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I don't buy the Enneagram Wings theory

highlander

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All the types mirror each other in some way.. That is why degrees of health are so important in Ennea typing. You can't be 2w5 because 2w3 or 2w1 already covers it. and your level of health will take you towards a different type.

Type 6 goes 8 counter-phobic and 9 in a state of health.

So maybe a type 2 needs to look at their state of health to see if there is a level that starts to look like type 5.. they would still have their wing as 3 or 1 but their health will be taking them somewhere else.

This site is useful in describing the stages of health

you are now dealing with 54 subtypes for one type.. pretty elaborate if you ask me. :D

Nine Personalities

I get that. The instinctual varient (SX,SP,SO) makes a lot of sense to me too. The important things about Enneagram seem to relate to level of health and how you:
- Slide in the direction of the arrows if stressed or pressured and incorporate the lesser qualities of the type in the connecting position
- Slide against the arrows when feeling secure or are growing and incorporate the higher qualities of the type in the connecting position.

Enneagram.gif



It's just the wings...
 

Arclight

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I get that. The instinctual varient (SX,SP,SO) makes a lot of sense to me too. The important things about Enneagram seem to relate to level of health and how you:
- Slide in the direction of the arrows if stressed or pressured and incorporate the lesser qualities of the type in the connecting position
- Slide against the arrows when feeling secure or are growing and incorporate the higher qualities of the type in the connecting position.

Enneagram.gif



It's just the wings...

Here is a description or definition

The enneagram is a model that necessarily simplifies the vast complexity of personality. But the model can be refined, polished, and tuned, until deeper and deeper levels of detail become visible.

One useful refinement is to subdivide each of the nine types into two sub-flavors reflecting the two adjacent types, which are called wing types. This is possible because a person's personality type is not a single number, but rather a highly precise combination of two adjacent types. Each one of us lives at a spot somewhere on the edge of the circle, and most of us are not exactly on top of one of the points, but rather somewhere between two adjacent points.

There is much difference between the two subflavors of each basic type. In particular, it is useful to notice how the differing stress and balance points of the wing affect the overall flavor of each type, making the highly integrated and highly stressed states distinctly different for the two wing-flavors.

 

highlander

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There is much difference between the two subflavors of each basic type. In particular, it is useful to notice how the differing stress and balance points of the wing affect the overall flavor of each type, making the highly integrated and highly stressed states distinctly different for the two wing-flavors.

Hmmmm....

Maybe it depends on how strong of a wing you have. Maybe some people have no wing.
 

Speed Gavroche

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The meaning of wing is more spiritual than of a mechanic reality. And it's the same for the concepts of integration and disintegration. We currently say that an enneatype integrate in one direction and disintegrate in another direction. 4, for example, disintegrate in 2 and integrate in 1. But it actually seem that we can move in both direction in both situations. I've read that the wing actually indicate in what direction we are the more prone to move under stress, wich is actually, the number we seen folllowing the direction indicated by the wing.

A 6w7, for example, tend more to move in 9 under stress: they are not certain of anything, ar opened to every type of ideas and need to considerate every point of view or angles of an issue. Don't know how to act. Turn in circles. Stuck with routines. Eventually passive-agressive and obssesive, prone to fantazy. They became also very meek and accomodant, often of a self-pres subtype, characteried by a personal warmth to disarm potential hostility. While 6w5 disintegrate more in 3 under stress, their attention is more focused on one point at the same time, and to become more knowledgable and efficient in order to secure themselves. They are more likely to stick on a point and to not deviate in order to cope with their anxiety. When more relaxed, 6w7 integrate more often in 3, tons of creative projects, see life large, be positive. While the 6w5 become more inquisitive more open to new ideas, more warm, more creative.

An 8w7 move more to 5 under stress. Become overly mental. Vindicative. Move from avid to stingy. Withdrawn from peoples to avoid responsability and guilty, romantise isolation, consider that it's a privilege to receive attention from him. Fearful and paranoid. Find a refuge in his ideas, inquisitivity and intelectual interest as an other way to confront with their fears. 8w9 move more to 2 under stress. Stress reanimate fear of loss and separation. Feel co-dependent, but don't want to appear weak. Blame peoples for betrayal, megalomanic, can cope with their fear of separation by seduction, sensuality or agressive sexuality. When more relaxed, 8w7 move more to 2, are generous and gregarious, larger than life and lover. While a 8w9 move more to 5, economise his energy, strong quiet and quiet force and self-confidence, more inquisitive. Contrary to popular belief, Darth Vader is not 8w9 but an 8w7 disintegrate in 5, and James Brown was a 8w9, not a 8w7.

9w8 move more to 6 under stress, self-forgetting of their need, they fit in, but are also prone to occasional outburst of anti-autoritharism. While 9w1 feel a need to do things perfectly and move more to 3. When relaxed, 9w8 move more to 3, using their wing 8 to become achiver and performer and impact the world. While 9w1 work more to apply their perfectionism to collective causes. 9w8 is "I have a lot of potential energy...a lot of potential assertive energy, just wait a little and don't piss me off" 9w1 is "I have a lot of potential energy...a lot of potential compliant energy, just leave me the time to do do things perfectly".

I could contiue, but the idea is that you can determine your wing by seeing toward wich direction you are the most prone to integrate or dinsintegrate. If you are a 4 and move more toward 2 under stress and integrate in 1, you are a 4w3, if it's the contrary, you are a 4w5.
 

Aleksei

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What 3 wing disintegrates towards 9?
 

highlander

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The meaning of wing is more spiritual than of a mechanic reality. And it's the same for the concepts of integration and disintegration. We currently say that an enneatype integrate in one direction and disintegrate in another direction.

I could contiue, but the idea is that you can determine your wing by seeing toward wich direction you are the most prone to integrate or dinsintegrate. If you are a 4 and move more toward 2 under stress and integrate in 1, you are a 4w3, if it's the contrary, you are a 4w5.

Wait. So, you're saying the direction of the arrows changes if the wing changes? That would mean you have to have a wing for this model to make sense. I thought I'd seen that some people do not have a wing.
 

Chloe

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i dont think i have a wing, but i disintegrate to 9 and integrate to 6 (though some negative stuff / disintegration from 6 i also pick up.) what wing would that make me ?

i dont relate to 2 or 4 at all....
 

nozflubber

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You're not alone... I don't buy into the Enneagram PERIOD because it has absolutely no explanatory value or useful insights into people. Others see it's relevance but when I read the Enneagram descriptions all I find myself saying is "so what? how does it help me understand THAT person?". Maybe I really ought to give it a fresh new look, but to me I find it about as useful as knowing a person's favorite color - it's not telling you a whole lot.
 

Aleksei

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i dont think i have a wing, but i disintegrate to 9 and integrate to 6 (though some negative stuff / disintegration from 6 i also pick up.) what wing would that make me ?

i dont relate to 2 or 4 at all....
Kinda weird for an Fi type to not relate to either of those... :huh:
 

Chloe

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i dont relate to (2) wanting for people to depend on me... or (4) wanting to be special and unique.

i relate to some traits like emotional, helps people.. that 2 and 4 have, but those are irrelevant to really relating to e-type imo, because i have them because i am NF, regardless of enneagram, and i dont relate to motivations behind those actions of 2/4.. for ex. helping people
 

Aleksei

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i dont relate to (2) wanting for people to depend on me... or (4) wanting to be special and unique.

i relate to some traits like emotional, helps people.. that 2 and 4 have, but those are irrelevant to really relating to e-type imo, because i have them because i am NF, regardless of enneagram
I think that wings are more about attaching the core drive of each type in a complementary way to your main type. If I'm not mistaken, 3w4s want to simply be the best, whereas 3w2s want to be admired by others.
 

highlander

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You're not alone... I don't buy into the Enneagram PERIOD because it has absolutely no explanatory value or useful insights into people. Others see it's relevance but when I read the Enneagram descriptions all I find myself saying is "so what? how does it help me understand THAT person?". Maybe I really ought to give it a fresh new look, but to me I find it about as useful as knowing a person's favorite color - it's not telling you a whole lot.

It's interesting. The reason I initially was interested in MBTI was because it was a system that would help me to understand other people. The reason I'm interested in Enneagram is to better understand myself. It seems more interesting/useful in a personal context and from a development perspective.
 

highlander

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The arrows do indeed seem to go in different directions in different pictures. I'm sure this is pretty damn basic for some of you.

myers_briggs_enneagram.jpg
Enneagram.gif
 

Speed Gavroche

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What 3 wing disintegrates towards 9?

Both. But when we say that 3 disintegrate in 9, that does'nt mean they become 9. The integration and disintegration concept don't mean that you adopt behavior of other types, it just explain the working of your type with symbolic arrows. When we say "the 3 disintegrate in 9", itis just for explain the 3's ability to forget their own need in favor of what it's considered "successful", their hability to repress their emotions and their inability to meet their actual personal need under stress. When they are really more entranced, they adopt some 9 behavior, turn in circles, don't know how to act etc.

The idea wick explain wings is that we can integrate and disintegrate toward both directions like it is explained here: fineenn9styls1.html (read the "fine distinctions" stuff). An healthy 5, for example, can experiment healthy connection to 8 and 7. The wing is what make you more prone to move in one direction than another.

So, to answer to your question, the 3w2 disintegrate more in 9 under stress, because they want more to please to peoples. Become more accomodating, can try to be seducive, under extreme stress, can even be wussbag. Are more prone than 3w4 to foreget their own need in favor to the needs of others.

3w4 disintegrate more in 6 under stress, they are less concerned with peoples than 3w2 and use more their mental abilities under stress. 3w4 become paranoiud about what could prevent him to achieve success, feel the need to engage on a track toward success and to not deviate, loyalty to enterprise, boss of family because of this. When counterphobic, can also become atracted with iconoclast point of view and new creative approach or anti authoritarist, because thay fear to be banal.

When relaxed, the 3w2 move more on 6, 2ness push them to form bonds and commitments with peoples, to form cooperative environments and are less competitive. They can also become more intelectual and critical, play the devil's advocate instead of consider their first impression about things, become mùore original and creative etc.

The 3w4 is more pushed to 9 when they relaxed, they chill out, are more opened to peoples and warm. They take more time to be interested with other peoples, consider their position, consider question at all the angles instead of just consider their first impression about things. Healthy connection to 9 bring introspection and creativity, wich are currrent issues with 3w4.

. If I'm not mistaken, 3w4s want to simply be the best, whereas 3w2s want to be admired by others

3w4 and 3w2 want both to be the best and to be admired by peoples. To be succesful and to be the best is the same thing for them and they have a hard time to see the difference. The seek success by seeking a fiel or a game where there's somebody to beat. Defeat of adversary and admiration of peoples are actual proof of they success, and it would be diffficult for them to identify a success by themselves without that. Their challenge is justly to meet goals who are more personal, and not just presented as succesful by their social envronment. 3w2 and 3w4 are differences of means, not of ends. 3w2 seek they can't be admired if they are not essential to peoples, 3w4 that thay can't be admired if they are banal.
 

Chloe

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^all that would me make me 3w2 if i really had to pick wing.
 

Aleksei

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...And it confirms 3w2 for me. Thanks Gav! :)
 

lostlove

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thing is that when you fight with E4 he starts to make drama, likes attention, and goes "poor me", its all about me.
when you fight with E5 he withdraws and wants you to leave him alone, doesnt want to share informations.

so how does 5w4 acts when fighting..? cant see that overlaping that easy.
You need a better imagination then. ;)

"Oh poor me, I'll throw a mild hissy fit and then lock myself away from the world as much as possible while I write bad, self-absorbed poetry about how defective and inhuman I am."
Or he could make a big drama then withdraw and retreat to his private little world to go "poor me"...weeping over his wounds with self-pity, self-hatred and hatred of the world.
 

Chloe

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Or he could make a big drama then withdraw and retreat to his private little world to go "poor me"...weeping over his wounds with self-pity, self-hatred and hatred of the world.

That all is 4! Poor me, self pity, and that kind of retreating is only 4s trait, not 5s.
 

Aleksei

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Or he could make a big drama then withdraw and retreat to his private little world to go "poor me"...weeping over his wounds with self-pity, self-hatred and hatred of the world.
That sounds like 4. 5w4 is more like becoming pissed off and throwing a "poor me" fit, then backing away from your emotions to prevent them from overwhelming you. Like -- contemplating suicide one moment, and then time travel paradoxes 5 minutes later.
 

Chloe

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That sounds like 4. 5w4 is more like becoming pissed off and throwing a "poor me" fit, then backing away from your emotions to prevent them from overwhelming you. Like -- contemplating suicide one moment, and then time travel paradoxes 5 minutes later.

i like this example better... :smile:

though usually one is so much stronger (4 in this case) than the other that wing looks irrelevant. at least i didnt see it in real person yet, to make both reactions relevant.
 
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