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so/sp interactions with other variants - ESPECIALLY SX

INTPness

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To PeaceBaby:

Some points regarding your response:

-The fact that you say there is so much to digest in this thread speaks to the intensity of the sx's in this thread. We have a lot to say and when given the opportunity, we usually express things openly and in-depth.

-You mentioned that we like to delve into other people's "stuff" - as if it's a one way street. I like the intensity to be mutual. Some sx's may not, but I like when someone asks me the same kind of questions. In fact, if it was just me asking and talking, it would get old. It's not a 1-way street - us getting all we can from you and then leaving. We want it reciprocated. Then there's the feeling that we're both enjoying it to the same degree.

-You talked about the potential overlap between the sx desire for intensity and closeness with basic human intimacy needs. I agree with this, but I would venture to say that the sx desire is MUCH more intense than the average person - sometimes even to the point to where we avoid the small talk altogether. We don't want anything to do with it at times. Jennifer seems to be past that point in her maturation (she welcomes the small talk), and I'm "working on it". I used to attend a social group where we talked about the really good stuff - that was the focus of the group. But, after the "formal" part of the group was over, the conversation became more about "surface stuff" - and then I just wanted to leave. I ONLY wanted the good stuff. I wanted nothing to do with the rest of it. There can be a sort of fixation on only wanting the deep conversations. I've learned to consciously say to myself, "Wait a minute! Stay here and talk to these people. Be social! It's good for you, it's valuable to your social skills and to your network - you can't just be a hermit who comes out to play when it's "deep stuff". Even if you don't have a lot of fun, stick it out for an hour and talk to these people." Sometimes I end up enjoying it a little bit, other times not so much. The sx's natural inclination, however, is that if we are a magnet, the deep stuff is metal. We crave it.

-In regards to this:
Social types adapt themselves to serve the needs of the social situation they find themselves in. Thus, Social types are highly aware of other people, whether they are in intimate situations or in groups. They are also aware of how their actions and attitudes are affecting those around them. Moreover, Sexual types seek intimacy, Social types seek personal connection: they want to stay in long-term contact with people and to be involved in their world. Social types are the most concerned with doing things that will have some impact on their community, or even broader domains. They tend to be warmer, more open, engaging, and socially responsible than the other two types.

To a large degree, this is where the difference lays between "so" and "sx". I relate *a little bit* to the description (my inferior Fe wants to keep things "smooth" in my own social circle), but as an overall description, it doesn't fit with me. I don't know if all sx's are this way, but I know INTP's tend to be iconoclasts. We usually go "against the grain". I know an INTP who people say about him "if you invite him to an event, he won't show up. If you don't invite him, he sometimes will show up." I, for one, do not like to be put into a "box". If someone puts expectations on me that I think are not warranted (or that I'm not ready for), then I might subconciously break out of that mold and do something else. I can be warm, open, and engaging, but that usually happens when I'm 1-on-1 with someone (an "sx" type situation). In a large group or party, I'm more detached and obervant. In big groups, I'm more "sp". 1-on-1, I'm "sx". But, for the most part, you won't see me fit the above "so" description.

-Lastly, you say that the "intensity" is part of the honeymoon phase and it can't last forever. This is partly true. With 2 sx's, there is a desire to continue to grow and discover things in a deep way. But, you are right that once you tap into what they are all about, there becomes less and less to talk about. And that, I'm afraid, is the reason why a lot of sx's are single. Not all of them are - I don't want to make huge generalizations here - but, I think a big chunk of sx's are single. I've really struggled with "so" friends and girlfriends. The description I quoted above - I couldn't satisfy that need for them to have me (the person they cared about) be a big part of their social circle. I didn't want to hang out with their social circle. I'm not a social butterfly like that. I'd rather do something together - just the 2 of us. But, I do need my alone time, so I always encourage them to go be with their friends as much as possible (I NEVER hold them back, I push them out so that they can "stay happy" doing what they enjoy most), and they know that I'll be there for them at the end of the day. Don't read this to mean that I'm not interested in what they do or that I'm not fully committed. I most certainly am - I would even say that I'm committed and interested in a "very intense way". Perhaps more than most people would be. I just don't always want to be a part of that social circle. I'm friendly, I'm cordial, and I want to please, but I can't keep up some facade and pretend that I want to be at every event that you and your friends take part in. It's just not me. And that's where we had problems - that was hard for them to accept. They thought that if I truly loved them that I would go with them to all these events. To me, they were trying to change who I am. Why do I have to "prove" my love by being someone I'm not? Why can't you go to YOUR social events and still know that I love you just the same? Needless to say, it's a difficult situation!
 

ChocolateMoose123

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I wonder what keeps me around, though... I'll get the high, I'll need recovery time, but I also want to come back for more, and it's not just sex when it comes to this reaction. I find when it feels good I want it more and often associate that person with the good feeling than the action that took place. This may be a result of different numbers though...

I've experienced this too. Only happens with other sx/sp's IME. Never works though. Or the cooling off periods each needs are not in synch with each other causing mistrust to take over? *shrug*
 

runvardh

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I've experienced this too. Only happens with other sx/sp's IME. Never works though. The cooling off period allows a lot of doubt to seep in.

I wonder if that's why they're always disappearing on me after a month or two...
 

Totenkindly

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Lastly, you say that the "intensity" is part of the honeymoon phase and it can't last forever. This is partly true. With 2 sx's, there is a desire to continue to grow and discover things in a deep way. But, you are right that once you tap into what they are all about, there becomes less and less to talk about. And that, I'm afraid, is the reason why a lot of sx's are single. Not all of them are - I don't want to make huge generalizations here - but, I think a big chunk of sx's are single.

I think relationships go through phases and maybe people are good at one part of the relationship and not the others... but have to learn how in order to endure. We just have to be more well-rounded in approach to maintain something like that.

I learned a great deal from being married to an ISFJ who wasn't SX. I didn't really want to learn.... but I did want the marriage to work, so I tried to learn.
 

PeaceBaby

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Thanks to all who have contributed thus far; I welcome more input.

Thank you INTPness for these responses; my thoughts below:

-The fact that you say there is so much to digest in this thread speaks to the intensity of the sx's in this thread. We have a lot to say and when given the opportunity, we usually express things openly and in-depth.

I appreciate that; I would say I can discuss things in depth but I am not always open about me personally.

-You mentioned that we like to delve into other people's "stuff" - as if it's a one way street. I like the intensity to be mutual.

Thanks for the clarification; I do sense that need for reciprocation. Sometimes the way people express this though comes across quite one-sided: "I want that, I want this" ... when I (as an so-dom) sense how much you want it, it almost becomes an immediate turn-off to me. It feels like I am an object of desire, rather than being desired.

When two sx's really connect, it must be like instant fireworks though!

- Jennifer seems to be past that point in her maturation (she welcomes the small talk), and I'm "working on it".

I have never been a fan of small-talk; it has always seemed vacuous to me. But, I do understand the purpose, I can engage in it, and it is more like a tool I can use to get to know people more deeply.

I'm not a social butterfly like that. I'd rather do something together - just the 2 of us. But, I do need my alone time, so I always encourage them to go be with their friends as much as possible (I NEVER hold them back, I push them out so that they can "stay happy" doing what they enjoy most).

This is where it gets interesting too, to me - I am an introverted so-dom. I am no social butterfly - I don't have huge needs in this area, but I feel like I have very well-developed social skills. I suppose this is an aspect I feel misunderstood within. I network with people to find and create connections. I don't have a wide circle or place the importance of the group above my inner circle. I do know a lot of people; could interact in most any group as needed - but people are an energy-out equation, so I always need that recharge and people don't give me that energy-buzz like an extroverted so-dom might receive.

-----

This is all very illuminative and I am still processing. And again, allow me to reiterate I am being a bit unvarnished for the sake of cultivating more response. If my phrasing is or has been offensive in any way I apologize for that. Understanding is my only intent here.
 

Salomé

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Is sx just about the hit, the high? That's the part I don't want to give you because I feel like I'll give over and then you'll be gone. Very similar to a sexual one-night stand metaphor. I don't like the sense of being "used" and I feel like if you liked me enough to have sex with me and be intimate with me what is it that makes you leave me?
I resent being compared to someone out looking for a one-night-stand or a drug-hit. You realize that you are accusing SXs of the same shallowness that you rankled against on behalf of SOs?

I think fundamentally, the difference between instinctual variants is about comfort levels. Some people are clearly very protective of their inner worlds, others are happy, anxious even, to share them.

Some people are comfortable sharing their body with a stranger. I'm really not, and I can't begin to understand that way of being - though I wouldn't judge someone for it. But I can quite happily share deeply personal things or ideas with a stranger, if I get the feeling that we are attuned. Sometimes more easily than with a long-term acquaintance, because there is no relational "clutter" in the way. The connection is pure and about the moment. I don't feel I've given anything away in the process. I've enlarged it - by sending it out into the world. It has become more real in the sharing. But why does this mean we have a "relationship"? We don't. We shared a moment. Maybe there will be other moments, maybe not. There is no exploitation involved and no expectations. There is give and take. To me, laying expectations of permanence on that person is ridiculous and needy.
I think if everyone was able to connect in this way the world would be a better, richer and much less lonely place - but part of the reason people don't is because of these absurd expectations about what is "appropriate" at each stage of a relationship. Fuck that. Smash through the barriers. Find your own comfort level.

One needs to respect that many people will just never, never go there with you.

Why does an sx-dom think anyone should? What have you done to "earn" that level of intimacy?
I don't know where you are reading this sense of entitlement from. I certainly don't want anyone to do anything they're not happy to do. Like I said, that's why I gave up trying in the first place and just accepted that I was an oddity. I constantly make concessions for how boring other people are, but very few make concessions for me. That's the usual SX experience. Most people seem to get their need for connection met by fairly mundane means. Our needs are seldom met at all.

INTP's tend to be iconoclasts. We usually go "against the grain". I know an INTP who people say about him "if you invite him to an event, he won't show up. If you don't invite him, he sometimes will show up." I, for one, do not like to be put into a "box". If someone puts expectations on me that I think are not warranted (or that I'm not ready for), then I might subconciously break out of that mold and do something else. I can be warm, open, and engaging, but that usually happens when I'm 1-on-1 with someone (an "sx" type situation). In a large group or party, I'm more detached and obervant. In big groups, I'm more "sp". 1-on-1, I'm "sx". But, for the most part, you won't see me fit the above "so" description.

-Lastly, you say that the "intensity" is part of the honeymoon phase and it can't last forever. This is partly true. With 2 sx's, there is a desire to continue to grow and discover things in a deep way. But, you are right that once you tap into what they are all about, there becomes less and less to talk about. And that, I'm afraid, is the reason why a lot of sx's are single. Not all of them are - I don't want to make huge generalizations here - but, I think a big chunk of sx's are single. I've really struggled with "so" friends and girlfriends. The description I quoted above - I couldn't satisfy that need for them to have me (the person they cared about) be a big part of their social circle. I didn't want to hang out with their social circle. I'm not a social butterfly like that. I'd rather do something together - just the 2 of us. But, I do need my alone time, so I always encourage them to go be with their friends as much as possible (I NEVER hold them back, I push them out so that they can "stay happy" doing what they enjoy most), and they know that I'll be there for them at the end of the day. Don't read this to mean that I'm not interested in what they do or that I'm not fully committed. I most certainly am - I would even say that I'm committed and interested in a "very intense way". Perhaps more than most people would be. I just don't always want to be a part of that social circle. I'm friendly, I'm cordial, and I want to please, but I can't keep up some facade and pretend that I want to be at every event that you and your friends take part in. It's just not me. And that's where we had problems - that was hard for them to accept. They thought that if I truly loved them that I would go with them to all these events. To me, they were trying to change who I am. Why do I have to "prove" my love by being someone I'm not? Why can't you go to YOUR social events and still know that I love you just the same? Needless to say, it's a difficult situation!
Yes to all of this.
It sucks that we accept and support the needs of others that are alien to us, yet they continue to assess our needs and mode of expression as in some way deficient.

/intp whining

ETA. I'll give you an example of an so-sx relationship and you tell me who is exploiting whom. I have a neighbour I've tentatively typed as ESFJ, almost certainly an so/sp type 2. She's a pleasant person, a teacher, not unintelligent, but she bores the pants off me. Whenever I'm out she'll trap me and go on for an hour about stuff that quite clearly doesn't concern me. Gossip about the neighbours, stuff about her church. It's actually physically painful for me to listen to it - but I do. I'd much rather talk to her husband - he's an introvert, does the same type of work as I do and he's into gardening and DIY like me so we actually have some common ground. But I don't, unless he initiates it, because I know how possessive that type of woman can be about her man and I don't need the aggravation.
So far, so crap. This last week she's been on holiday and asked me to look after her house/cat. I'm happy to help people where I can, and I'm even happier to be able to go into the front garden and not have her pester me, so I agree to do so. No biggie. She bought me a bottle of wine for my troubles. I'd quite like to leave it at that. But now she has insisted that I go over this afternoon to hear about her holiday. I DON'T FUCKING CARE ABOUT YOUR HOLIDAY. I've turned down her invitations several times in the past so I don't feel I can this time. I'm going to hate it. I'm going to be bored and counting the minutes till enough time has past so that I can leave without hurting feelings. I'm going to be opening myself up to all sorts of other invitations I don't want. The worst thing is - she actually thinks she's doing me a favour. She feels sorry for me living on my own. She projects her own loneliness and emptiness onto me. She wants to get me involved in the "community". She doesn't see "me" at all. She's incapable of it so I won't even try to make a connection. The worst thing about this type is their complete inability to see anything from anyone else's perspective. I get nothing out of this arrangement 'cept a cheap bottle of Shiraz that I probably won't drink.
This is why I hate people.
 

Totenkindly

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I'm not really sure why there is a comparison to a one-night stand.

I don't sleep around, I don't cross boundaries, I don't expect or demand things people haven't offered to give, and I don't make false promises. Connecting with someone is connecting with someone, I'm not marrying them. That's something else entirely, some other sort of explicit negotiation.

If people can't deal or don't want to go there because they've got a different comfort level, then fine.
 

PeaceBaby

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I resent being compared to someone out looking for a one-night-stand or a drug-hit. You realize that you are accusing SXs of the same shallowness that you rankled against on behalf of SOs?
I'm not really sure why there is a comparison to a one-night stand.

I am just using examples to the extreme to see where the edges are.

As I said above: "And again, allow me to reiterate I am being a bit unvarnished for the sake of cultivating more response. If my phrasing is or has been offensive in any way I apologize for that. Understanding is my only intent here."

But, why is there this sense that sx is the "deepest"? I see this very urgent and compelling need to experience deep intimacy with other people, but why is that somehow equated with depth of character?

I am not some vacuous valley-girl just interested in like, you know, how popular I am this week. I don't think anyone I know would say I am shallow or a social butterfly. Yet that's how much of the SO stuff reads. I suppose that's the part I feel resistance to.

I think fundamentally, the difference between instinctual variants is about comfort levels. Some people are clearly very protective of their inner worlds, others are happy, anxious even, to share them.

I think that's well-expressed.

I constantly make concessions for how boring other people are, but very few make concessions for me. That's the usual SX experience. Most people seem to get their need for connection met by fairly mundane means. Our needs are seldom met at all.

I'm not sure how to respond to this. I find many people pretty shallow and boring most of the time too ... but I don't expect them to make concessions for me, and I especially understand it at this point in my life. They can't give me what they don't have.

It sucks that we accept and support the needs of others that are alien to us, yet they continue to assess our needs and mode of expression as in some way deficient.

Deficient ... I don't think I would use that word, but I am still sorting this through in my own mind so I am not confident of a replacement yet.

ETA. I'll give you an example of an so-sx relationship and you tell me who is exploiting whom. I have a neighbour I've tentatively typed as ESFJ, almost certainly an so/sp type 2. ... This last week she's been on holiday and asked me to look after her house/cat. I'm happy to help people where I can, and I'm even happier to be able to go into the front garden and not have her pester me, so I agree to do so. No biggie. She bought me a bottle of wine for my troubles. I'd quite like to leave it at that. But now she has insisted that I go over this afternoon to hear about her holiday. I DON'T FUCKING CARE ABOUT YOUR HOLIDAY. I've turned down her invitations several times in the past so I don't feel I can this time. I'm going to hate it. I'm going to be bored and counting the minutes till enough time has past so that I can leave without hurting feelings. I'm going to be opening myself up to all sorts of other invitations I don't want. The worst thing is - she actually thinks she's doing me a favour. She feels sorry for me living on my own. She projects her own loneliness and emptiness onto me. She wants to get me involved in the "community". She doesn't see "me" at all. She's incapable of it so I won't even try to make a connection.

I would find this scenario equally painful and I am an SO-dom ... the primary difference between us is that I "understand" (for lack of a better word) why she expresses in this way and I also "understand" that little else will come of our interactions.

Or, maybe for just half an hour, get out of your own head, don't count the minutes, and just get into the story? Maybe it will be more interesting than you think. I can dread interacting in this way too, so when necessary I just give over to it, accept it, and sometimes it is pretty refreshing to stop contemplating how much agony I am in sitting there. I guess I just accept it? But I would devise a bunch of strategies to minimize our future interactions while still remaining on "good" terms.

And - this does seem more than so-sx to me. First, she's an ESFJ - that says much more to me right there than looking at the so-sx dynamic. And you say enneagram type 2 - the Helper. Well, she is trying to "help" in her way ... I'm not saying it's right, and it's sure not right for you, but most people are not so evolved that they can put themselves into someone else's shoes and understand these differing needs.

At any rate I deeply appreciate your contributions to the thread Morgan.
 

the state i am in

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i think this thread also involved reading into so a lot of esfj and esfp characteristics that are particularly irrelevant to the life of an inxx e5.

and i don't see why the one-night stand analogy is so bad. although the reason we don't call is that we are often introverts who need a lot of recharge time in addition to e5 boundary issues and feeling overwhelmed by the demands, at the level of the will, of others. our intense interest is difficult to read for others, especially when it dissipates with the sobering morning.

others do focus more on building support networks for themselves. that are mutual and beneficial for both parties. i do that a tiny bit but usually it's more so that i have figured out that's something desirable for me in a tangible here now way. generally this involves learning something, bc that's a big part of what's important and enjoyable to me and is how i live my life.

jennifer has pointed out in another thread that we need to have a sense of the boundaries of others in order to grant them their deserved privacy at times, and for us to gauge our own actions and see what they mean to others, how they would be interpreted and how they'd be perceived. bc while we're bitching about so types sometimes (somewhat unfairly), plenty of sp types are bitching about how we invaded and then just swept on thru to another territory without taking into account any consideration for them.
 

Totenkindly

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and i don't see why the one-night stand analogy is so bad.

A one night stand where people agree ahead of time it is not a one-night stand is not bad.

I think we're mostly discussing assumptions -- you meet someone, you have sex... Should you be assuming that, without any prior commitment, suddenly you have one in place because you had sex? That seems a little naive. But sensitive people, even if they don't have a commitment in place, usually try to not just do the "ditch and run" thing. There are multiple ways a temporary congress can be handled that can leave one either feeling used or at least an equitable partner in the decision to become intimate.

But really, the term "one-night stand" is not typically used in the positive sense. To toss it out there especially after all the nuanced content in this thread is needlessly incedinary, IMO.

I also at this point can't tell what is my personal behavior vs generalized behavior for an entire group of people, so I think I'm basically finished....

I am not some vacuous valley-girl just interested in like, you know, how popular I am this week. I don't think anyone I know would say I am shallow or a social butterfly. Yet that's how much of the SO stuff reads. I suppose that's the part I feel resistance to.

This is why I'm finished.

I don't have any intention of making it seem that way, but I don't seem to be able to find a recourse that doesn't result in you feeling that way... and since making you feel that way was never my intention, it just seems imprudent for me to discuss it further right now.

(I'm also completely exhausted in general for lots of reasons and have no more energy for this particular conversation. Looks like a few of the other members have more to say though... so the conversation can continue.)
 

PeaceBaby

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^ I didn't point that comment at you Jennifer, and I feel I have already explained my dramatic metaphor and language choices, which to me seem extreme, but through which I am trying to find boundaries.

Why are you personalizing this instead of trying to clarify it with me? EDIT: Perhaps I need to be more fully clear to say - "Yet that's how much of (generically) the SO stuff reads. I'm not just considering what's in this thread. I assumed that was clear but on a re-read, perhaps not.

I feel again that you misread my intention. So you do a door-slam, minimize/dismiss the material that offended you by reading in an interpretation or intention that did not exist, then toss a passive-aggressive comment out saying "I'm finished here."

And I am chasing this, to understand this. I am here and present and being REAL. I am saying things without the typical diplomatic polish I would apply to such conversations.

So I am being shut off. And being judged, again. Who's truthfully not interested in understanding?

I do respect and appreciate your exhaustion. Just please don't pin that on me or take it out on me.
 

INTPness

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PeaceBaby,

I can relate to Morgan's post about the ESFJ and the frustration therein. These types of things happen all the time and its very frustrating to introverted sx's.

But, I don't think anyone is saying that all "so's" are "vacuous, superficial valley girls". Nor do I think that "so's" are incapable of being deep. For me, it's not about proving to anyone that "I'm deeper than you" or anything like that. I don't really care how deep people think I am. But, remember that you started the thread - you wanted to know about sx's and why we behave certain ways. So, here we are telling you openly and honestly why we behave the way we do. And then you read our very honest answers and turn around and tell us that "we think we have the deepest character". And that we think so's are valley girls. We're simply trying to explain to you how we see it - from our lens. If it helps you understand us better, then the thread has been a success. If you think we're just bragging about how deep we are, then the thread is a failure. I came into this thread simply to help you understand - to feed your curiosity. That's what sx's like to do. You ask us a question about why we behave the way we do or "what makes us tick", and we will help you understand. We want to share that with people. That's part of the sx mentality. Open up and share the deep things - even the frustrations we have as sx's. You've given us an opportunity to kind of "open up" and air out our frustrations, so we do it. With the intentions of helping you to understand us better.

You can either accept that at face value or you can reject it. It's very simple: we like to be deep. We enjoy it. Very much. It makes us happy. That bit of information must be included in our descriptions of our personalities because it is so true - it's a reflection of who we are. So, please don't read it to mean that we think everyone else is a valley girl. Just hear what we are saying about "who we are". Regardless of whether "so's" can be deep people or not (I'm sure they can), the point we are trying to make is that: we love being deep. We don't apologize for that. It's just a fact. I think it's great that you are an "so" and you like to be deep too. I'm not competing with you to see who is "deeper". I'm just here to explain why I like to be deep. I've enjoyed the thread and I hope it continues. If you have more questions, I'm happy to chip in. :cheese:
 

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I am sensing a great deal of defensive reaction now, in particular to two phrase choices, meant for dramatic, extreme effect.

Using such word choices come from generalizations I have seen tossed around here on the forum from time to time ... that SX is "vampiric" and SO "shallow".

I have graciously thrown in disclaimers and apologies for the use of stereotypes, but that's all that seems to garnering attention now.

But I would like to reiterate that my intention is NOT to offend, only understand.

-----

More questions:

Would it be a fair generalization to say that SX-dom NT's want to go deep about knowing facts and SX-dom NF's want to go deep knowing feelings? Or is it a combination of the two?

As an SO-SP, I would meter out personal information about myself, over time, until I felt I could trust you with it. Does that feel like a roadblock to you? Does this "slowness" of divulging come across as too much like work?

What kind of explicit/implicit permissions do you need to receive in order to share about yourself? Do you share first? See what happens? I would imagine over time even the most exuberant SX would exercise a bit of caution before opening up so fully. Myself, I tend to want to know lots about the other person first, then am eager for my turn to share. Like a little dance of sorts. Sometimes, I feel like I never get "my turn". If I don't get asked, I feel it's kind of ... self-centered to just talk about myself. There's probably some social conditioning wrapped up in that too.

Do you think SX is more about understanding, or more about being understood?
 

Totenkindly

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^ I didn't point that comment at you Jennifer, and I feel I have already explained my dramatic metaphor and language choices, which to me seem extreme, but through which I am trying to find boundaries.

Why are you personalizing this instead of trying to clarify it with me? EDIT: Perhaps I need to be more fully clear to say - "Yet that's how much of (generically) the SO stuff reads. I'm not just considering what's in this thread. I assumed that was clear but on a re-read, perhaps not.

I feel again that you misread my intention. So you do a door-slam, minimize/dismiss the material that offended you by reading in an interpretation or intention that did not exist, then toss a passive-aggressive comment out saying "I'm finished here."

And I am chasing this, to understand this. I am here and present and being REAL. I am saying things without the typical diplomatic polish I would apply to such conversations.

So I am being shut off. And being judged, again. Who's truthfully not interested in understanding?

I do respect and appreciate your exhaustion. Just please don't pin that on me or take it out on me.

Sigh.
You're not reading me right. Step back.
This is why I stepped back for a bit... because I'm apparently not reading you right.
 

INTPness

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I am sensing a great deal of defensive reaction now, in particular to two phrase choices, meant for dramatic, extreme effect.

Using such word choices come from generalizations I have seen tossed around here on the forum from time to time ... that SX is "vampiric" and SO "shallow".

I have graciously thrown in disclaimers and apologies for the use of stereotypes, but that's all that seems to garnering attention now.

But I would like to say my intention is NOT to offend, only understand.

Again, not in defensive mode. Just trying to help you understand. That's it.

-----

More questions:

Would it be a fair generalization to say that SX-dom NT's want to go deep about knowing facts and SX-dom NF's want to go deep knowing feelings? Or is it a combination of the two?

I usually only want to go to the "feeling realm" with a romantic partner. With a stranger or someone new, I can handle it OK if they go there, but I may not have enough time to really "tend" to those feelings if I won't be seeing the person much in the future. Feelings are something I need to work at over time. Not just over dinner one night.

With a romantic partner, I definitely want them to be able to share those things with me, but I feel like the amount of "help" I can offer in that area is probably somewhat limited. NT's like logic and we like to keep things "clear", and the deeper you go into the feeling realm it can get pretty "fuzzy". The further into "feeling" that you go, the more "messy" it gets (for lack of a better word). I see things that are logical as being neat, tidy, and manageable. Things that aren't logical are more difficult for me to wrap my brain around - they aren't neat, tidy, and sometimes they aren't something I know how to manage. So, I'm open to the other person sharing their feelings if they want, I just may not understand them in the way they expect me to. I may not "get it" the way an NF would.


As an SO-SP, I would meter out personal information about myself, over time, until I felt I could trust you with it. Does that feel like a roadblock to you? Does this "slowness" of divulging come across as too much like work?

To me, yes. It's not that it's too much work, it's just a feeling of "how long is this really going to continue?" You say you will open up eventually - once you trust me or whatever - but, that shows me that you yourself have thrown up a roadblock to openness and intimacy (not sexual). I'm ready to be open and intimate whenever you are, but if I see that you have a roadblock up, it makes me back up. It makes me think, "if they are throwing up a roadblock, then apparently they think roadblocks are necessary in this relationship. So, logically, I should go ahead and put up a roadblock too." I can't really be "sx" with you, if you have a roadblock. Because I'll keep running into that wall. And I'll feel like you're hiding something, or that I can't trust you because you're not an open book. I'm willing to be patient, but I've got to see some sign of progress. Real, concrete progress. If 6 months goes by and I'm still the only one opening up, it's like, "She'll probably never trust me. She'll probably never trust anyone. I'm willing to wait, but how do I know it's ever going to change if I don't see signs of it?

What kind of implicit permissions do you need to receive in order to share about yourself? Do you share first? See what happens? I would imagine over time even the most exuberant SX would exercise a bit of caution before opening up so fully.

I want it to go "step for step". I open up a bit, then you open up a bit. Then I'll open up further, then you open up further. Once I know that I've opened up like 3 levels beyond what you have, I'll stop. Not to play games, it's more subconcious than that. If you can't "come along with me" on the journey of opening up, then it freezes me. I've told ex's in the past that I'm a total open book. I'll share anything with them. I wear it all on my sleeve. There's nothing I will not talk about. But, you've gotta come with me. I had an ISFP ex and got to know an ENFP woman friend *very deeply* (both had Fi, obviously) and they both thought it was crazy how much I was willing to talk about. They both even said something like, "how do you even do that? I wouldn't even know how to do it, but it seems so effortless to you." I just don't see a reason to hold back.

But, it would always result in me sharing something really personal - or even personal feelings that I had - and then I'd be like, "OK, your turn!" And then they would clam up or "couldn't put it into words" or "needed more time to process" or "can we talk about something else?"

As these relationship went further, it got to the point to where they would ask a "deep question" (how do I feel about them?, etc. :wubbie:) and since I knew they wouldn't reciprocate, then I just started saying stuff like, "I'm always the one answering these questions openly and honestly but you never give me anything back. So, you go ahead and answer that question first and then I'll give you my answer." Then they'd start sweating. "Uhh, ohh, errr." I mean, it's cool - I respect it if someone has trouble opening up - we're all different. But, it just makes it harder for me to proceed with my own comfort level. I want you to be just as open as I am with you. That's where the trust starts to develop - and that's why I like to go to that place - so we can develop trust. It feels healthy to me. It feels right. When we aren't being open it feels like: :peepwall:
 

JocktheMotie

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As a preface, this is really just how it works for me. I've been reading a lot about others' experiences lately and talking with some other Sxs and I've realized I think I'm a bit "out there."

More questions:

Would it be a fair generalization to say that SX-dom NT's want to go deep about knowing facts and SX-dom NF's want to go deep knowing feelings? Or is it a combination of the two?

I don't necessarily know about that. With the people I'm interested in, I'm willing to examine whatever is important to them. However I think the difference might be that perhaps NFs will always examine someone's feelings and details they share as they are part of the person, whereas I don't necessarily do that. It might be projection on my part, but whenever someone describes to me their thoughts or feelings, I tend to examine them as things that are happening to them, not "them." And from such an interaction, I get joy out of the dynamic, the quality of interaction, rather than anything specific about the feelings or thoughts. NFs personalize, NTs depersonalize, relatively automatically and it's just a habit of our minds.

As an SO-SP, I would meter out personal information about myself, over time, until I felt I could trust you with it. Does that feel like a roadblock to you? Does this "slowness" of divulging come across as too much like work?

It does to me, sometimes. It's just not comprehensible to me, really. I don't understand that need so much, so it's frustrating to abide by.


What kind of explicit/implicit permissions do you need to receive in order to share about yourself? Do you share first? See what happens? I would imagine over time even the most exuberant SX would exercise a bit of caution before opening up so fully. Myself, I tend to want to know lots about the other person first, then am eager for my turn to share. Like a little dance of sorts. Sometimes, I feel like I never get "my turn". If I don't get asked, I feel it's kind of ... self-centered to just talk about myself. There's probably some social conditioning wrapped up in that too.

I was actually talking to Lauren Ashley about this, another Sx/Sp, and I realized that I might be in the minority on this one.

I usually make details about myself readily available, almost as though I'm casting out a bunch of fishing lines and trying to see if someone will bite. Since I'm so bad at just general interaction it's the only way I can really see if I can have a good connection or not. I can't just start up conversations with people, they're the ones that sort of have to drive if we're ever going to go anywhere.

I'm not really attached to such details and facts about myself, so there really isn't any fear for me about them being misused. How much does the fisherman fear for the lives of his bait? Same principle applies to me here, though maybe not for others.

Do you think SX is more about understanding, or more about being understood?

I don't know. I don't really worry about that. I think it's irrational to expect to be understood when I can barely understand myself. So, when I look for friends or people, I'm really looking for interactions and dynamics that are exciting and fun for me, without barriers or silly blocks.
 

INTPness

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I'm not really attached to such details and facts about myself, so there really isn't any fear for me about them being misused. How much does the fisherman fear for the lives of his bait? Same principle applies to me here, though maybe not for others.

Interesting. When I'm in a small group, I will also throw things out there (never thought of it as fishing) and see if someone is willing to go a little deeper with me or get into a good discussion about that topic, but I think my "sp" makes sure that I only throw things out that cannot be misused. I'm not going to throw out "really good stuff" right off the bat (I want to see a logical progression - that we're both sharing information with each other). So, at the beginning, I throw out "unimportant stuff" (yet still personal) and see if I get a bite. If I do get a bite, and we go from Level 1 to, say, Level 3 or Level 4, then I'll start to throw out more personal information because I can clearly see that you're coming along with me.

I have a group of "acquaintances/semi-friends" who think I am a very open book. They say there is a lot of layers to me and that I'm a very complex person and I sometimes share a lot and sometimes I draw back. But, when I'm open, I'm really open. But, even though they think I'm really open, they haven't seen half of my "sx" side. They've only gotten the "I don't care if you know this about me" stuff. So, it's like they think I'm pretty intense but I know inside that there's a whole lot more intensity that they'll probably never see - because they aren't really the types that want to (or aren't willing) go to that place. So, I just don't go there with them.
 

PeaceBaby

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^ What would a Level 1 "piece of bait" be, for example?

(For Jock, INTPness and anyone else who's an SX-dom?)
 

JocktheMotie

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Interesting. When I'm in a small group, I will also throw things out there (never thought of it as fishing) and see if someone is willing to go a little deeper with me or get into a good discussion about that topic, but I think my "sp" makes sure that I only throw things out that cannot be misused. I'm not going to throw out "really good stuff" right off the bat (I want to see a logical progression - that we're both sharing information with each other). So, at the beginning, I throw out "unimportant stuff" (yet still personal) and see if I get a bite. If I do get a bite, and we go from Level 1 to, say, Level 3 or Level 4, then I'll start to throw out more personal information because I can clearly see that you're coming along with me.

I have a group of "acquaintances/semi-friends" who think I am a very open book. They say there is a lot of layers to me and that I'm a very complex person and I sometimes share a lot and sometimes I draw back. But, when I'm open, I'm really open. But, even though they think I'm really open, they haven't seen half of my "sx" side. They've only gotten the "I don't care if you know this about me" stuff. So, it's like they think I'm pretty intense but I know inside that there's a whole lot more intensity that they'll probably never see - because they aren't really the types that want to (or aren't willing) go to that place. So, I just don't go there with them.

See, I don't think some facts about myself are ways to hurt me. I can't really be made fun of. But I can be made a fool of. That is what can hurt me. You can lie to me, cheat on me, or take advantage of me and hurt me, so my secondary sp instinct is primarily concerned with protecting that aspect of myself, but I don't know if there's a "personal detail" like that in my entire life that will allow you to do that to me. So I find I can't really relate to that kind of parceling out information and "levels" of bait.
 

INTPness

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To PeaceBaby: Ha ha. Good question. Let me think. OK, let's say that someone says something about being nervous speaking in a public setting. They were extremely nervous to give a speech. I might say something like, "I can relate to that. I supposedly have social anxiety disorder and so it was always a huge struggle for me to do things like that, but I've really come a long way by doing, A, B, and C. It's been an interesting journey, but believe me, it's something that you can get better and more comfortable at. I just gave a speech in front of almost 100 people the other day, and it was a big step, but it was very empowering. So, be encouraged that you can do it!"

I'll say it (a) to encourage them, and (b) I'm throwing something out there about myself. There are a lot of people who think that's something personal. I have an ESFJ family member, for example, who tells me that I should never give this information out - about social anxiety disorder. I think she thinks that it "makes a person look weak" or whatever. I have absolutely no problem sharing this with someone if I think it can help them overcome something. None at all. And I don't think it makes me look weak. And, frankly, I don't care if they think it does. My intention was to help.

So, in "throwing" that Level 1 thing out there, maybe nobody "bites" and the conversation just keeps going and then we all leave and go home. Nothing comes of it. But, once in a while, when I do something like that, there might be 1 person in the group that is "sx" and they might come up to me as we are leaving and say something like, "Thanks for sharing that. That really helped me a lot. Would you mind telling me more about that?" And we may end up talking right there for like 30 minutes - intense conversation. Or, maybe we'll exchange phone numbers and talk later. It's as if what I revealed about myself gave them the impression that I was easy to talk to - and so they feel comfortable opening up to me and it snowballs from there to deeper, more interesting things.
 
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