each center (e.g you couldn't be a 569 because that would be two from mind and one from gut).

I don't remember any of the tritypes as being considered unhealthy. They were just different.
 
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