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Enneagram and Spirituality

Asterion

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...the spiritual agenda is paramount, which is this conversion process. Whether we know it or not, we're all transforming, because we're hungry for the opposite of our vice. Even if we don't know about our vice, we suffer from lack of its opposite tendency. --Helen Palmer, of the Oral Tradition

It's weird that people see the enneagram as a spiritual thing. It doesn't seem very spiritual, but I can understand that people could attribute psychological growth to 'spiritual' growth... but what is it that ties the two together?
 

Chloe

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well i think the spiritual in enneagram context means nothing more than growing, and becoming more yourself.

btw. do you have palmer's book? is it good?
 

Asterion

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well i think the spiritual in enneagram context means nothing more than growing, and becoming more yourself.

btw. do you have palmer's book? is it good?

Unfortunatly not, I might look for it though :yes:

It might be because of it's multiple connections to religion, some link it to The Tree Of Life (Kabbalah), the Christian Nine Fruits of the Spirit +others that I can't be bothered finding...

Spirituality does seem to include introspection and contemplation. I wonder if MBTI has the same kind of connection? Maybe it's just more modern?
 

Chloe

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so do you mind the spiritual look at enneagram?? i mean, if you're kind of repulsed by it..

btw. yeah i've read palmer is the best in the field... (and also one of first who started separating enneagram from MBTI)
maybe i'll order her book:/
 

Asterion

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so do you mind the spiritual look at enneagram?? i mean, if you're kind of repulsed by it..

btw. yeah i've read palmer is the best in the field... maybe i'll order her book:/

I'd have to take a minimum 2 hour bus trip to get it lol, which I'm gonna do soon anyway thankfully.

Spirituality is usually irrational, and it has a connection to religion, which I see as a means of controling people (which it mostly isn't), which repulses me.
 

Chloe

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yeah, exactly my case. except for some weird reason i'm not repulsed by it in enneagram, i guess because i didnt see yet connection to religion or anything irrational.. if i ran into some religious gibberish in enneagram i'll just avoid that author... :blush:
 

compulsiverambler

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The Enneagram has been combined with non-denominational spiritual beliefs by some of its most prominent authors and teachers. Personally, I tend to take the advice and information that is put in to a spiritual context, and reframe it into psychology. Even the mindfulness advice, which I love and think is the most valuable thing, I don't see as necessarily involving anything that can't be easily explained by current scientific knowledge, like souls or gods. I'm just trying to make my brain work more to my advantage. If the authors and Buddhists etc. who talk about mindfulness see it as getting more in touch with God, or with their soul, or whatever, I don't really care, as long as what they're doing works and they're experienced and skilled enough with it to show others how it's done.
 

Gerbah

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I think in the context of the Enneagram specifically, the spiritual aspect of it isn't to do with any religion in the sense of a particular system of structuring life that you believe is prescribed by God. According to what I've read, it's more about using the Enneagram to open your eyes to reality. When you apply it to yourself, then this is to do with getting to know the reality of yourself. Then there is the reality beyond your own personality.

The authors I've read on the topic are Sandra Maitri and A.H. Almaas. They say that the personality isn't the ultimate truth of who you are because personality is basically just the way your ego consciousness is constructed. So it's a set of mental ideas and images that you've identified with as who you are, although lots of them are false or inaccurate because they're outdated or mistaken, so how can some inaccurate ideas really have existence. For them, there is the Enneagram that points to the nine basic worldviews that shape the psychological personality (and its suffering), but there is another layer which is the nine aspects of your true being beyond personality.

These other nine aspects are commonly shared by many religions and belief systems as aspects of the nature of God, which is I think why you can find different religions using the Enneagram in their teachings.

If you're interested, you can find videos of Maitri and Almaas speaking about spirituality and the Enneagram on YouTube.
 

Totenkindly

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... I can understand that people could attribute psychological growth to 'spiritual' growth... but what is it that ties the two together?

:huh:

That is an odd question to me; my entire spirituality in life has always been intertwined with psychological growth, so I did not realize others might not see it that way. It's all about becoming more who you are (self-actualization) and having the healthiest and most productive interactions with other people (behavior) in order for everyone to be most fulfilled. Jung was a good mesh of spirituality and psychology himself.

The Enneagram directions of (dis)integration seem to be very much a spiritual journey, in terms of self-improvement and the process of personal and interpersonal actualization.

Even the diagram itself is Sufi in origin, isn't it?

btw. yeah i've read palmer is the best in the field... (and also one of first who started separating enneagram from MBTI)
maybe i'll order her book:/

Meh. I dislike Palmer.

I always recommend Riso and Hudson, from a systematic viewpoint. They have the most "coherent" vision of the Ennegram. Palmer seems to be partly cobbled together by hearsay and astrological-style commentary. But with their background Catholicism, you're going to see spirituality and psychology intertwined.
 

Gerbah

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Even the diagram itself is Sufi in origin, isn't it?

Sufism is similar in that it is more about inner, individual work rather than Islam as such. There was a famous Christian Sufi, I don't know the name, who made it clear she (I think she) was both Christian and a Sufi. My husband was talking about it the other day. As long as you see an inherent unity and order in all things and that you as an indvidual are not the centre of the universe, you can make use of the spiritual Enneagram.
 

Asterion

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:huh:

That is an odd question to me; my entire spirituality in life has always been intertwined with psychological growth, so I did not realize others might not see it that way. It's all about becoming more who you are (self-actualization) and having the healthiest and most productive interactions with other people (behavior) in order for everyone to be most fulfilled. Jung was a good mesh of spirituality and psychology himself.

The Enneagram directions of (dis)integration seem to be very much a spiritual journey, in terms of self-improvement and the process of personal and interpersonal actualization.

I think it's that I've just associated spirituality with make believe... you know... spirits? lol. But after looking it all up, spirituality is more about the intangible, and involves introspection, thoughts, beliefs and contemplation. I can definitely see how this all fits in with MBTI and the enneagram.

Even the diagram itself is Sufi in origin, isn't it?

Yeah, but they seemed a little uncertain when they stated that, I can't remember. It seems to have come from all sorts of different places, I remember reading somewhere that it originated at around 2500 BC, and that it was also used by the Pythagoreans.
 

evilrobot

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The authors I've read on the topic are Sandra Maitri and A.H. Almaas. They say that the personality isn't the ultimate truth of who you are because personality is basically just the way your ego consciousness is constructed. So it's a set of mental ideas and images that you've identified with as who you are, although lots of them are false or inaccurate because they're outdated or mistaken, so how can some inaccurate ideas really have existence. For them, there is the Enneagram that points to the nine basic worldviews that shape the psychological personality (and its suffering), but there is another layer which is the nine aspects of your true being beyond personality.


Maitri and Almaas have an Eastern disdain for the “self” and/or “personality”, which they view as confining illusions people cling to, especially in the West. There are roughly two main schools of the Enneagram. The Don Riso school, which focuses on ego improvement, and the more esoteric approach of Maitri and Almaas, which focuses on transcending the ego/self altogether – they veiw the Enneagram as a map you use to accompish this.
 

compulsiverambler

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Maitri and Almaas have an Eastern disdain for the “self” and/or “personality”, which they view as confining illusions people cling to, especially in the West. There are roughly two main schools of the Enneagram. The Don Riso school, which focuses on ego improvement, and the more esoteric approach of Maitri and Almaas, which focuses on transcending the ego/self altogether – they veiw the Enneagram as a map you use to accompish this.
In The Wisdom of the Enneagram, Riso and Hudson do actually stress catching the habits of the personality as they arise so that you don't have to act them out and can stop clinging to them, and they cite Almaas as one of their teachers and influences. The idea is that when observing and accepting non-judgmentally our thoughts and feelings and so seeing the motivations behind them (i.e. when mindful), we are much freer to choose whether to act out those of the personality this time, and find that we don't really want to anymore when we see them for what they are. They describe the process as not shedding the personality altogether, but making it more transparent and flexible, "something we drive instead of something that drives us". They basically say that the personality distracts us from and disguises our true selves. The margins are full of quotes like "we don't need to improve ourselves, we just need to let go of what blocks our heart" (Jack Kornfield).
 

speculative

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Yes, in a nutshell it seems like Riso & Hudson agree that it would be great to completely shed the personality, but that in reality this is not a realistic goal to shoot for...
 

the state i am in

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spirituality is about enlightenment, awareness, etc.

all mystical religions have this as the centerpiece. they are focused on a form of communion that creates awareness thru connection. it's also especially feely bc it creates a holistic sense of belonging, feeling your place, finding your own liberation from yourself, your past, etc. you find a way to absorb the world and affirm it even in its most glaring contradictions. you find a way to identify with the parts of the world that were once seen as foreign, threatening, and decidedly OTHER to the ego.

i think this thread is awesome and the fruit of the holy spirit and the kaballah links are really consuming. the idea of a MAP is very strange but makes sense. the lazy tao analogies "the Way" etc.

spiritual enlightenment is thru art, ritual, and religious expression. it is founded on a perceptual experience, a sudden flash of insight or intuition, a glimpse of something greater. it is existential and metaphysical. it is fucking cosmic. that these things can only be represented on a map, that there is a journey that must be undertaken, is to say that our capabilities for experiencing them are predicated on a journey thru time, for we cannot seem them in their simultaneity in one glimpse, grasp their eternal nature, their unfolding, etc.
 

compulsiverambler

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Yes, in a nutshell it seems like Riso & Hudson agree that it would be great to completely shed the personality, but that in reality this is not a realistic goal to shoot for...
They see the goal as to shed it in as much as the personality is defined as a set of defence mechanisms, habitual responses and unchallenged beliefs (which is what the Enneagram types all are). The inborn temperament that contributed to the development of these things and the 'true self' will always remain, according to what I gather they believe.
 

Chloe

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Meh. I dislike Palmer.

I always recommend Riso and Hudson, from a systematic viewpoint. They have the most "coherent" vision of the Ennegram. Palmer seems to be partly cobbled together by hearsay and astrological-style commentary. But with their background Catholicism, you're going to see spirituality and psychology intertwined.


Really? So what do you think of Maitri? Same as Palmer?
 
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