People who have social variant last

[Such Irony]

hmm maybe sp/so, I've noticed with so/sp's there's a want to network/social climb, and idk don't really see that with you. maybe being an Introvert and an SO changes things a bit?.

I don't have much need to network/social climb. I don't need to be at the top of the ladder but I don't want to stagnate in the same position for 20 years either. I would eventually like get promoted to a higher position but I'm not obsessed like some are about it. I do hate it though when other people get promoted just because they know how to play the political game and they don't have all that much knowledge or experience. SP/SO is possible.

 

[Thalassa]

I actually was thinking about this last night, if I get along with sp/sx or sx/sp people with Fe better than people who have Fe and a dom social variant. Because I really am drawn to Fe but I think it's in FJs who have their so last, and this is both because of the strength of their sexual variant (I'm an sx dom) and the weakness of the so (I'm so last). The two things combined (Fe dominance + so dominance), though, can be unbearable to me. I used to get Fe confused with how the so instinct manifests.

For the reasons the OP named...everything for the group, everybody eat three meals at the table now, blah blah blah.

I think I get along somewhat better with people who are so aux than so dom.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I think as a least so variant that so doms can sometimes freak me out a bit because I don’t understand where they’re coming from. As a result, I can feel like I’m walking on thin ice around them, like I’m liable to inadvertently say or do something offensive for lack of understanding why certain things are important. As has been mentioned by several posters already, it’s like a series of memos that I just never got. And still don’t get.

And as for the FJ part of it (how so variant affect Fe’ers, imo)- I think that FJs just like to have an understanding of interpersonal dynamics with others before actually interacting with them, because we’re less malleable in the moment (perception directed inward- not outward at external environment). And it seems like least so variant FJs can be just as rigid, but the expectations we get rigid about are more personalized/specific. If I expect to have dinner with someone, it isn’t going to be because ‘that’s how people show they care about each other’ (or whatever *usual* reason, which I don’t purport to know because- again- I don’t get those memos)- it’ll be because I’ve become accustomed to connecting with that person through having dinner with them. Also, because I don’t get the memos- there’s a lot of stuff that I don’t take personally because I won't even realize most people consider it offensive in the first place.

 

[Thalassa]

And as for the FJ part of it (how so variant affect Fe’ers, imo)- I think that FJs just like to have an understanding of interpersonal dynamics with others before actually interacting with them, because we’re less malleable in the moment (perception directed inward- not outward at external environment). And it seems like least so variant FJs can be just as rigid, but the expectations we get rigid about are more personalized/specific. If I expect to have dinner with someone, it isn’t going to be because ‘that’s how people show they care about each other’ (or whatever *usual* reason, which I don’t purport to know because- again- I don’t get those memos)- it’ll be because I’ve become accustomed to connecting with that person through having dinner with them. Also, because I don’t get the memos- there’s a lot of stuff that I don’t take personally because I won't even realize most people consider it offensive in the first place.

And this is what I understand. In this regard I appreciate Fe. Deeply.

 

[Southern Kross]

Once again, reading a thread like this just makes me even more confused about whether or not I'm really SO/SP variant. I agree with much of what the SO lasters are saying. Anyone on here think I'm not SO/SP?

I wouldn't doubt it just yet as most people seem to have confused SO with extroversion or being FJ.

I'm a INFP 4w5 so/sp, and I'm awkward, shy, and withdrawn. I dislike group work, I rarely party, and am dreadful at networking (and despise doing it). However, none of these factors necessarily correlate with the social variant. Its much more about being adaptive and interested in affecting others.

Here is decent description:

Social (aka "Adaptive") Instinct

Just as many people tend to misidentify themselves as Sexual types because they want one-on-one relationships, many people fail to recognize themselves as Social types because they get the (false) idea that this means always being involved in groups, meetings, and parties. If Self-Preservation types are interested in adjusting the environment to make themselves more secure and comfortable, Social types adapt themselves to serve the needs of the social situation they find themselves in. Thus, Social types are highly aware of other people, whether they are in intimate situations or in groups. They are also aware of how their actions and attitudes are affecting those around them. Moreover, Sexual types seek intimacy, Social types seek personal connection: they want to stay in long-term contact with people and to be involved in their world. Social types are the most concerned with doing things that will have some impact on their community, or even broader domains. They tend to be warmer, more open, engaging, and socially responsible than the other two types. In their primary relationships, they seek partners with whom they can share social activities, wanting their intimates to get involved in projects and events with them. Paradoxically, they actually tend to avoid long periods of exclusive intimacy and quiet solitude, seeing both as potentially limiting. Social types lose their sense of identity and meaning when they are not involved with others in activities that transcend their individual interests.

Source

You're a 5, right SuchIrony? Here's a 5 so description:

Social Fives: "Recognition and Hierarchy"

-I prefer to work in a flexible, unstructured way and to set my own goals.
-I like either to be self-employed or to have a safe nook in the hierarchy of a university or company where I can be relatively autonomous.
-Rules and regulations often get in my way.
-When I do high-quality work, I like praise from people who matter to me, but I don't usually ask for it.
-Either I attend meetings in order to pick up knowledge and meet interesting people, or I avoid groups and organizations altogether.
-As an extrovert, I like overt attention for my ideas and contributions, As an introvert, I am usually satisfied by having my work known and my name respected but am embarrassed by showy accolades.
-I love to dig out information and find out what the experts in my field, and in other fields, have to say.

Social Fives usually appear more extroverted than other Fives.

Source

 

[Such Irony]

Source

You're a 5, right SuchIrony? Here's a 5 so description:


Source

I very much relate to that description.

 

[PeaceBaby]

SO far I have found this thread extremely interesting to follow ... because much of what's "disliked" about the so variant is not what I think of as the expression of being so-dom in my life. Much like what Southern Kross has said very well above. I especially liked this:

Its much more about being adaptive and interested in affecting others.

I guess I see it as being aware of what's going on interpersonally, and helping things run smoothly in a group? For example, if someone tells a joke that makes others in a group uncomfortable, I can smooth that over socially for all parties - the one who made a joke with no clue they have just offended a couple of other people in the party, and the offended parties to realize it likely was delivered clumsily but with no ill intent. If I see people dominating a conversation I can draw them elsewhere, and for the ones who don't have a say I can create an opportunity for them to pipe up and join in if they so desire it. Sometimes I can literally see the words trying to burst out of someone and they are just waiting for the right way to jump in. So, I can make that space for them.

When my kids were younger, we did have a "let's eat dinner at the table together at least once a day" structure, but it was loose and flexible to the moment too. If a hockey game was on TV, or we decided to eat on the deck and enjoy the weather, I would just put the food out and everyone would self-serve, buffet style, and eat wherever they wanted. So this is how I see it as being an adaptive function, as opposed to a restrictive one.

And it's been fun to follow this thread because I feel a little like what Fe doms and auxs must feel like, reading some of the interpretations of Fe on the forum - Fe is sometimes seen as that kind of "follow the rules of the group" function too. Undoubtedly, me being a 9 so-dom looks quite a bit different than another enneatype so-dom. Even so, I guess I see so-dom as being adroit to the people-nuances that go on in groups, rather than controlling? And when I see people who are being overly controlling, my mandate is to soften that? Sort of the peace-making thing at work...

I would love to hear fidelia's opinion in this thread - she's an INFJ 1w9 so-dom ... I should make a thread on how does being an Fe-dom or aux so-dom differ from Fi-dom or aux so-dom. Interesting to contemplate that. How to separate what's Fe and so-dom could get potentially pretty muddy.

And as an aside, it's probably why I love watching Survivor too - put a bunch of people together and watch everyone maneuver; there are those who "get" the rules and are able to navigate well around others, and then there are those who have no clue about how they are coming across.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I was kind of thinking the same thing- what Southern Kross wrote about the Fe comparison- in reading this thread, and even had reservations about the way I phrased my own comment. But I don’t know, it just makes sense that someone whose attention goes towards being in the company of others is going to have a better grasp of social convention. This isn’t to say their values are determined by external sources, but they’re instinctively going to be paying more attention to what facilitates getting along with others. What should seem like ‘common sense’ to an individual will vary according to what that individual is most likely to pay attention to. And I think the comments about ‘not getting the memos’ reflect differences that appear because priorities are set in different areas. I’m probably not explaining this very well, but I don’t have time right now to figure out how to articulate it better. I just wanted to add that the point Southern Kross made is something that occurred to me. And in FJs, it would stand to reason that it would amplify Fe’s tendency to presume ‘common sense’ should revolve more around getting along with others when that Fe’er is so-variant dominant (so the comments some have made in that regard make sense to me). I just also think it’s important to mention that it isn’t all inclusive. There are so dominant Fe’ers who don’t impose this presumption on others around them.


[edit:] And as an interesting side note- though I don't have time to look it up right now to provide a link- I know I've read before that children who grow up in homes where everyone eats dinner together at the table at the same time actually do better in school.

 

[brainheart]

So the question is, is the instinctual variant your focus or what you're skilled at? (or both, obviously, depending on the person.) I have a type four friend who lacks many social skills but is painfully socially aware. His flaws in this area destroy him. He dreams of achieving something great; he only wants to do something if he can make a big impact, be the top in his artistic field. The fact he has yet to do this fills him with great shame.

Conversely, sure I can be self-conscious about things, but for me it's more about, say, putting my heart, secret thoughts out there for everyone to see. I don't desire greatness, just to be doing what matters to me. The fact that I have yet to do this fills me with remorse. I, however, have better social skills than he does- not great, but decent. But it's not something I think about much. I'd rather just do what I want to do, who cares about the group response?

So... Which is so or no or neither?

 

[Goosebump]

so/sx people seem to be into social duty and serving their country and I'm thinking "hell no, I'm not gonna go die for a country. I didn't even choose to be born here in the first place. why should I have to be subserviant to this socially reinforced illusion you call a society" I don't usually say this outloud, but occasionally I do

I'm so/sx and I don't care about serving my country. In fact, I think extreme nationalism is quite scary and pointless. I think people of different enneagram numbers or MBTI types can be like this, but instinctual variants have nothing to do with it. How my SO manifests in term of community has to do with how I feel about it. For example, joining a community that supports environment conservation or wildlife, hell yes. Christian American Association, no. Pretty much, I want to be involved with others that share the same ideas as me, not just any will do. Being SO doesn't mean being a conformist or social fanatic, it just means I need a wider circle of people (that I like) than non-so.

 

[Goosebump]

So the question is, is the instinctual variant your focus or what you're skilled at? (or both, obviously, depending on the person.) I have a type four friend who lacks many social skills but is painfully socially aware. His flaws in this area destroy him. He dreams of achieving something great; he only wants to do something if he can make a big impact, be the top in his artistic field. The fact he has yet to do this fills him with great shame.

Conversely, sure I can be self-conscious about things, but for me it's more about, say, putting my heart, secret thoughts out there for everyone to see. I don't desire greatness, just to be doing what matters to me. The fact that I have yet to do this fills me with remorse. I, however, have better social skills than he does- not great, but decent. But it's not something I think about much. I'd rather just do what I want to do, who cares about the group response?

So... Which is so or no or neither?

I think it has to do more with focus. I'm not very skilled with social situations and can be super awkward. Many times, I feel clueless about what to do socially. I think So differ from non-So is that their need to feel belonged or to contribute to a group is a lot greater.

 

[Viridian]

I'm so/sx and I don't care about serving my country. In fact, I think extreme nationalism is quite scary and pointless. I think people of different enneagram numbers or MBTI types can be like this, but instinctual variants have nothing to do with it. How my SO manifests in term of community has to do with how I feel about it. For example, joining a community that supports environment conservation or wildlife, hell yes. Christian American Association, no. Pretty much, I want to be involved with others that share the same ideas as me, not just any will do. Being SO doesn't mean being a conformist or social fanatic, it just means I need a wider circle of people (that I like) than non-so.

I think so-dom means being attentive to the social landscape, not necessarily compliant to it... Orwell was a so-dom known for his biting social satire and criticism of political power and of those who misused it.

 

[Southern Kross]

I very much relate to that description.

Glad to help

I guess I see it as being aware of what's going on interpersonally, and helping things run smoothly in a group?

Yes, I agree. This is definitely an important part of it.

For example, if someone tells a joke that makes others in a group uncomfortable, I can smooth that over socially for all parties - the one who made a joke with no clue they have just offended a couple of other people in the party, and the offended parties to realize it likely was delivered clumsily but with no ill intent. If I see people dominating a conversation I can draw them elsewhere, and for the ones who don't have a say I can create an opportunity for them to pipe up and join in if they so desire it. Sometimes I can literally see the words trying to burst out of someone and they are just waiting for the right way to jump in. So, I can make that space for them.

I really identify with those examples

Undoubtedly, me being a 9 so-dom looks quite a bit different than another enneatype so-dom. Even so, I guess I see so-dom as being adroit to the people-nuances that go on in groups, rather than controlling? And when I see people who are being overly controlling, my mandate is to soften that? Sort of the peace-making thing at work...

I think that's the point. Its a skill people can use to suit their own ends: sometimes that's manipulation, sometimes that's interpersonal harmony.

And as an aside, it's probably why I love watching Survivor too - put a bunch of people together and watch everyone maneuver; there are those who "get" the rules and are able to navigate well around others, and then there are those who have no clue about how they are coming across.

Me too! That's the only reason I watch it.

I just wanted to add that the point Southern Kross made is something that occurred to me. And in FJs, it would stand to reason that it would amplify Fe’s tendency to presume ‘common sense’ should revolve more around getting along with others when that Fe’er is so-variant dominant (so the comments some have made in that regard make sense to me).

Yes, that is an interesting thought. I wonder a FJ would just absorb so into Fe or whether it would operate separately. For my part I don't see so as being as strong, specific and proactive as Fe. I find it gives me a certain consciousness but I lack the skill to act on it correctly - perhaps when combined with Fe it gains more direction.

Anyway, I should stop the derail.

 

[mrcockburn]

LOL.. eat whenever you want.

I'm so/sp and I don't really care about what other people do...but I feel kind of guilty that it's 2:30AM and I'm not asleep, because now I'm going to wake up later than everyone else (I work for myself) and feel like a grungy slob.

Generally, I set certain expectations for myself, but I'm laissez faire about others' lives, unless they somehow affect mine.

 

[Such Irony]

I just got to thinking that variant in itself is kind of meaningless without knowing your actual enneagram type. A social 5 is different from a social 3, which is different from a social 6, etc. Alot of the social last behaviors that people are mentioning in this thread that I relate to could just be the independence of enneagram type 5.

 

[Southern Kross]

I just got to thinking that variant in itself is kind of meaningless without knowing your actual enneagram type. A social 5 is different from a social 3, which is different from a social 6, etc. Alot of the social last behaviors that people are mentioning in this thread that I relate to could just be the independence of enneagram type 5.

I will often test sp (on bad tests) because of my strong 5 wing. A social 5 at first glance can seem like a kind of a contradiction . On the other hand it could explain some of your type confusion that you have previously mentioned.

 

[Elfboy]

LOL.. eat whenever you want.

I'm so/sp and I don't really care about what other people do...but I feel kind of guilty that it's 2:30AM and I'm not asleep, because now I'm going to wake up later than everyone else (I work for myself) and feel like a grungy slob.

Generally, I set certain expectations for myself, but I'm laissez faire about others' lives, unless they somehow affect mine.

why would you feel guilty for that. you work for yourself, you can wake up whenever the fuck you want, it's one of your job benefits

 

[Elfboy]

I will often test sp (on bad tests) because of my strong 5 wing. A social 5 at first glance can seem like a kind of a contradiction . On the other hand it could explain some of your type confusion that you have previously mentioned.

a social 4, a social 5 or a social INFP can all seem contradictory at first glance

 

[sculpting]

I am 4w5 sp/sx.

I tend to be mostly quiet and reserved or serious and analytical. I often have the problem of thinking someone is a friend, though, and letting them see too much of the sx side of me, which is enfp "silly switch" or is very affectionate and sweet, or sometimes it is unprocessed emotional content. When this happens, they freak out and withdraw, as depending upon who they are, it is totally weird for them

ESTPs can be the hardest as they REALLY love sweet Fi and even enjoy Ne silliness, but emo-sad Fi is too intense. Pretty much the same thing for ENTPs. I suspect if I functioned in a more innate so style, I might be slower to disclose. Learning to not disclose and only forge partial, more shallow aquaintence style friendships is something I am learning to do slowly.

Additionally I also recognize the "not getting the memo" on unspoken or expected social rituals. Once someone points out an area of need-table manners for instance-I can go learn exactly what I need to know and do just fine-but without explicit guidance and feedback, I am in the dark.

 

[brainheart]

I am 4w5 sp/sx.

I tend to be mostly quiet and reserved or serious and analytical. I often have the problem of thinking someone is a friend, though, and letting them see too much of the sx side of me, which is enfp "silly switch" or is very affectionate and sweet, or sometimes it is unprocessed emotional content. When this happens, they freak out and withdraw, as depending upon who they are, it is totally weird for them.

Yeah, I for sure hear that.