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What Each Type Looks for in a Relationship - & What Interferes

Starry

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Joined
May 22, 2010
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6,103
e6 here. I'm not much of a complainer...but the testing...yes. That is so hard for me to admit *cringe*
 

Z Buck McFate

Pepperidge Farm remembers.
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Aug 25, 2009
Messages
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Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
If you don't know you're doing it, can it really be described as "manipulation"?

I think if something/one is making you bored or disrespecting you it's perfectly natural that you withdraw from that stimulus.
By the time I've completely withdrawn/emotionally detached from a person, there is no question of my trying to manipulate them (there never is - the very idea is anathema to me). I've simply lost the ability to care. And once that happens there's really nothing more to say/do. If the relationship means something to me, I'll fight for a long time before that to try to keep communication going, but there comes a point where it's just more effort/pain than it's worth.

I was wondering the same thing when I read the op (“Manipulates by staying preoccupied with ideas and projects and by detaching emotionally from others”), because ‘staying preoccupied with ideas and projects’ and detaching seem more like coping devices than manipulative behaviors. At least for me- I do it for the sake of itself, not to elicit a specific response from someone else.

When I read through the other types’ supposedly ‘manipulative’ behaviors, I could see how they were manipulative. The fact that I'm only having trouble understanding how the Five description is manipulative seems maybe indicative that I can't see it because it’s too close to home. Dunno.
 

Arclight

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MBTI Type
INFJ
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6w5
I was wondering the same thing when I read the op (“Manipulates by staying preoccupied with ideas and projects and by detaching emotionally from others”), because ‘staying preoccupied with ideas and projects’ and detaching seem more like coping devices than manipulative behaviors. At least for me- I do it for the sake of itself, not to elicit a specific response from someone else.

When I read through the other types’ supposedly ‘manipulative’ behaviors, I could see how they were manipulative. The fact that I'm only having trouble understanding how the Five description is manipulative seems maybe indicative that I can't see it because it’s too close to home. Dunno.

It becomes manipualtive if it's avoidance .. being involved in any kind of relationship requires responsibility from each side.
If you are "busy" as a way of not dealing with something that involves not only your feelings but those of others, it's manipulative.

I know it's motivation seems born out of self preservation.

The information presented is in regard to relationships. Once in a relationship the focus of responsibility changes. Most people will feel manipulated if the relationship is always on your terms.
 

Starry

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Joined
May 22, 2010
Messages
6,103
I was wondering the same thing when I read the op (“Manipulates by staying preoccupied with ideas and projects and by detaching emotionally from others”), because ‘staying preoccupied with ideas and projects’ and detaching seem more like coping devices than manipulative behaviors. At least for me- I do it for the sake of itself, not to elicit a specific response from someone else.

When I read through the other types’ supposedly ‘manipulative’ behaviors, I could see how they were manipulative. The fact that I'm only having trouble understanding how the Five description is manipulative seems maybe indicative that I can't see it because it’s too close to home. Dunno.

I like this. Even with the e6 'testing'...where I am trying to elicit a specific response...I don't do it to manipulate per se. In other words I am trying to see the truth...not create/change what is true. It is a coping strategy to protect me from being taken 'off guard'.
 

Starry

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It becomes manipualtive if it's avoidance .. being involved in any kind of relationship requires responsibility from each side.
If you are "busy" as a way of not dealing with something that involves not only your feelings but those of others, it's manipulative.

I know it's motivation seems born out of self preservation.

The information presented is in regard to relationships. Once in a relationship the focus of responsibility changes. Most people will feel manipulated if the relationship is always on your terms.

Maybe I am not totally clear on the definition of manipulation...or how the definition may alter still with regards to relationships
 

Arclight

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INFJ
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6w5
Maybe I am not totally clear on the definition of manipulation...or how the definition may alter still with regards to relationships

The focus is not so much on the word manipulation as it is on responsibility.
As a 6w5, I am all to aware of the push/pull behavior inherent to both types as well as their need to self preserve.

If a choice is made to connect, you are no longer just responsible for your feelings. The type 5 has a tendency to want the relationship but to also want to maintain a type of status that belies their need for connection. They still want to behave as if they are single in some ways.
While they may think they are just protecting their own feelings, if the choice to do so is unilateral, it's irresponsible to the feelings of the other.
It's the balancing act of both the type 5 and 6 to remain connected to the other while maintaining this wall of protection.
It's hypocritical to ask others to be vulnerable in the name of your security but to not offer that same vulnerability in return.
This is manipulation no matter how you slice it. Especially if you are making yourself unavailable in the name of "being busy".
 

Arclight

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I just want to add.. I only say this because, I am so good at not being responsible, making unilateral decisions that affect others and withdrawing on my terms.

This is what the both the type 5 and 6 have to work on.
 

rav3n

.
Joined
Aug 6, 2010
Messages
11,655
Type Weird

What they look for
Dependability, strength, sexual compatibility, stimulation, variety, curiosity, intensity, involvement.

What gets in the way
Insisting on personal space, non-interference and postponing making commitments. Manipulates by staying preoccupied with ideas and projects and by detaching emotionally from others.
 

Starry

Active member
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May 22, 2010
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6,103
I just want to add.. I only say this because, I am so good at not being responsible, making unilateral decisions that affect others and withdrawing on my terms.

This is what the both the type 5 and 6 have to work on.

I just want everything my way.

EDIT: whoops...I forgot to put in the 'LOL' but maybe that is because I really do want everything my way...No LOL. Oh no!
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
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Apr 19, 2007
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BELF
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594
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sx/sp
Like Arc says, Five practices a passive manipulation (rather than a more conscious one), seeking to divert things into the intellectual and detached, although relationships are not detached by nature. Those who attempt to require more engagement are fended off, made to feel stupid or guilty or too emotional, etc., as if there is something wrong with them for not acting more like the Five.

Basically, the Five either has to remain completely alone (to maintain integrity) or else has to actually engage back in order to at least be fair in regards to the investments being made in her. But no one is completely self-contained; we all interact with people or benefit from other people to some degree.

Anyway, the term "manipulation" can be quibbled over, I suppose; traditionally, the Five is selfish... a hoarder of time and resources... afraid to take risks unless the answer is already known... afraid to risk the intellectual reputation... and not realizing, by Enneagram conventions, that intellect is not meant to be hoarded and is not an end in itself, but is a gift and talent to be spent when interacting with others. It's what the Five can bring to the table as a gift, not as a means to win resources for itself while otherwise fending off intrusions into its personal space.
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

Guest
A hoarder of knowledge... So, in general, is a five more likely to have an extreme fear of being wrong? Because I have that.... Big time. You know, now that I ask this, I see it's far to general to be one category. I suppose, is it intensified within the five more than all the others?
 

OrangeAppled

Sugar Hiccup
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Mar 20, 2009
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7,626
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INFP
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sp/sx
^ Pretty much. The image the 5 forms is about being intelligent & knowledgeable, so to appear wrong threatens their ego. In myself, I think my 5 wing motivations make me double check my things a lot (ie. verify my usage of words in the dictionary) and qualify expressions as my opinion as some sort preemptive defense to being wrong. It's sort of INFP style meets 5, I guess.
 

highlander

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Dec 23, 2009
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INTJ
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6w5
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sx/sp
Do these hold true for you? If so, how have you overcome these tendencies in your relationships (or how did they get in the way)?

Type Eight
What they look for
Dependability, loyalty, strength, sexual compatibility.

These are probably right.

What gets in the way
Insisting on maintaining control of others. Manipulates by dominating others and by demanding that others do as they say.

I've thought about it a good deal and honestly am not sure these are right for me. It may have something to do with being an INTJ. I need someone sufficiently independent who can stand up to the strength of my personality. So, if I were to control them, they wouldn't be independent enough.

I can be demanding I suppose though.
 

Z Buck McFate

Pepperidge Farm remembers.
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I like this. Even with the e6 'testing'...where I am trying to elicit a specific response...I don't do it to manipulate per se. In other words I am trying to see the truth...not create/change what is true. It is a coping strategy to protect me from being taken 'off guard'.

Yeah. So maybe the definition of manipulative here is more about the means by which we seek some form of personal control over the connection. I also have an association with the term 'manipulation' which infers creating/changing what is true for the sake of personal gain (as covert means to take advantage of another person). And I see withdrawing as means to prevent being taken advantage of oneself- but it's still a form of unilateral control I suppose.
 

Z Buck McFate

Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Joined
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sx/sp
A hoarder of knowledge... So, in general, is a five more likely to have an extreme fear of being wrong? Because I have that.... Big time. You know, now that I ask this, I see it's far to general to be one category. I suppose, is it intensified within the five more than all the others?

I think it's more a fear of appearing wrong- or of not being able to effectively defend one's position- than it is a fear of actually being wrong. It's a fear of having no credibility, of being incapable or incompetent, which motivates the hoarding of knowledge.
 

Polaris

AKA Nunki
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Apr 7, 2009
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sp/sx
I'm sure I'm a type Four, but the description for type Six matches me slightly better. I don't insist on having my emotional needs met--I usually subordinate my needs to the other person's--and while I don't vacillate between a need for distance and a need for closeness, either (if I'm in love with someone, I like to be around them as much as they'll comfortably let me), I do struggle with issues of self-doubt and reactivity (which I suppose doubles as being temperamental like a type Four), and have a very strong tendency to test the person over and over again to make sure that we're in good standing. In the past, I've also tended to express negativity, or complain, to put it in less flattering terms, in a subtle effort to make the other person feel responsible for me and therefore less likely to walk away.

Basically, the way that I've confronted those tendencies in myself is by realizing that a relationship can't exist in the presence of manipulation. If you're manipulating someone, whether you're doing it like a type Two or a Type Seven, you have already demonstrated that you're not in a real relationship. You're nudging the person this way and that in a fashion that shows that you regard them less as an autonomous human being and more as a lifeless object without any say for itself. A relationship with an object is fetishism, not romance. Secondly, your attempts to manipulate another person will almost inevitably push them away, because most people don't like to be controlled, and even those who do like to be controlled are unlikely to want to deal with the emotional responsibility that comes with being needed by someone.

In a real relationship, two people freely consort as equals; they don't have any need or desire to chain each other together.
 

Hopelandic

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Dec 13, 2009
Messages
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MBTI Type
me
I was wondering the same thing when I read the op (“Manipulates by staying preoccupied with ideas and projects and by detaching emotionally from others”), because ‘staying preoccupied with ideas and projects’ and detaching seem more like coping devices than manipulative behaviors. At least for me- I do it for the sake of itself, not to elicit a specific response from someone else.

When I read through the other types’ supposedly ‘manipulative’ behaviors, I could see how they were manipulative. The fact that I'm only having trouble understanding how the Five description is manipulative seems maybe indicative that I can't see it because it’s too close to home. Dunno.

It becomes manipualtive if it's avoidance .. being involved in any kind of relationship requires responsibility from each side.
If you are "busy" as a way of not dealing with something that involves not only your feelings but those of others, it's manipulative.

I know it's motivation seems born out of self preservation.

The information presented is in regard to relationships. Once in a relationship the focus of responsibility changes. Most people will feel manipulated if the relationship is always on your terms.

I just want to add.. I only say this because, I am so good at not being responsible, making unilateral decisions that affect others and withdrawing on my terms.

This is what the both the type 5 and 6 have to work on.

Like Arc says, Five practices a passive manipulation (rather than a more conscious one), seeking to divert things into the intellectual and detached, although relationships are not detached by nature. Those who attempt to require more engagement are fended off, made to feel stupid or guilty or too emotional, etc., as if there is something wrong with them for not acting more like the Five.

Basically, the Five either has to remain completely alone (to maintain integrity) or else has to actually engage back in order to at least be fair in regards to the investments being made in her. But no one is completely self-contained; we all interact with people or benefit from other people to some degree.

Anyway, the term "manipulation" can be quibbled over, I suppose; traditionally, the Five is selfish... a hoarder of time and resources... afraid to take risks unless the answer is already known... afraid to risk the intellectual reputation... and not realizing, by Enneagram conventions, that intellect is not meant to be hoarded and is not an end in itself, but is a gift and talent to be spent when interacting with others. It's what the Five can bring to the table as a gift, not as a means to win resources for itself while otherwise fending off intrusions into its personal space.


Arclight has highlighted some good points. You'll see if you look at Karen Horney's "withdrawn" type (4,5,9), how detachment (among other things) is a way of keeping the ball in your court. Integrity as Jennifer says, is one part of the equation. Withdrawn types tend not to want to be interfered with ultimately, in this lack of interference coincides with integrity at the end of the day.

I might pip in after I do a bit more thinking with how I think the withdrawn types "manipulate" (because it's more than just withholding information, it also has to do with power, choice and will... and additionally, the latter two points relate to 6 concerns especially too).

~~
I'm getting to know a 5 right now, and it does feel like my power is being taken from him, sometimes. I can see both our ways of protecting ourselves and enforcing our wills into the situation. I'm being steady with my support and feelings, yet, I have to have certainty about how he feels about me (i'm a six) so I ask him to give me feedback very sutbly, so I'm not crossing any of his boundaries. While he is inherently detached from any claims he makes about himself, and indeed sometimes from me. It is hard to get to know someone when they are largely ambivalent and block you out from reading them in any way. I block people out too, so finally I can appreciate the similar things I do to other people. It is frustrating, and I feel powerless in the situation. Where we end up in the relationship is in his hands. I do the work, and he is the one who says yes or no. The ball is in his court, yet I am the one summoning the effort in attempt to draw him out. I have to read his mind sometimes, because I know he is very hypersensitive to what others want from him, yet he has a difficulty saying no. It leaves me being very uncertain, when preferably i'd like communication to be more open, so I can ask questions, or be given directions, instead of guessing. I do not want to be guessing anything with him, but questions seem intrusive to him.
 
G

Ginkgo

Guest
Since manipulation is always voluntary, I think the OP is actually describing neutral affects enneagram types tend to have on the people around them.
 
F

figsfiggyfigs

Guest
That is insanely accurate.

Esp if you put the wing in perspective as well.

This is also true for my friend's types as well.
 

rav3n

.
Joined
Aug 6, 2010
Messages
11,655
Like Arc says, Five practices a passive manipulation (rather than a more conscious one), seeking to divert things into the intellectual and detached, although relationships are not detached by nature. Those who attempt to require more engagement are fended off, made to feel stupid or guilty or too emotional, etc., as if there is something wrong with them for not acting more like the Five.

Basically, the Five either has to remain completely alone (to maintain integrity) or else has to actually engage back in order to at least be fair in regards to the investments being made in her. But no one is completely self-contained; we all interact with people or benefit from other people to some degree.

Anyway, the term "manipulation" can be quibbled over, I suppose; traditionally, the Five is selfish... a hoarder of time and resources... afraid to take risks unless the answer is already known... afraid to risk the intellectual reputation... and not realizing, by Enneagram conventions, that intellect is not meant to be hoarded and is not an end in itself, but is a gift and talent to be spent when interacting with others. It's what the Five can bring to the table as a gift, not as a means to win resources for itself while otherwise fending off intrusions into its personal space.
As an 8w7 who displays some 5 tendencies, I agree with this except to include the caveat that there will be individuals and situations that aren't worth the fight or effort to engage with. The individual themselves will have to weigh the positives and negatives and decide what's/who's worth it or not.
 
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