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Clockwork Orange

wildcat

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I discussed the Enneagram loci number (27) with Xander.
It is many years ago.

I recall we agreed the loci number 27 is bound to leave loci behind.
One of us proposed the actual number of the loci is 36, and one of us proposed it may be 45.
But of course, if we have 36, 45 is an underhand. And vice versa.
36/4 = 9/1
9/2 = 4,5
10 = (T)1

In any viewpoint of the MBTI a dimension is lost. Parallelly we lose the numbers of the lost dimension.
They appear only when we shift viewpoint.
Enneagram is different. We silent the numbers, we do not lose them.
How to find the silent numbers?

Time is linear.
Space is not.
The unlinear is not the measure of the linear.
The linear is the measure of the unlinear.
 

Curator

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This is not at all what I thought this thread would be about,lol
 

Spamtar

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LSD (when not wonderfull) is a horrible drug
dave-chapelle-as-rick-james.jpg
 

skylights

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time is not truly linear though is it... :)
perhaps that is where we need to look for the types...

relatedly, wildcat, i would be interested to hear your opinion on the progression of number-types through the enneagram. thus far the only explanation i have seen of the progression is through a "lifelife":

1 father / rule-creator, male lifegiving principle
2 mother / nurturer, female lifegiving principle
3 first child / succeeder, child principle, carries on the lifeforce

first gate between archetypes and peer relation - entrance of child into adolescence

4 second child / differentiating between self and first child/others, understanding of self
5 entrance into adolescence / observer of peer group, knowledge source of the group
6 adolescence / guardian of peer bonds, protector of the greater good from harm

second gate between peer relation and independence - entrance of adolescent into adulthood

7 late adolescence / explorer, enjoying, figuring out what one wants
8 adulthood / completely independent utilization of free will
9 the before-birth and after-death/ uniter of the lifecycle, "buddha" state

third gate between independence and archetypes - entrance of differentiated adult into undifferentiated rebirth

1,2,3...
 

wildcat

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time is not truly linear though is it... :)
perhaps that is where we need to look for the types...

relatedly, wildcat, i would be interested to hear your opinion on the progression of number-types through the enneagram. thus far the only explanation i have seen of the progression is through a "lifelife":

1 father / rule-creator, male lifegiving principle
2 mother / nurturer, female lifegiving principle
3 first child / succeeder, child principle, carries on the lifeforce

first gate between archetypes and peer relation - entrance of child into adolescence

4 second child / differentiating between self and first child/others, understanding of self
5 entrance into adolescence / observer of peer group, knowledge source of the group
6 adolescence / guardian of peer bonds, protector of the greater good from harm

second gate between peer relation and independence - entrance of adolescent into adulthood

7 late adolescence / explorer, enjoying, figuring out what one wants
8 adulthood / completely independent utilization of free will
9 the before-birth and after-death/ uniter of the lifecycle, "buddha" state

third gate between independence and archetypes - entrance of differentiated adult into undifferentiated rebirth

1,2,3...

Admirable, skylights. :)

I like what you wrote.
An oriental idea, and interesting.
I see vaguely, but I see the contour of what you mean.
It looks good and promising. I shall surely think of what you say.

I must confess to my abysmal ignorance of Enneagram, in general. I have a very vague idea.
But by what you wrote, you have helped me to understand.

Time .. is not completely linear in the sense that nothing is. There is a connection. We are going to look into this connection here.

Good work, skylights. Lots of thanks. :)
 

wildcat

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LSD (when not wonderfull) is a horrible drug
dave-chapelle-as-rick-james.jpg

A very nice picture, spamtar.
I had a neighbour, a poet, who used LSD. I read his poetry in a bookshop.
It was good. His collection of poems was titled The Being.
I did not know him well, we greeted each other on the staircase and in the artists' coffee shop. Sometimes we borrowed money from each other. He asked a friend to ask me if I'd accept one of his Cannabis plants to grow on my window sill.
I was glad to be of assistance.
Later I read in the paper he had some trouble with the police.
I very much symphatized with the poet.
I had some trouble with the police myself.
A nasty breed of people, always messing up with respectable citizens. :)
 

skylights

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Admirable, skylights. :)

I like what you wrote.
An oriental idea, and interesting.
I see vaguely, but I see the contour of what you mean.
It looks good and promising. I shall surely think of what you say.

I must confess to my abysmal ignorance of Enneagram, in general. I have a very vague idea.
But by what you wrote, you have helped me to understand.

Time .. is not completely linear in the sense that nothing is. There is a connection. We are going to look into this connection here.

Good work, skylights. Lots of thanks. :)

well thank you sir, i hope it's interesting food for thought.

i don't know much about the enneagram either... i'm definitely still in the very early stages of trying to understand the system. so of course your post was quite intriguing to me :)
 

wildcat

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well thank you sir, i hope it's interesting food for thought.

i don't know much about the enneagram either... i'm definitely still in the very early stages of trying to understand the system. so of course your post was quite intriguing to me :)

Yes, thank you skylights. We are in the same boat, then. :)
By the way, please tell me your Enneagram type, so we might try to work out what is your Enneagram shadow.
Yes, we need to know the system. To know the system we at the outset need to know the shadow of each type.
May be a bit tricky. I might need some coffee. :)
 

skylights

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Yes, thank you skylights. We are in the same boat, then. :)
By the way, please tell me your Enneagram type, so we might try to work out what is your Enneagram shadow.
Yes, we need to know the system. To know the system we at the outset need to know the shadow of each type.
May be a bit tricky. I might need some coffee. :)

:)

i'm not sure... i see myself in both 6w7 and 3w4. some days i think i am more the one, other days, more the other.

do you know your type?
 

wildcat

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:)

i'm not sure... i see myself in both 6w7 and 3w4. some days i think i am more the one, other days, more the other.

do you know your type?

Interesting. Your both alternatives have a rising curve. If you would have seen yourself in both 7w6 and
4w3, your alternatives would have a declining curve.
We shall try to find the shadows of both your types.
Let us see.
Your types have rising curves. It means your shadow types are bound to have declining curves. Now we have already ruled out all the E types with risings curves. Your shadow types can only be found among these types:

6w5
7w6
8w7- I suspect this may be one of your shadows: I see it is six hours removed of 3w4 in the clockwork.
9w8
1w9- this looks like a rising curve. It isn't. One is at the top of 9, not below. (1= (T)10).
5w4
4w3
3w2
2w1- this one is six hours removed of 6w7. Might be your shadow.

My type is 5w4. A declining curve. It is six hours removed of 9w1.
9w1 erroneously looks like a declining curve. (The system can no way see 1 and 9 as neighbours, unless it reads one as 10- maintaining 1 at the top position.)

I shall check for any errors. :)
Thanks for the contribution!
 

skylights

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i did suspect you were 5w4 :) i have a brother who is 5w4 INTP as well.

i drew a picture of how i am thinking.

mi28hg.png


but to make 36 or 45... where in space do the additional points lie? above and below? the other thing... some people describe themselves as "omni"... no wing preference... where does the shadow of the 9 omni lie?

unless we are supposed to work in 3s, not 2s, and there are really 2 shadows to each type...?
 

wildcat

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i did suspect you were 5w4 :) i have a brother who is 5w4 INTP as well.

i drew a picture of how i am thinking.

mi28hg.png


but to make 36 or 45... where in space do the additional points lie? above and below? the other thing... some people describe themselves as "omni"... no wing preference... where does the shadow of the 9 omni lie?

Thank you, skylights. A perfect match.
Excellent. :)

I begin with the end.
The shadow of 9 omni is a silent number.
The exact position of the shadow of 9 lies in the middle position between 4w5
and 5w4.
The omni does not shadow in a 27 unit.
We add number 9. Then we can find the position of the shadow of the omni. Only we can not name it. The position is not found in the category book of the Enneagram!
27 + 9 = 36 = 9 X 4
It is not that the Enneagram should not follow the clockwork. It does. The silent numbers do exist in its system.
It is therefore we call them silent numbers.

36 = 9 X 4 = 12 X 3
A match in the 9 set and in the 12 set of the clockwork.
36 - 9 = 27
Hence we have 9 silent numbers.
The shadow of each one is an omni.

Your questions are the essential questions exactly.
I am only a novice, like you. Your questions lead my way.
We have only started. I am sure we shall find answers to your questions. :) Bear with me.
Good work, skylights!
 

skylights

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well, i appear to have only caught up to your reasoning!

i am pleased nonetheless ;)
 

wildcat

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well, i appear to have only caught up to your reasoning!

i am pleased nonetheless ;)

It is all right, skylights. :)
You are 6w7 and 3w4.
You shadow 2w1 and 8w7, respectively.
Only according to the clockwork, so far.

Let us check with the figureline alone.
We shall leave out the clockwork for a minute.
Always double-check.

6x7 contra 2w1.
I do not see a 9 here: It means we exclude (T)1.

Note direction, order, and declension simultaneously.

Let us say 6721 follows a linear composition 1234:
Rising curve: 67
Declining curve: 21
inference
composition change to 3142
equals 2617
9 = 26 - 17
A match.

Let us look at your alias.
3w4 contra 8w7
9 = 47 - 38
Another match. :)

We do not add the silent numbers.
They are already there.
We have only found them.
 

Curator

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this is all confusingly interesting,lol... what about a 9 that doesnt have any readily dominant wing...
 

wildcat

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this is all confusingly interesting,lol... what about a 9 that doesnt have any readily dominant wing...

You mean the shadow?
9 X 3 = 27
9 X 4 = 36
The shadow of a wingless 9 is a silent number. Enneagram counts only 27; The 9 shadows of wingless numbers are therefore called silent.
5w4 is less than 5; 4w5 is as much more than 4 as 5w4 is less than 5 .
Therefore the exact position of the silent shadow of 9 = 4,5.

Check

9 - 9 = 0
9/2 = 4,5
4,5 - 0 = 4,5

The position of the silent shadow of nine = 4,5
Therefore it is found in the middle position between 4w5 and 5w4.

9 - 8 = 1
4,5 - 1 = 3,5
Therefore the silent shadow of 8 is found between 3w4 and 4w3

9 - 7 = 2
4,5 - 2 = 2,5
The silent shadow of 7 is found between 2w3 and 3w2

etc :)
 

wildcat

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My type as said = 5w4
The silent shadow of E 9 has the position of 4,5
Therefore my shadow = 9w1

check

5w4 has a declining curve
1 = (T)10
9w1 has a rising curve:
5491
>1495
as said 1 = (T)10

9 = 104 - 95
 
Last edited:

Curator

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hmmm, interesting, thanks.
 
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