Enneatypes with lots of Enneatype-Instinct Variant dissonance

[brainheart]

Oh, another great example of a social four conundrum: allen ginsberg said he never would have published howl if he'd known his father would have been able to read it. He figured, small publishing company, off my father's radar. He said he would have been too embarrassed and ashamed (all the sexual imagery and bad words). Shame is the big deal for the social four, the shame of what it entails to be different, the shame of not living up to your or others' expectations, the shame of letting others' down. So yes, it can be an awkward thing to be.

 

[Catharsis]

I know exactly what elf boy is talking about, actually, and I've read way too many books about the enneagram. (I'd guess around ten.)

While you guys were arguing (unbeknownst to me) I was thinking about me and my social instinct, facing the disturbing possibility that crap, maybe it is my dominant instinct. It's a bitch and I hate it because more than anything I want to be honest and open about expressing myself but I'm overwhelmingly self- conscious (how will others react) and I don't want to insult or offend those I love aka my social group. It's not just wanting to be part of the elite crowd, we fours (like anyone) aren't so one- dimensional, but also consideration of those who matter in our lives. I think that's why social fours can often be anti-social: wanting to be unique and honest while being accepted isn't so easy. Not to mention, sure yeah, I'd love to be a part of the expats in paris or the beats or hang with current musicians, writers, etc, but I'm too freaked to try because my stuff probably isn't as good and I'm not cool enough, so it becomes this unattainable longing as I spend too much time moping on sites like this.

This is basically what it says in the books about social fours, the question is: is this behaviour in conflict with your superego?

 

[brainheart]

You seem to put a lot of faith in this list since I've noticed almost all of your typings comes from here. How do you know it's accurate?

It does seem to be his holy bible, and I can think of a couple of typings on there that seem potentially wrong. I think it's a cool list to get the gist of a type, but using it for statistical purposes seems a little.. Unscientific.

 

[brainheart]

This is basically what it says in the books about social fours, the question is: is this behaviour in conflict with your superego?

In conflict with my super ego? No, I'd say, if anything, its my superego restraining my id. (i think that's right; my freud is a little rusty.)

 

[Elfboy]

This is basically what it says in the books about social fours, the question is: is this behaviour in conflict with your superego?

I don't know what a superego is, but I haven't said anything about it. I'm simply referring to instinct and ego having different desires and that attempting to fulfill both of these desires can be difficult or cause stress to a person. especially when that person is not self aware

 

[Catharsis]

In conflict with my super ego? No, I'd say, if anything, its my superego restraining my id. (i think that's right; my freud is a little rusty.)

The superego in the enneagram is what controls your basic fear and basic desire; I actually know very little of Freud myself. But do you think your social instinct is in direct opposition of your fear of lacking identity and significance? Because I couldn't read anything like that from your post.

 

[Elfboy]

The superego in the enneagram is what controls your basic fear and basic desire; I actually know very little of Freud myself. But do you think your social instinct is in direct opposition of your fear of lacking identity and significance? Because I couldn't read anything like that from your post.

I don't want to speak for brainheart, but at the least this quote supports my theory

Agreed there's just something weird about being a 4w5 sx/so- lots of internal conflict and contradiction, if you catch my drift. Which all totally makes sense for me. Hopefully I'll make some progress due to this insight...

 

[Catharsis]

I don't want to speak for brainheart, but at the least this quote supports my theory

Depends on what kinds of conflict and contradiction she's talking about.

 

[Elfboy]

Depends on what kinds of conflict and contradiction she's talking about.

I'm not talking about any kinda of contradiction or conflict, but the instinct and enneatype are obviously in some kind of conflict, that is the only point I'm trying to me

 

[Catharsis]

I'm not talking about any kinda of contradiction or conflict, but the instinct and enneatype are obviously in some kind of conflict, that is the only point I'm trying to me

It does matter because you were talking about "ironic" conflict.

 

[brainheart]

The superego in the enneagram is what controls your basic fear and basic desire; I actually know very little of Freud myself. But do you think your social instinct is in direct opposition of your fear of lacking identity and significance? Because I couldn't read anything like that from your post.

Hmm, well I think my social instinct hinders me in many ways, it keeps me from pursuing my significance, but it probably compounds my fear of lack of identity. It's like this: "I'm totally different and separate and my interactions with others always affirm this. Still, I don't want to be abandoned or hated or deemed insignificant so I will maintain my separateness while still kinda sorta towing the line and criticizing the social system." Kind of an I can't beat them, but I also can't totally join them half-assedness.

Yes, I get your point, and you will kick the pants off elf boy in an argument. But surely you get what he's getting at, some instincts seem a little contrary to the type (even if it doesn't play out that way.) I know for me I see the fours out there living the artistic life, producing great things and I think, crap, if I wasn't so socially concerned I'd be doing that too. Which is, yes, a quintessentially four way to think, the if only I wasn't flawed...

 

[brainheart]

I don't want to speak for brainheart, but at the least this quote supports my theory

It's cool. What I was talking about was how it's strange being withdrawn and having extroverted instinctual pulls- if that makes sense.

 

[Elfboy]

It does matter because you were talking about "ironic" conflict.

ironic conflict has simple criteria
for example, I could say something like
"it's ironic that Kelly cares more about what other people think than Ray, even though Kelly is a 4w5 and Ray is a 2w3" In this example, let's say Kelly is So/Sx and Ray is Sp/Sx. this is the reason behind the ironic statement being true.

 

[brainheart]

ironic conflict has simple criteria
for example, I could say something like
"it's ironic that Kelly cares more about what other people think than Ray, even though Kelly is a 4w5 and Ray is a 2w3" In this example, let's say Kelly is So/Sx and Ray is Sp/Sx. this is the reason behind the ironic statement being true.

Get what you're getting at but I think it's impossible for a 2w3 not to care what others think, it's pretty much one of their central tenets of being. And sure, I care what others think, but it's in a very different way. I mean, my husband gives me grief all the time about what an antisocial elitist high brow person I am. I don't want to hurt my family and I'd love to belong with those in a group I deem (this is going to sound awful) worthy, but I could give a crap what most other people think. I'll be polite, but if they don't like me, meh.

 

[Elfboy]

Get what you're getting at but I think it's impossible for a 2w3 not to care what others think, it's pretty much one of their central tenets of being. And sure, I care what others think, but it's in a very different way. I mean, my husband gives me grief all the time about what an antisocial elitist high brow person I am. I don't want to hurt my family and I'd love to belong with those in a group I deem (this is going to sound awful) worthy, but I could give a crap what most other people think. I'll be polite, but if they don't like me, meh.

you're right, that was a terrible example
you sound a lot like me

 

[Catharsis]

Are we getting anywhere with this?

 

[kyuuei]

You seem to put a lot of faith in this list since I've noticed almost all of your typings comes from here. How do you know it's accurate?

Well aren't we the little troll? I understand your desire for accuracy, but it seems you're just attacking each person that attempts to contribute to the thread.

 

[Elfboy]

Are we getting anywhere with this?

we've settled the disagreement from the beginning of the thread, now for the real purpose of the thread, which is

Share experiences you've had in which your instinct variant wanted you to do one thing while your Enneatype wanted you to do something else

 

[Catharsis]

Well aren't we the little troll? I understand your desire for accuracy, but it seems you're just attacking each person that attempts to contribute to the thread.

I opposed Elfboy about his theory, and I was asking about the accuracy of that list, which Speed Gavroche seems very trusting of since all of his typings are from there. Naturally I would want to know why he's so sure. Why on earth would I be trolling and how am I "attacking" anyone? Elfboy was the one throwing out insults.

 

[Elfboy]

Well aren't we the little troll? I understand your desire for accuracy, but it seems you're just attacking each person that attempts to contribute to the thread.

he wasn't trolling, I just looked like a victim for a second because I snapped and had a short "bitch step off until you actually get what I'm saying" rant