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Why should I believe the Enneagram is accurate?

INTJMom

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I was reading yesterday that the Enneagram was developed by some ancient Muslims, then further developed by some others. Who's to say that any of those people were even right?

Who's to say there are only 9 basic motivations in the world? What if there are 12?

Somebody tell me why I should believe it's accurate at describing people.
 

Nadir

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You could say the same about MBTI. These are questions you can ask but only yourself can answer.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
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MBTI is function based and creates its 16 archetypes from functions, and the functions together supposedly cover "all cases." (It can still be debated whether this is accurate, but at least the logic is followable.)

The Enneagram is essentially a collection of nine archetype seemingly driven more by the diagram than vice versa. There is no inherent proof that there are only nine archetypes of human beings (and the Threes can sometimes become a catch-all since they are defined as not being defined, in a sense).

Really, I take each archetype in the Enneagram on its own, as to its validity in terms of reflection in the average population/life... and I think it can offer some general insights on how people better or worsen based on their general personality. (The directions of integration and disintegration.)

But you just don't know.... regardless of what the Sufis said. :)
 

Athenian200

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I was reading yesterday that the Enneagram was developed by some ancient Muslims, then further developed by some others. Who's to say that any of those people were even right?

Who's to say there are only 9 basic motivations in the world? What if there are 12?

Somebody tell me why I should believe it's accurate at describing people.

I don't think it was developed by Muslims, but by some people who were into that New Age spirituality/chakra-type stuff or something. That was what I heard.

I don't really think it's accurate, but the archetypes and system are interesting enough that I like to try and look at people through that lens to see how well they can fit.
 

arcticangel02

To the top of the world
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I was reading yesterday that the Enneagram was developed by some ancient Muslims, then further developed by some others. Who's to say that any of those people were even right?

Why do I sense your sudden disbelief in the system is because you heard Muslims developed it? :huh:



For what it's worth, though, I agree with Jennifer. Enneagram makes less sense to me than MBTI does.
 

Totenkindly

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I don't think it was developed by Muslims, but by some people who were into that New Age spirituality/chakra-type stuff or something. That was what I heard.

Here is the claim by Riso, the proponent doing the most to stabilize the Enneagram as a "legitimate tool."

2.Where did the Enneagram come from?

The history and transmission of the Enneagram are mysterious and complicated affairs, although they become clearer if we distinguish between the Enneagram symbol and the descriptions of the nine types which are gaining such worldwide attention. The symbol (the circle with the inner triangle and hexagon) is ancient, dating back to Pythagoras or even earlier. The concept of the nine personality types has elements rooted in several traditional teachings such as the Seven Deadly Sins (beginning in the 4th century), and the Kabbalah (beginning in the 12th century) but the psychological descriptions of the types, on the other hand, are modern and are the work of modern authors.

George Gurdjieff brought the symbol to the West around 1900, and Oscar Ichazo was the first to synthesize the symbol with elements of the teachings about the types. He was the first to identify the core qualities of each of the nine types, and his work was expanded on by the psychiatrist Claudio Naranjo who also introduced the panel method for gathering information about the types. Naranjo's work, in turn, has been expanded on by Don Riso and Russ Hudson who added many new elements to the early Enneagram system-most notably the lengthy systematic descriptions of the nine types, as well as the nine internal Levels of Development, the "inner logic" of each type.

For more information, see The Traditional Enneagram and Enneagram Contributions, as well as the "Origins" chapter in Personality Types and "Ancient Roots, Modern Insights" in The Wisdom of the Enneagram.

This claim is pretty common by Enneagram proponents.
 

INTJMom

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Why do I sense your sudden disbelief in the system is because you heard Muslims developed it? :huh:
...
I was just stating a fact.
The whole system seems awfully "mushy" to me.
Too confusing, not well enough defined, too many variables, and there seems to be no consensus from one description to the next.
That is what is generating my lack of trust.
 

Athenian200

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Why do I sense your sudden disbelief in the system is because you heard Muslims developed it? :huh:

Why do I sense that you believe INTJMom to be a less-than-tolerant person? I'm sure she didn't mean it that way, she was probably just mentioning that off-hand. I've had questions about the accuracy of it myself, and I'd never even heard that.

Now, let's not start jumping to conclusions about other's motivations and getting angry here, okay?
 

INTJMom

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Here is the claim by Riso, the proponent doing the most to stabilize the Enneagram as a "legitimate tool."

This claim is pretty common by Enneagram proponents.
Thank you, Jennifer.
 

arcticangel02

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Why do I sense that you believe INTJMom to be a less-than-tolerant person? I'm sure she didn't mean it that way, she was probably just mentioning that off-hand. I've had questions about the accuracy of it myself, and I'd never even heard that.

Now, let's not start jumping to conclusions about other's motivations and getting angry here, okay?

I'm not getting angry! ^^

I just raised my eyebrows because that was all she stated before saying she doubted the system. And then said "Who's to say that any of those people were even right?"

To me that sounded like her main reason for disbelief was the people who had created the system.

Thus, I said something.

And now she's clarified and there will be no further misunderstanding or offense caused. Easy! :)

I was just stating a fact.
The whole system seems awfully "mushy" to me.
Too confusing, not well enough defined, too many variables, and there seems to be no consensus from one description to the next.
That is what is generating my lack of trust.

I agree with you, and those reasons make perfect sense. Thanks for clarifying. :)
 

"?"

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There are a great deal more than nine types in the enneagram. If you factor in a type’s wing that number instantly grows to 18. There six variants that will raise the number to 108. This is considered before speculating on other factors such as tri-fix, triads and your level of health.

I think what the personality type system does is attempt to oversimplify which is why many follow it. Yet even then most are not appreciating the fluidity of the system, and considering that Jung never referred to simple dichotomies. In fact, Jung was against using his work to create full blown personality typing. It is my understanding that he expounded on Freud’s work to determine that there are more than just extroverted types (notice the different spelling) and subsequently realized that not only are there extraverted/introverted types, but for some reason people use the attitudes differently resulting in his functions.

The enneagram is highly complex, and as such anyone who has a low threshold for complexity will not tolerate following the system. I tend to step back from the enneagram for several years to digest what I have learned and then return. When I step back from personality type, it’s usually because I have become bored with the system until I find another component worth learning.
 

Zybd03

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I was reading yesterday that the Enneagram was developed by some ancient Muslims, then further developed by some others. Who's to say that any of those people were even right?

Who's to say there are only 9 basic motivations in the world? What if there are 12?

Somebody tell me why I should believe it's accurate at describing people.

After you read the books I recommended, you will see the depth of the Enneagram. It is not an easy concept to absorb and the nuggets of information available on the internet do not provide the whole picture. I have read Helen Palmer, Riso-Hudson, and Father Richard Rohr ( a Catholic priest who has been a frequent guest on Dr. Oz's XM radio show) and have found Hurley and Dobson to be the most clear description of the Enneagram.

You will have to do the work to determine if the Enneagram is true for you. It is true for me.
 

"?"

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This thread does raise the question as to whether it is one more stereotype of this system to say that Se types have less tolerance for theory than Ne Types. I say that because you're not alone "Mom" and other people who prefer intuition have an arduous time comprehending the enneagram.
 

Xander

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I wouldn't have believed the theory as working if it had not worked in my case. Who knows, perhaps it doesn't work for everyone? No system does I believe. I know those who refute the MBTI saying that either the boxes are fortune tellers (ie telling porkies) or they can't work. How can there be only 16 types of people?
 

wedekit

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The MBTI only covers differences in cognitive processes if I remember correctly, and from there we can derive 16 different combinations. These combinations allows them to infer further into a person's behavior. It's a given that we haven't covered everything there is to personality but we have to start somewhere. From here all we need to do is to refine and polish. I have met people who are the same type who are nothing alike, yet they both claim that the type fits them perfectly.

The enneagram profiles just seem more... melodramatic to me.
 

INTJMom

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That's a lot to think about.

There are a great deal more than nine types in the enneagram. If you factor in a type’s wing that number instantly grows to 18.
My math isn't that great but wouldn't it be 27? Doesn't each type have 2 wings available, or am I mistaken?

There six variants that will raise the number to 108. This is considered before speculating on other factors such as tri-fix, triads and your level of health.
...
The enneagram is highly complex, and as such anyone who has a low threshold for complexity will not tolerate following the system. I tend to step back from the enneagram for several years to digest what I have learned and then return. When I step back from personality type, it’s usually because I have become bored with the system until I find another component worth learning.
I wonder if I should bother delving into it, if it really is that complex.
I hate overly complicated things.

Even MBTT was hard for me to comprehend.
 

"?"

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I think we have to keep in mind that, and refrain from, attempting to correlate even systems that refer to Meyers-Briggs' four letter codes. Keirsey, Socionics, the Tiegers, Otto Kroeger, the BBC and Best Fit Types refer to the four letter codes, however have differing theories and definitely different descriptions.

Clearly the enneagram does not correlate well with MBTI, and usually even enneagram theorists don't equally agree with each other. Wedekit is correct in the refining and polishing, but that does not equate to correlating the systems. I think finding the system that works best for you personally is better and being comfortable with that system, which means debates on varied systems is really a moot point.
 

redacted

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My math isn't that great but wouldn't it be 27? Doesn't each type have 2 wings available, or am I mistaken?

2*9 = 18 (this is assuming you either have one wing or the other)

then there are 6 variant stackings possible:
sx/sp
sx/so
sp/sx
sp/so
so/sx
so/sp

18*6 = 108

but yeah, i agree with you. the whole 9 types (or 18, or 108) thing seems much more arbitrary than MBTI, since MBTI is based on opposing cognitive processes, and enneagram just randomly chose 9 as the number of primary coping strategies.
 

Zybd03

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Hurley states wings only apply to indicate your support center, which is the center closest to your preferred center. The centers are Thinking (Types 5, 6, 7), Doing (Types 8, 9, 1), and Feeling (Types 2, 3, 4). Types 3, 6, and 9 do not have wings at all. So an example would be a Type 4 could only have 5 as a wing, since the Feeling center is preferred and supported by the Thinking center. The Doing center is repressed for the Type 4.

According to the theory, you are only one Enneagram type.
 

wedekit

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I find the enneagram extremely useful when brainstorming characters for fiction. Even more useful than the MBTI. Of course, when I take the character to the next step I convert their enneagram type into the best fitting MBTI type (which normally takes a long time for me to finally settle on one). I see the use for both systems as revolutionary in the field of personality psychology, but maybe not the most reliable at the moment. I would encourage both systems to continue developing and maybe at some point they will be developed enough to represent two separate and distinct layers of our personality.

I would love to dedicate my life to social/personality psychology, but all of the grad schools I encounter have little interest or concentration on personality typology... which is really disappointing. I would probably die happy if I could find a way to dedicate my life to this, as well as teach and write books. :)
 
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