'WTF is this enneagram nonsense!?!?'

[Asterion]

Why is it that so many people underestimate the enneagram so often?

I've seen it happen too many times, they take the tests, read the descriptions and then decide that it's rubbish without delving beyond the surface? or they read some rules and disagree seemingly without really understanding them.

Some like evan and the magic p. have even made an entire new system of wings because they seem to distrust the other system so much. This stuff has been researched, it works, people pay to take tests, people study the enneagram, it's been around for a long while, and it probably wont change much because it does work.

grrr?

 

[compulsiverambler]

I think it's because the information on the Internet usually is very simplistic. Although I was interested, I didn't see reason to believe a lot of it until I read a good introductory book. Without the theory behind the system it does just seem like a collection of personality profiles thrown together in an arbitrarily fixed order and with a bunch of rules attached with no apparent justification, like basic astrology profiling.

 

[Bubbleboy]

That's the problem, taking tests without ever opening an actual book about it. Skimming and glimpsing and taking only what you immediately agree with may work for other stuff, but not psychology. I think these people are doing more harm than good of it, because they are trying to wield a tool they haven't understood.

That and I also thoroughly maintain that people suck.

 

[speculative]

I agree with everything stated so far. If you follow the line of study that traces the Enneagram system back much further than Ichazo, then the Enneagram has been around for much longer than MBTI.

I opened up to the Enneagram much more once I read about the basic virtues, basic fears, etc. Those "distillations" of the types made the Enneagram a bit easier for me when I first started studying the system.

Also, I feel the Enneagram is a great companion to MBTI, since MBTI to me is a "snapshot" of who a person is, while the Enneagram really tries to describe the root cause of their behaviors. The Enneagram has a goal, and you can tell where you're at on a spectrum of health and developmetn. MBTI has none of this, and so is to me very lacking in usefullness in many ways...

 

[paperoceans]

are u mad

 

[Seymour]

I think the Enneagram is easy to underestimate. I think there are a couple of reasons for this.

First, I think it tends to focus more on the negative than most MBTI-ish materials do. Leading with the negative tends to turn off people who are encountering it for the first time.

Secondly, I think it lacks the nifty decompositional elegance that the MBTI has. The MBTI has some appeal since types are (on the surface) composed of different dichotomies. As you dig deeper, there are the 8 functions and their patterned layout. Later, you learn about how functions behave in certain roles. I think it's fairly satisfying on an intuitive level, both in its patterning and its depth. This isn't to say I count it as scientifically validated and representing actual structures in the brain.

The Enneagram, by contrast, doesn't feel as inevitable in its organization and layout. Why these 9 particular virtues/vices? The head/heart/gut groupings have a nice symmetry, but why are the connecting lines placed as they are? Is there any particular reason (other than experiential) that 1 is placed where it is? Or that it is in that slot rather than 3?

All that isn't to discount the Enneagram, but it does seem like there is a little more one has to take on faith and the implicit experience of others.

Where I find value in the Enneagram is that each vice is a bit like a long-term unhealthy Freudian defense mechanism. We can see how we habitually fall into some defense mechanism and be more aware of our tendency to do so. It also acknowledges that having experienced a vice in depth, we can move through it into the virtue of its flip side. In this sense, vice is redeemed and weakness becomes strength.

I admit I'm an Enneagram novice, but I think there is some value there. I think it has a bit more appeal to the more spiritually oriented and a bit less to the more scientifically/philosophically oriented. Note that these days I see myself as a bit more in the latter camp, but maybe I'm fooling myself.

Regardless, I think the Enneagram combines with the MBTI in interesting ways, since it gives a different perspective.

 

[redacted]

Some like evan and the magic p. have even made an entire new system of wings because they seem to distrust the other system so much. This stuff has been researched, it works, people pay to take tests, people study the enneagram, it's been around for a long while, and it probably wont change much because it does work.

It isn't that I think the system doesn't work at all. It's just that I'm not satisfied by the reasons usually given for WHY it works. That's what our system was supposed to be fixing -- you can see WHY it works because we've reduced it to interactions between variables.

There's nothing terrible about enneagram as it stands -- I just personally can't use a system unless I understand why it works. And I figure a good deal of other people here are the same way.

 

[Venom]

I blame the INTPs...

EDIT: oh look see ^^^

 

[JustHer]

Enneagram is interesting to learn but I think it is sort of oddly structured. Like I don't think it should be a type or a tri type, I think people should just sort of read about the different basic desires they identify with and the basic fears that they correlate to, and understand how it all manifests itself in their personality.

 

[Asterion]

Enneagram is interesting to learn but I think it is sort of oddly structured. Like I don't think it should be a type or a tri type, I think people should just sort of read about the different basic desires they identify with and the basic fears that they correlate to, and understand how it all manifests itself in their personality.

You can understand a whole type from that alone, anything they tell you in the profiles can be easily justified by looking at the core motivations and fears, that's where the logic and structure comes into it. Then they add a few other trichotemies (hope that's a word lol) and it brings more shape to the personality. Really, the enneagram is exactly the same as MBTI, it's just that it needs to split behaviour into three groups instead of two.

It isn't that I think the system doesn't work at all. It's just that I'm not satisfied by the reasons usually given for WHY it works. That's what our system was supposed to be fixing -- you can see WHY it works because we've reduced it to interactions between variables.

There's nothing terrible about enneagram as it stands -- I just personally can't use a system unless I understand why it works. And I figure a good deal of other people here are the same way.

The enneagram already uses interactions between variables, I guess they're just harder to see than those of MBTI.

 

[speculative]

The enneagram already uses interactions between variables, I guess they're just harder to see than those of MBTI.

Yes, because they're in motion. MBTI is static.

For example, if I break down, Enneagram can explain the process of moving in the direction of disintegration and falling down the levels of health very accurately. On the other hand, all MBTI could say is, "Oh, he is trying to use Ne where he should have used Ni."

MBTI is like looking through a viewfinder with 16 different images on the card; Enneagram is like looking through a moving kaliedoscope.

 

[Jeffster]

King, you didn't explain WTF this enneagram nonsense is.

 

[Asterion]

King, you didn't explain WTF this enneagram nonsense is.

Look deep inside yourself and the answer will come to you

 

[redacted]

The enneagram already uses interactions between variables, I guess they're just harder to see than those of MBTI.

What are the variables interacting that explain the arrows?

Also, the hornivian group and whatever that other one is are the variables we focused on to build to the 9 types, but you could use something else. As long as the mappings all make sense...

 

[Asterion]

Yes, because they're in motion. MBTI is static.

For example, if I break down, Enneagram can explain the process of moving in the direction of disintegration and falling down the levels of health very accurately. On the other hand, all MBTI could say is, "Oh, he is trying to use Ne where he should have used Ni."

MBTI is like looking through a viewfinder with 16 different images on the card; Enneagram is like looking through a moving kaliedoscope.

I agree, But the motivations always remain the same, it's like being a car-sickness prone passenger in a car, if you look straight ahead everything moves slowly enough for you to percieve that you are not moving and you wont get sick, but if you look out the side windows, everything moves to quickly and you'll end up chucking up

 

[Asterion]

What are the variables interacting that explain the arrows?

Also, the hornivian group and whatever that other one is are the variables we focused on to build to the 9 types, but you could use something else. As long as the mappings all make sense...

Enneagram of Personality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Look under "Directional Scales"

 

[Asterion]

What are the variables interacting that explain the arrows?

Also, the hornivian group and whatever that other one is are the variables we focused on to build to the 9 types, but you could use something else. As long as the mappings all make sense...

I think you've sunk my battleship

*is reading and researching*

 

[Chloe]

grrr?

MBTI is more "catchy", you have functions, and you have many rules...like "if you're leaading with Ne you CANT have inferior Te" and many more so all together, having rules, it's more fun, like some puzzle, with always the same answer. MBTI is more safe....

Enneagram is messed up at surface, people rarely like to look deeper into it.

AND;
maybe biggest reason why MBTI is > Ennea to many is because people usually dont really like to grow as much as they like to self-analyze. MBTI is better for endless self analization without bigger changes. Enneagram is more insigthful about stuff you need to change, it's not THAT fun.. because changing is hard.

 

[Bubbles]

AND;
maybe biggest reason why MBTI is > Ennea to many is because people usually dont really like to grow as much as they like to self-analyze. MBTI is better for endless self analization without bigger changes. Enneagram is more insigthful about stuff you need to change, it's not THAT fun.. because changing is hard.

+10.

 

[compulsiverambler]

The Enneagram, by contrast, doesn't feel as inevitable in its organization and layout. Why these 9 particular virtues/vices? The head/heart/gut groupings have a nice symmetry, but why are the connecting lines placed as they are? Is there any particular reason (other than experiential) that 1 is placed where it is? Or that it is in that slot rather than 3?

All that isn't to discount the Enneagram, but it does seem like there is a little more one has to take on faith and the implicit experience of others.

That's what I was talking about. There are reasons why the types are placed and connected as they are on the symbol. It's one thing to disagree with those reasons, but it's a pity that a lot of people don't seem to know that they've been put forward.