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so/sp interactions with other variants - ESPECIALLY SX

PeaceBaby

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This has been of interest to me lately and on my mind.

I am looking for some insight into what you think the major pulls / obstacles and misreads would be between the following variant types:

so/sp with sx/sp

so/sp with sx/so

so/sp with sp/sx

I won't do more than the three in this thread for ease of replying.

You see, I am so/sp and I feel the tug-of-war between working with the group and preserving my own "space" ... and frequently, when someone wants to get close to me fast I become very wary of their motivations. With sx last in my stacking order, I find I feel the desire for connection, but find myself thinking other people are being socially inappropriate when they move fast, and then I feel my defenses go up to protect myself from either being hurt or embarrassed.

In relationships I seldom share info about myself first unless I feel very safe because I don't think anyone is interested if they don't ask or take the time to get to me on at least a cursory level. And I don't want to come across as unduly self-absorbed. It's polite to get to know the other person first, so I generally try to follow that "rule".

I want depth, but I fear it, because I think someone will "take" something from me and then never maintain that friendship over time. This has been a pattern IRL; I make friends with relative ease, but I can feel some want my energy and when I am "figured out" (so to speak) they move on. Not everyone, but enough for me to notice a trend.

Example: I am a vocalist. People find that very interesting, and when I get to know someone they invariably want to see me perform etc. I feel like they get their high off of me, and then when they get what they wanted they move on. I wanted to be friends. I thought they liked me. But, they wanted to explore me and taste a bit and move on. But I wanted more! I find that ironic somehow, when the sx is supposed to be all about "depth".

Tell me your thoughts; help me understand this so I might improve my understanding of relationship needs and not be so judging of the people who "come and go".

Those kind of relationships have made me feel that when people get to know me, they simply don't like what they have found once they get into my "inner world". So they move on, and I am wondering why I am not "interesting" or liked anymore. That's probably just inappropriate personalization, but I am being candid here and revealing my insecurities.

Plus, what does the so/sx and so/sp relationship look like? One gets close and feels moments are right to get way closer - but the sp pulls back at the moment where things could proceed.

Share with me people - I want to understand more.
 

PeaceBaby

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Addendum: You all may find this strange, but it is only at this point in my life (40+) that I am deciding who I want to be friends with and pursuing those friendships. Rather than (mostly) the other way 'round.
 

teslashock

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I'm sx/sp and was in a relationship with an ENTJ so/sp for a very long time. One of our main issues was that I feared for how stable the relationship was, and he had no desire to directly or indirectly promise me and/or show me that he desired long-term security.

He said many times that if there came a time that he and I needed to break up in order for him to accomplish his goals, then he would end it. His own welfare was more important to him than the relationship, while I saw my welfare embedded within the relationship; the two were intertwined.

I find that as an sx/sp, I am at a perpetual conflict as to whether I should seek to ensure long-term stability, making sacrifices for this security, or whether I should put that security in jeopardy to seek out my goals. I feel chained when I'm in a stable relationship, and I feel too chaotically alone when I'm single.

So/sp people do not seem to understand this overwhelming need for secure, stable relationships, and I found that my ex put more energy in developing his social network than he did in developing intimacy with me. He always said that if he could choose to hang out with just me or hang out with a large group of people that included me, he'd choose the latter, and this always really hurt me on some level.
 

PeaceBaby

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That sounds harsh tesla ... I would feel hurt too.

I put my relationship with my husband super-high in my priorities; in that scenario you outline I would choose him first. The group second. After all I have been married now for over 20 years, so that shows my level of commitment I think. (Edit: maybe as an introvert, too, that makes a bit of difference in my situation.)

I personally do want stable relationships, but to me people seem to partake and leave. Maybe I attract this type of interaction. Maybe I never share how much I want the friendship to last, or that I want more depth (or at least the same depth.)

tesla, do you find as sx/sp you have a lot of long term friendships? Do you maintain them frequently or infrequently? Or do you have a few great friends that the social need to occasionally interact doesn't interfere with your connection ... that you could spend a year apart then get-together and it be "just like old times"?
 

teslashock

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tesla, do you find as sx/sp you have a lot of long term friendships? Do you maintain them frequently or infrequently? Or do you have a few great friends that the social need to occasionally interact doesn't interfere with your connection ... that you could spend a year apart then get-together and it be "just like old times"?

I have a good number of long-term friendships with people that I've known since childhood. I still see and communicate with a lot of these friends on a regular basis (my current roommates are both best friends from middle/high school). Most of my current friends are actually people that I've known since childhood, even though I am a senior in college, and many have moved to different cities/states since high school.

As far as keeping in touch with good friends that are geographically or otherwise distant, I have a hard time with this. It's not a very high priority for me to take the initiative and maintain contact with people I don't see. I don't really care what is going on in a friend's day-to-day life if I'm not seeing them; I care about larger issues in their life, but not about keeping tabs on more trivial things. I'll listen when they call, but I'll rarely call them to just "check-in." If they come to town, however, I like to meet up again if it's been a while. With these more distant friends, I could get back together with them after months/years apart and it would certainly be just like old times.

I have a good bit of trouble making new friends and keeping them as friends. Aside from the ~10 very very good friends that I have, I will cycle through people every 6-12 months. This is not because I actively want to cut newer friends out of my life. Rather, I just have a hard time maintaining active friendships with more than ~10 people at a time. I become inadvertently negligent because I need my alone time, and I don't often take the initiative to hang out, so less secure, gluey friendships often erode away (but there's no hostility...it's just kinda, meh *shrug*).
 

Totenkindly

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He said many times that if there came a time that he and I needed to break up in order for him to accomplish his goals, then he would end it.

Arrrg. At that point, you might as well have cut loose; if you are not a priority, you won't get his heart day to day, and he could end it any day regardless of your investment. Not a way to live at all.

I feel chained when I'm in a stable relationship, and I feel too chaotically alone when I'm single.

^^^ Resonation.

And I usually felt broken, like something was wrong with me, because I found myself struggling with some unhappiness in either situation.

So/sp people do not seem to understand this overwhelming need for secure, stable relationships, and I found that my ex put more energy in developing his social network than he did in developing intimacy with me. He always said that if he could choose to hang out with just me or hang out with a large group of people that included me, he'd choose the latter, and this always really hurt me on some level.

Totally. I know I wouldn't feel important to him. I was just "yet another person." He might as well be having sex with anyone he likes as well, since I would have no more importance to him than another woman.

I came to the weird realization this week that my "ex" is a 2w1 sp (or sp/so). I don't even know why I never considered it possible for an ISFJ 2w1 to be an sp, I've been thinking about my own variant for a long time. And I guess it's because my ex is socially kind, appropriate, and feels warm (even if detached a bit), it's not the traditional style of sp that I know; it's just that there's a very strong "homebody" sense, and even with their few friends, they never really get together and they don't leave the house even when the choice is there.

No wonder I was feeling lost and alone for much of the marriage. Everything really was role-based. We were supposed to be together physically all the time but purely on a working/proximity level, and getting really deep feelings and visions for the future and the "deep internal" stuff was like pulling teeth --- it was always up to me to go deep first and then sometimes be looked at like I had two heads or were prying into a place that not only wasn't appealing but covered over with cobwebs.

My spouse was fine with that. I realize now it was meeting my spouse's needs, so why change? It was just my needs it really wasn't meeting.

* * * * *

What I am about to share (the pattern I see in my building of relationships) might come from an SX perspective (I think) but I cannot claim to speak for all SX people or anything nearly so broad; I don't know; this is just what I've seen myself do and what I've experienced.

I seem to be typically restless and feel adrift when I don't happen to be in active communion with someone. It can be any one of my friends, but at times when there is no communication with anyone, I find myself getting antsy and feel myself drifting off into some sort of shadow-world where my only orientation is my own sense; I'm not getting anything to connect me to the physical, social, tangible world. So it's like I have myself, my world is not completely empty, but i have no way to orient myself in that world and also feel like I'm bleeding loneliness.

When I meet someone I don't know and who responds to me on a personal level, it's like shots of caffeine and cocaine shot straight to the brain. Everything revs up immediately into overdrive and I'm completely immersed in the conversation. And because they are a mystery to me in many ways, that engages my intuition and curiosity -- I want to understand them and see how they fit together and "know" who they are. (I'm thinking that INTPs will recognize this as a similar feeling to finding an area of study or a pasttime that is particularly fascinating and how the INTP gets a "lock" on it and is totally immersed...)

One issue at this point is the nature of the other person. If they start putting up boundaries, and after I put myself out there, they don't reciprocate to that level for a few exchanges, things rev down inside of me. it's like I become aware of and respect that they won't go further and there is nothing else to be shared on that deep level... so I let it go. But from the surface, it could look like I just got bored with them.

Another issue is energy. Such focus and intensity burns through energy reserves like mad. Since I do not pace myself but tend to leap right into the connection, soon enough my energy reserves dissipate and I can't maintain that pace. Also, other life needs become more prioritized and I cannot devote the same amount of time that I did in the early parts of the discussion to the same person, if we are shifting more into a maintenance mode style of relationship. I'm very priority-driven -- if I am still trying to puzzle through their mystery, I can become obsessed, or if they have a particular issue, I will drop what I'm doing to intensely connect with them and help them through it.... but if it's just routine friendship stuff, it falls into a prioritized list of things to get done and it might not be near the type... there are always fires to fight somehow.

(I became aware of my doing this when I've had people who needed support and/or a friend would latch onto me in the early stages, and then I'd burn out, and the daily 2-3x communications would dwindle to once every few days to even a week, and most of them had trouble accepting that it wasn't that I no longer liked them but just that I had other things to do (including other relationships to maintain).)

I am thinking that to the other person it can look like I suddenly lose interest and just wander off. I wouldn't say that is the case, it's just that whatever needs that used to be met within the relationship no longer are being met. It also doesn't sound much different with the other variants, they are just less noticeable in some ways; all variants are need-based, it is the style of exchange that fills a needs, and it is very possible for an so or sp to have their needs filled in the relationship while maintaining distance (and in fact, too much closeness might get in the way, such as for straight sp types), while for the sx, the need for connection and closeness is not being met at all. And when people's needs are not being met, they go away.

I think now that SX is just the most obvious, but people will complain about SOs doing their networking style of connection or dropping relationships that are no longer productive for them in pursuit of their goals, or complain about how SPs do not extend outside of themselves and pull back.

In any case, after this opening phase of very intense, very constant, very supercharged level of conversation, the burn eventually dissipates a bit and things drop into maintenance mode. It could even be silence for awhile. Partly because there doesn't seem to be a lot else to say on the deep level. But the feelings at least for me haven't changed. I still feel the same way toward the person, I'm just not sure where things go next. If there is ample room and no external pressures to suck up available energy, a sort of "maintenance style" relationship can evolve, where you maintain periodic and more surface-level contact... until some event or thought triggers another wave of intense conversation, something that could occur a week later or a month or even a year.

But it's not like I forget the person. Sometimes details might drift away after enough time passes (so I'll forget specific thing), but the sense and awareness of the person themselves sits inside of me. I don't forget THEM and don't stop thinking about THEM. I treasure that experience and who they are and hold it inside of me, and it lies waiting for any future opportunity of deep connection with them.

I think it's just hard for totally SX people to operate in the other spheres for prolonged periods of time. the focus is the intense exploration of another person and revelation of self to them -- it creates a real charge that enables and motivates that sort of sharing -- and other modes of relationship do not generate the same amount of interest and energy that can be poured into the exchange. From the outside, I think this can make an SX look flighty, or like a bird darting from flower to flower, drinking nectar out of each until empty and then moving on. I think SX can become a consuming style individual if not careful, or if they are flakes, but in actuality there's a desire for more and more depth and a real vibrant connection, and the connection can actually continue to exist on the SX person's end even if there's nothing to currently drive an active exchange on the surface.


... that's my first rough draft, I reserve the right to change my answer whenever I want. :D
 

runvardh

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Jennifer... That's a pretty good description for where I tend to be. When someone comes around to start engaging me, though, I've learned to hold back on first contact. It aches like little else, but there are times when I'm sick of getting looked at funny from first interaction. Most who start, stop soon later, so it's not like they're worth the investment anyway. Opening up slowly is still a tough one for me though, and I'm still working on that. I don't like it, but I'm tired of the vibe with no pay off - I'd almost prefer to float alone and contextless.
 

PeaceBaby

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^ What an illuminating reply. Thanks for stopping by. No pizza, beer or party platter for you!
 

Totenkindly

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Jennifer... That's a pretty good description for where I tend to be. When someone comes around to start engaging me, though, I've learned to hold back on first contact. It aches like little else, but there are times when I'm sick of getting looked at funny from first interaction. Most who start, stop soon later, so it's not like they're worth the investment anyway. Opening up slowly is still a tough one for me though, and I'm still working on that. I don't like it, but I'm tired of the vibe with no pay off - I'd almost prefer to float alone and contextless.

:( :hug:

so/sp - gold diggers and ass kissers.

Hooked-on phonics can be pretty effective if you don't know how to read the OP.
 

INTPness

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I didn't read Jennifer's long post yet, simply because I wanted to reply to the OP while my thoughts were fresh. I'll go back and read her reply after I post this because I know I'll probably identify with it in some way, shape, or form (always seems to be the case).

Anyhow, what I wanted to say was that as an "sx" myself, I tend to get really deep really fast. I learn a lot about the person very quickly (so long as they are allowing it and there is a connection). It's like I'm a coal miner with a hard-hat and a flashlight, digging as deep as I can looking for "the good stuff". But, if there's no real connection, it just kind of fizzles out. This can happen for a number of reasons:

(a) The other person isn't open, so it's like I'm hitting a brick wall and I can't go any deeper. At this point it begins to feel like one of those "superficial", surface-only, "how's the weather" relationships. There's nothing good to talk about.

(b) Our interests don't really mesh. I met an ISFJ once and we began hanging out all the time. Lots. But, after about 2 months, I just realized that we had almost zero in common. What she wanted to talk about and what I wanted to talk about were almost always 2 different things. N/S played a role in this as well, but it was like digging and digging, but never finding any coal. Doesn't mean she wasn't interesting or unique, it's just that we failed to connect, time and time again.

(c) After getting to know them, it becomes obvious that I won't be able to give them what they want. I have a fairly new friend (a guy) who I started hanging out with. Cool guy. I enjoy his company, he's an NT like me, and so we get along quite well. I can do a lot of "digging deep" because he is a wealth of information. Full of knowledge. But, I'm beginning to see that he wants me to "fill a role" in his schedule, in his agenda. He wants me to be "on board" with everything he is doing. And he gets frustrated when I'm not. And that puts a certain strain on me. So, I don't stop being his friend. I just back up a bit; I slowly retreat and take the friendship back down a notch, if you will. Being an "sx", I want my "deep friendships" to be a "10" on a scale of 1 to 10. So, he and I got to the point to where I'd consider it maybe a 6 (it was just starting to get interesting - possible future business partner, a lot of things we could do together to help each other out in various areas of life, etc, not to mention fun to hang out with). But, now it's like I've taken it back to a 4 or 5. Because the closer I got, the deeper I dug, the more he demanded out of me that I wasn't comfortable fulfilling. If I was OK fulfilling the demands of the friendship, I'd continue to move forward. But, if I'm not, I have to scale it back to a level that is comfortable for me.

Sometimes you dig deep and you find some gems in there, but then sometimes you foresee that it can't quite continue to work as well as you had hoped. You can see potential problems, you can see certain reasons the two of you will butt heads, etc. So, you can't go any deeper. You have to kind of stop the coal-mining operation right there and determine whether you'd like to be this person's friend at a "5 out of 10 deepness level", or if it's better to "journey on". If I begin to "journey on", and they show initiative and make it known that they'd like to remain friends and they see value in our friendship, then that can reel me back in a bit and I'll be a loyal friend. We're a strange breed, I know.
 

Seymour

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I relate to a lot of Jennifer's post. In fact, at certain points I've felt afraid that I'm addicted to the initial rush of infatuation (not necessarily sexual). For example, there's nothing quite like the early stages of making a good friend. I've learned to hold back more and pace myself, but it is a highly rewarding experience for me.

I also find myself enjoying crisis situations at times, since that's when the walls between other people come down. The intensity and chance to see whole new sides to people can make dealing with a crisis fulfilling on a sx level. (By the way, by crisis I don't mean drama but instead some unusual situation that disrupts the normal day to dat and lets you relate to people differently.)

It did take me a while to learn that not everyone is looking for the same one-on-one intensity I am, and that such an intensity isn't always healthy.

My partner is pretty clearly a 5 sp, which makes him more withdraw than I am. At times it's made for frustration, since he doesnt have the same need for intense relating, and although he wants connection on some level, he'll rarely move to initiate it.

(Hope this whole post isn't too much off topic.)
 

INTPness

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Yeah, Jennifer's post resonates quite a bit.

Basically as an INTP sx, I just want to talk about really interesting stuff *all the time*. I need space, I need alone time to recharge my batteries, and yes, there are other things that need to be tended to. But, theoretically, if I just had 1 friend that I could talk to about "life" all the time, that would be really cool. No drama and all that other stuff, but just someone to bounce ideas off of and have some debates with, laugh about crazy stuff, etc. That's what gets me going. That's where the good stuff is at for the sx and, frankly, not a lot of people are into that sort of thing. So, when we find it, or when it begins to happen/unfold, it's an amazing thing.

When someone lets you dig really deep and get close it's kind of like this :D:
YouTube - Christian The Lion - i will always love you....
 

Salomé

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But, theoretically, if I just had 1 friend that I could talk to about "life" all the time, that would be really cool. No drama and all that other stuff, but just someone to bounce ideas off of and have some debates with, laugh about crazy stuff, etc. That's what gets me going. That's where the good stuff is at for the sx and, frankly, not a lot of people are into that sort of thing. So, when we find it, or when it begins to happen/unfold, it's an amazing thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDZaWgf_bk0&NR=1
Mindmates...
Do you think it has to be another sx?

Jennifer said:
When I meet someone I don't know and who responds to me on a personal level, it's like shots of caffeine and cocaine shot straight to the brain. Everything revs up immediately into overdrive and I'm completely immersed in the conversation. And because they are a mystery to me in many ways, that engages my intuition and curiosity -- I want to understand them and see how they fit together and "know" who they are. (I'm thinking that INTPs will recognize this as a similar feeling to finding an area of study or a pasttime that is particularly fascinating and how the INTP gets a "lock" on it and is totally immersed...)
I know that buzzy, hyper, high. But does this happen often for you? I could count the number of times on one hand... I really wish I could get that with more people, but most are just hard work and zero chemistry.
 

themarlins

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Well the major misread is that soc/sp move to sx when starting a relationship

sx/sp moves to soc when starting a relationship


only temporarily.


So they can look like each other for awhile, and then end up disappointed when the true self comes out.
 

INTPness

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That doesn't mean that two grown adults (1 "sx" with 1 "non-sx") could not make a relationship work. But, to achieve "mindmate" status, I think they would both need to have that insatiable desire to "go deep".
 

Lady_X

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hmm...i'd guess my ex was a so/sp...i'm sx/so and we related well socially but for me it was lacking in depth and intensity....really interesting looking at it this way.
 

Totenkindly

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I know that buzzy, hyper, high. But does this happen often for you? I could count the number of times on one hand... I really wish I could get that with more people, but most are just hard work and zero chemistry.

Sigh. Well... it happens for me all the time.

Romance wasn't really a part of what I was describing, although it could be I guess. Just someone reaching out in a deeply personal way and letting me see them, and vice versa.

Sometimes I guess it scares me because I can't tell whether it's a good thing or a bad thing. Is it a gift/positive way of seeing? Or is it that I am just an addict to that sort of personal attention and it's some sort of weakness? I don't like being in thrall to feelings.

I honestly don't know how to interpret what I feel.
I just know how it feels, for me.

I guess in my last relationship, I did feel like I had a found a "soulmate." But that same sort of intensity I'm describing above... well, it wasn't as intense. It was more calm, and I just felt like I was with someone who could read me and me him without effort. Maybe the intensity at the beginning is because the exchange is laced with anticipation and mystery? But after awhile, that part inevitably gets quenched and the relationship rides on knowing each other and being together.
 

tinker683

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Just to add my 2 copper pieces as someone new to Enneagrams, Jennifer's post also resonates with me. People are deeply interesting and I like getting to know someone new. If they're interesting, then I want to really start to dig deeper but if they're not, it's like I feel quietly disappointed and then move on to the next person.

Good post Jenn :)
 
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