Seeking help with wing type.

[Rhath89]

I've tested multiple times, for accuracy, and I would have to say that I'm a 9, 4/6 times, with the other 2 being 5's. I personally don't feel like I fit 5 as well as I do 9, but neither the 1 or 8 wing types fit as well as 4 does. I've read that the wing type for a 9 can't be a 4, but it is a 5 wing type. Could I just be Mistyping myself more often than not? 5 doesn't sound like it isn't me, 9 just seems more like me to myself.

 

[Mal12345]

I don't know what type descriptions you're going by or which test(s) you're taking. But I don't think any Enneagram expert would rule out something like a 9w4, the problem is there is no published type-description for that. If you would like to list some of your known personality traits, I know lots of people here who would like to take a crack at typing you.

 

[Rhath89]

I'm quiet, I tend to watch and observe situations as a neutral party. I have a hard time taking someone's side on an issue on the sole basis of having a closer relationship with them than the opposing party. I avoid conflict as much as I can through mediation, though when I am forced to leave my middle ground I tend to let loose with the character flaws I observe in the person pushing my buttons. This has gotten me kicked out of my dad's place on a couple of occasions. I never resort to physical violence out of anger, and losing my cool is a rare occasion. I am generally a very laid back easy going person, though I can tell sometimes my procrastination get on others nerves.
As a sort of counter-point to me being quiet, I'm a musician, I played the clarinet for 4 years and have been playing the guitar for about 7-8. I play in bands and find myself very comfortable when I'm part of a group of 4-5 people at varying levels of ability but with enough talent collectively to be able to mesh together and make decent music. I enjoy being a guitarist but I can't see myself being a frontman. As well as playing music I'm an artist, just sketching throughout my life but now I'm taking that to another level and am getting into tattooing as a profession.

 

[Mal12345]

I'm quiet, I tend to watch and observe situations as a neutral party. I have a hard time taking someone's side on an issue on the sole basis of having a closer relationship with them than the opposing party. I avoid conflict as much as I can through mediation, though when I am forced to leave my middle ground I tend to let loose with the character flaws I observe in the person pushing my buttons. This has gotten me kicked out of my dad's place on a couple of occasions. I never resort to physical violence out of anger, and losing my cool is a rare occasion. I am generally a very laid back easy going person, though I can tell sometimes my procrastination get on others nerves.
As a sort of counter-point to me being quiet, I'm a musician, I played the clarinet for 4 years and have been playing the guitar for about 7-8. I play in bands and find myself very comfortable when I'm part of a group of 4-5 people at varying levels of ability but with enough talent collectively to be able to mesh together and make decent music. I enjoy being a guitarist but I can't see myself being a frontman. As well as playing music I'm an artist, just sketching throughout my life but now I'm taking that to another level and am getting into tattooing as a profession.

Since you mentioned procrastination, the type 5 has a hard time initiating activity. A lot of that sounds like some of the 5 - 9 similarities. Knowing why these traits exist is also important to determining type.

 

[Silveresque]

Going by that description, you do sound most like a nine to me, though there's always that possibility that you've mistyped yourself based on the descriptions. If you are a nine, then you might not have a wing. Not everyone does. If you really want a wing, just go with whichever (8 or 1) fits you better. But I would also suggest looking at not just one but many different descriptions for type 5. One of the biggest mistakes people make in typing themselves is that they go with the description that describes them best. But no description is going to describe you, they're only going to describe some common traits of the type. Think about the basic fears and motivations for the types as well.

I would recommend trying this link here. There's also another link you can try which tries to make a formula for finding your type. It's called "The new and improved Enneagram".

You've also mentioned that you would like to have 4 as your wing. As a 9, this isn't possible. But you could still have 4 in your tritype. I could easily see you being a tritype 945. Go ahead and read up on it if it interests you. I hope this helps!

 

[Mal12345]

Now see my response to MP's new system on 5/2/2011. I'll quote the entire thing here:

"I have some observations to make about the essay above, and I found one error. The observation is that your 1-2-6 triad corresponds to the Compliant personality, your 3-8-7 triad corresponds to the Aggressive personality, and your 5-4-9 triad corresponds to the Withdrawn personality. See pp 434-36 of Personality Types.

The error is your statement that the wing of each type is "the one you are second-most like." But that is not an accurate description of wing theory. The wing is the "second side of your overall personality" (PT, p.43). Riso then goes on to state that the traits of that wing may be a strong or very slight influence on your dominant type. The fact is that we humans possess traits from all 9 points on the Enneagram, but this does not disprove wing-theory.

Your essay then moves on to use your own definition of wings to replace traditional wing-theory (of whatever variant) with your own, and all I can say is that in doing so you no longer have wing-theory but something else. That doesn't mean your concluding theory is wrong, but it is based off of a false definition of wings and therefore isn't really about wings at all. So it's more like a straw-man version of wing-theory.

There is a questionable straw-man argument related to your primary axiom: 'The need for the wing type to be "adjacent" didn't make sense, since as my variable system indicates, the actual order of the numbers that the types were assigned is meaningless. There is no sensible reason that 7s should be next to 6s, for example.'

This one takes more explanation. While there is something rather arbitrary or "meaningless" in one sense, in another sense the 9 types are related in groups of threes by means of triads and centers. It is more practical to have 2-3-4 next to each other as they symbolize primary issues with emotions. The 2 projects emotion, the 3 represses or under-expresses emotion, and the 4 introjects emotion. The 5-6-7 center is related to the intellect, and the 8-9-1 is related to instinct according to the manner with which each type in the triad deals with instincts.

The 9 being on top has always held special significance as a symbol of unity for the entire structure of types.

So while there may be an arbitrary element here, there is indeed a purpose and a plan that goes back to original Enneagram theory given to us by P.D. Ouspensky (The Fourth Way), G.I Gurdjieff (who brought us the enneagram symbol), and Oscar Ichavo (particularly this latter who brought these ideas to the West). These are spiritual teachers who instructed students on the spiritual side of human nature. Any change to that original purpose and structure not only negates wing theory, it negates the Enneagram and leaves you with 9 types of a system by another arbitrary name of your own choosing. To treat the Enneagram itself as an arbitrary construct negates at least a century of teaching on the subject, even if you choose to retain the Enneagram symbol itself.

The origin of the Enneagram's construction, along with the ordering of the types, is found here (http://www.endlesssearch.co.uk/philo_enneagramtalk.htm).

There you will find explanations of the Laws of 3 and 7, as well as the musical tones associated with 7 of them (the Octave). There is also a chemistry analogy presented here for the Law of 3, C+O+N > H, and a "cosmic octave."

So now you see that there is much more to the Enneagram than a typing system. And this is just the tip of the iceberg. It is a small part of a massive system of spiritual growth. But if all you see is a typing system, then there is indeed no basis for supporting the traditional system, and reconstructing it according to any design is highly possible."

 

[Rhath89]

Going by that description, you do sound most like a nine to me, though there's always that possibility that you've mistyped yourself based on the descriptions. If you are a nine, then you might not have a wing. Not everyone does. If you really want a wing, just go with whichever (8 or 1) fits you better. But I would also suggest looking at not just one but many different descriptions for type 5. One of the biggest mistakes people make in typing themselves is that they go with the description that describes them best. But no description is going to describe you, they're only going to describe some common traits of the type. Think about the basic fears and motivations for the types as well.

I would recommend trying this link here. There's also another link you can try which tries to make a formula for finding your type. It's called "The new and improved Enneagram".

You've also mentioned that you would like to have 4 as your wing. As a 9, this isn't possible. But you could still have 4 in your tritype. I could easily see you being a tritype 945. Go ahead and read up on it if it interests you. I hope this helps!

Thank you, this did help, though I am now seeing that I exhibit many of the overlapping traits, selfpreservation is a part of my personality, and self pres 5 sounds too reclusive to me, I find it much easier to withdraw into my mind than needing a special place to be alone. I also have a habit of over indulgence and am not much of a hoarder. I think 9 sounds most like me, without the wings. 5w4 seems to be a possibility to me though. I would like to know more about tritypes if you wouldn't mind indulging me.

 

[Silveresque]

The idea behind tritypes is that everyone has not one type, but three that are most dominant: one in each triad. The three triads include gut (8, 9, and 1), heart (2, 3, and 4), and head (5, 6, and 7). Supposedly, when your most dominant type isn't working for you, you start using the next type in your tritype, and when that fails you move on to the third.

There hasn't been much, if any, actual research to support descriptions for the tritypes, but you can find unofficial ones on various threads. Although personally, I find that most of those descriptions are too vague to go by, so the best way to find your tritype is to research the types you see the most of in yourself. The one thing to be cautious of, however, is that there's a lot of overlap between types, so don't pick a type just because it is similar to your main type. Keep in mind that each type within your tritype must explain some aspect of your personality that 9 alone does not.

 

[Mal12345]

Thank you, this did help, though I am now seeing that I exhibit many of the overlapping traits, selfpreservation is a part of my personality, and self pres 5 sounds too reclusive to me, I find it much easier to withdraw into my mind than needing a special place to be alone. I also have a habit of over indulgence and am not much of a hoarder. I think 9 sounds most like me, without the wings. 5w4 seems to be a possibility to me though. I would like to know more about tritypes if you wouldn't mind indulging me.

Your wing type does not have to include very many traits. It can be anywhere from a weak to a strong wing. Testing may even find that your wing overpowers your main type. More important than testing is to identify with a type-description. Furthermore, every tritype has a wing.

Do you identify with a basic motive or fixation for either the 4, 5, or 9?

 

[Rhath89]

Your wing type does not have to include very many traits. It can be anywhere from a weak to a strong wing. Testing may even find that your wing overpowers your main type. More important than testing is to identify with a type-description. Furthermore, every tritype has a wing.

Do you identify with a basic motive or fixation for either the 4, 5, or 9?

In part I identify with all three. Revlis helped by saying that the tritype together should explain different aspects of my personality, in which case a tritype of the three puts the pieces in place. I seek a sense of individuality and peace, and the knowledge to maintain both.

 

[Mal12345]

In part I identify with all three. Revlis helped by saying that the tritype together should explain different aspects of my personality, in which case a tritype of the three puts the pieces in place. I seek a sense of individuality and peace, and the knowledge to maintain both.

Sure, you can "put together" your personality that way. I have my own 9 traits. I can score 9w1 easily enough on a test. But I know I'm not a type 9 because I don't identify with it on the whole, or as per basic motive, or according to its fixations.

And another clue, for me anyway, is that if I can identify a wing-type at all, then I have nailed the primary type. If I can't identify a wing, as with your type 9, then 9 is not the primary type. In my case, the description of the 9w1 just doesn't fit me.

And in the long run tritypes requires a wing for each of the 3 types. But your 9 seems to be flying without any.

 

[Rhath89]

I've taken the test again http://www.eclecticenergies.com/enneagram/test-2.php and realized that it's been saying I have a 1 variant. So yeah another test done and another 9w1. I was reading into 4w5 and it made me curious to see how much I would test towards 4, it was very low. I once again tested very close for 5, close enough that I think it's the difference of only one or two questions.

 

[Rhath89]

I guess I could be 5w4, certain parts of the descriptions of them seems so against my nature, but then again that was true for 9's optimistic nature, I can't say I'm optimistic all the time, but that doesn't mean I'm always pessimistic either.

 

[Silveresque]

I guess I could be 5w4, certain parts of the descriptions of them seems so against my nature, but then again that was true for 9's optimistic nature, I can't say I'm optimistic all the time, but that doesn't mean I'm always pessimistic either.

I can see how you can be unsure whether you're a 9 or a 5. I have 9 in my tritype as well. I think one of the main things to consider is which is worse for you: loss/separation or being helpless/not good enough. I think a 5 wouldn't be too concerned about loss/separation because they already tend to live in their minds and sometimes even avoid people. I fit some of the descriptions of type 9 and I do desire peace of mind and tend to avoid conflicts, but I just don't see myself as a 9 because the basic fear doesn't fit.

 

[Rhath89]

I can see how you can be unsure whether you're a 9 or a 5. I have 9 in my tritype as well. I think one of the main things to consider is which is worse for you: loss/separation or being helpless/not good enough. I think a 5 wouldn't be too concerned about loss/separation because they already tend to live in their minds and sometimes even avoid people. I fit some of the descriptions of type 9 and I do desire peace of mind and tend to avoid conflicts, but I just don't see myself as a 9 because the basic fear doesn't fit.

I had to think about what that means, and simply enough, I could still feel okay living on if I lost my entire family, but even if I had all my family surrounding me, if I thought I would never be any use to anyone because of some kind of crippling disability, life would officially suck. So it sounds like 5 to me.

 

[Mal12345]

I had to think about what that means, and simply enough, I could still feel okay living on if I lost my entire family, but even if I had all my family surrounding me, if I thought I would never be any use to anyone because of some kind of crippling disability, life would officially suck. So it sounds like 5 to me.

Schizoidal?

 

[Rhath89]

Schizoidal?

He was pointing out what base fears are associated with which, I've been in question of whether I was really 9 early on. I don't get separation anxiety, nor am I negatively affected by the death of a friend or relative, loss has been a part of my life for a long time and is part of everyone's, so it doesn't bother me much. To be helpless, to know that something you once could do, you no longer can, to be bed-ridden and have to be taken care of because you couldn't do it yourself, would be a tragedy no amount of support could alleviate.

 

[Mal12345]

He was pointing out what base fears are associated with which, I've been in question of whether I was really 9 early on. I don't get separation anxiety, nor am I negatively affected by the death of a friend or relative, loss has been a part of my life for a long time and is part of everyone's, so it doesn't bother me much. To be helpless, to know that something you once could do, you no longer can, to be bed-ridden and have to be taken care of because you couldn't do it yourself, would be a tragedy no amount of support could alleviate.

Schizoidal disorder can be associated with either the 5 or the 9. Deterioration of the personality can make definite typing more difficult. I still say go with the call that readily includes the wing-type. You don't have to agree with everything in the type-description, it's just a stereotype of the average levels of functioning. Riso's descriptions go into the entire deterioration of the primary + wing-type. If you can't figure out a wing for 9, then the 9 just has relevance for your self-description of being able to get along without any family, but not being able to get along without something to do in life. The social nature of the type 5 in general and the deteriorated 9 have a lot in common.

 

[Mal12345]

He was pointing out what base fears are associated with which, I've been in question of whether I was really 9 early on. I don't get separation anxiety, nor am I negatively affected by the death of a friend or relative, loss has been a part of my life for a long time and is part of everyone's, so it doesn't bother me much. To be helpless, to know that something you once could do, you no longer can, to be bed-ridden and have to be taken care of because you couldn't do it yourself, would be a tragedy no amount of support could alleviate.

The type 9 is apt to repress social affect in order to maintain feelings of peace and serenity. 9's can therefore delve into the intellectual realm as an escape. 5's do the same thing but for a different reason. 5's are running away from social anxiety into the world of the intellect.

 

[Rhath89]

Schizoidal disorder can be associated with either the 5 or the 9. Deterioration of the personality can make definite typing more difficult. I still say go with the call that readily includes the wing-type. You don't have to agree with everything in the type-description, it's just a stereotype of the average levels of functioning. Riso's descriptions go into the entire deterioration of the primary + wing-type. If you can't figure out a wing for 9, then the 9 just has relevance for your self-description of being able to get along without any family, but not being able to get along without something to do in life. The social nature of the type 5 in general and the deteriorated 9 have a lot in common.

I read up on Schizoidal disorder and I could see being more "secret schizoid." I have a pretty good social life, plenty of friends, I try to always contribute to the group I'm in and we usually end up starting up parties at random, but I lack a love life, and can't say I ever really had one. Socially I'm usually available, but on an emotional level I'm on the moon, not to be reached without tremendous effort.