• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[Traditional Enneagram] Sakinorva Alternative Enneagram

Vendrah

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 26, 2017
Messages
1,938
MBTI Type
NP
Enneagram
952
Sorry if this is a dupe post, I dont know where the other one did go and I have to re-write again.

So, some of you may know Sakinorva website for its tests..I think its a russian website, not sure..

And they seem to have alternative enneagram.. I cant find if they hav
e a theory but they have interesting profiles.

It doesnt seem to have a central page, you have to search "Alternative Enneagram" on here search results

The last results are somewhat interesting... examples:

1w7 "The Utopist"
mbti ENFJ enneagram 1w2
idr/function ENFJ variants so/sx
tritype® 137 socionics EIE

5w1 "The Intellectual"
mbti INTJ enneagram 5w6
idr/function INTJ variants sp/so
tritype® 514 socionics LII

This is something really interesting to debate...
 

Peter Deadpan

phallus impudicus
Joined
Dec 14, 2016
Messages
8,882
I don't like what they did with the wings. It's blasphemous to the metaphysical mechanics of the system itself.
 

Vendrah

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 26, 2017
Messages
1,938
MBTI Type
NP
Enneagram
952
I don't like what they did with the wings. It's blasphemous to the metaphysical mechanics of the system itself.

Do you know why the enneagram wings are restricted like they are...

I mean,why not a 9w5 or 9w2, for example? Why only 9w1 and 9w8 (same for all others)?
 

Peter Deadpan

phallus impudicus
Joined
Dec 14, 2016
Messages
8,882
Do you know why the enneagram wings are restricted like they are...

I mean,why not a 9w5 or 9w2, for example? Why only 9w1 and 9w8 (same for all others)?

Yes, I do, but I cannot explain it right now because I'm at work. My short answer is that the Enneagram is a system with directional flow and clear lines of connection (erroneously referred to as "integration" and "disintegration").
 

RadicalDoubt

Alongside Questionable Clarity
Joined
Jun 27, 2017
Messages
1,847
MBTI Type
TiSi
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
This is interesting conceptually but I think tends to ignore the structure of the theory itself and is a theory born more from mistakes and misunderstandings then anything else. Lots of the "typexwing" are either types that commonly mistype as one another or are connected through disinta/integration. There's a couple that are just triadically related as well, I think the majority of these types can be encapsulated well, if not better, in the system as it is. Enneagram has it's holes and flaws being that it is inexact and nothing near scientific, but I think something like this would make it even more convoluted than it is and, if implemented, would be overly focused on outward behaviors rather then intrinsic fears and motivations. 6w1? Can be described by looking at a Soc 6 or a 6 with a 1 fix. 7w1? It's just a disintegrated 7 or one with a 1 fix. 5w7/7w5? Looking at the nature of the attachment types, probably a 6 core and if not that some disintegrated or soc 5.

Nonetheless, I wish they had provided some sort of reasoning for the system they made here... It seems, at a basic level, covered in the tritype theory.

Do you know why the enneagram wings are restricted like they are...

I mean,why not a 9w5 or 9w2, for example? Why only 9w1 and 9w8 (same for all others)?

I like what [MENTION=27416]Brains[/MENTION] wrote in responce to this sort of question (found here)

There's a bit of a rhyme and reason to it: Adjacent types usually share issues or approaches: 8 and 7 and for example both feel they need something, the fundamental solution is to figure out if you can get it and and if so how, when a 5 or 1 in contrast will likely rationalize that they didn't want it after all. 4 and 5 are both highly introspective types, just in different areas. 8 and 9, likewise, feel that they are or are in danger of being overlooked, and face that with different strategies. Likewise all the image types all answer their own feeling of inadequacy by aspiring to embody or putting up an image that in their minds should get the recognition they need. You can kind of blend a type together from the adjacent wing-types.

(Note: Idk if it's ok to quote you Brains, I just liked your response, let me know if you have a problem with this)
 

Vendrah

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 26, 2017
Messages
1,938
MBTI Type
NP
Enneagram
952
This is interesting conceptually but I think tends to ignore the structure of the theory itself and is a theory born more from mistakes and misunderstandings then anything else. Lots of the "typexwing" are either types that commonly mistype as one another or are connected through disinta/integration. There's a couple that are just triadically related as well, I think the majority of these types can be encapsulated well, if not better, in the system as it is. Enneagram has it's holes and flaws being that it is inexact and nothing near scientific, but I think something like this would make it even more convoluted than it is and, if implemented, would be overly focused on outward behaviors rather then intrinsic fears and motivations. 6w1? Can be described by looking at a Soc 6 or a 6 with a 1 fix. 7w1? It's just a disintegrated 7 or one with a 1 fix. 5w7/7w5? Looking at the nature of the attachment types, probably a 6 core and if not that some disintegrated or soc 5.

Nonetheless, I wish they had provided some sort of reasoning for the system they made here... It seems, at a basic level, covered in the tritype theory.



I like what [MENTION=27416]Brains[/MENTION] wrote in responce to this sort of question (found here)



(Note: Idk if it's ok to quote you Brains, I just liked your response, let me know if you have a problem with this)

I know that, as some defenders of MBTI fixed stacks does, you or anyone can advocate that there is a massive mistyping, but still consider this.

You can search members on Typology Central in a way that anyone can counts, for example, how many INFPs the forum has, by simply restricting the search for MBTI "INFP". You can do the same for enneagram. So I focused on 9, which Im unsure of but its likely to be my enneagram, at least for this year, and I searched 91, 92, 93, etc... and had the count.. That searching means that, in 91 example, you will count how many "91" are inside the tri-type people insert, so it counts x91 (random example: 791 tritype) and 91x (random example: 915). Here are the results:

'91' - 2
'92' - 13
'93' - 7
'94' - 20
'95' - 19
'96' - 8
'97' - 10
'98' - 1
And...
'90' - 2 (p90x and 090; more like a joke)
'99' - 0

If you observe some tests that measures all types, you really see the same pattern: People with wing 9 dont usually has 8 or 1 right after.
If any assumptions about 8 and 1 being extremely more compatible than the other wings from 9 are correct, then we would observe '91' and '98' being the most common on the search instead while there would be a very few results from others (which would be more related to jokes as 9w0 is).

Of course, I focused on 9 but I could do it in any enneagram.

There is one thing I get it although... If we were to unrestrict the wings, we would get way too many types (as there are 999 different tri-types although some of them should never happen). Wings unrestricted, every type would have 8 variations, making 8*9=72 different types (remembering that 1w9 and 9w1 doesnt count as the same, the same for every other type).

EDIT: From where I understand, what decides if you are 9w1 or 9w8 is a simple comparison if your 1 is higher than your 8 or 8>1. However, that gives the impression that one doesnt have much traits for other enneagrams, and there are 9w1s with 5 or 7 traits.
 

RadicalDoubt

Alongside Questionable Clarity
Joined
Jun 27, 2017
Messages
1,847
MBTI Type
TiSi
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
I know that, as some defenders of MBTI fixed stacks does, you or anyone can advocate that there is a massive mistyping, but still consider this.

You can search members on Typology Central in a way that anyone can counts, for example, how many INFPs the forum has, by simply restricting the search for MBTI "INFP". You can do the same for enneagram. So I focused on 9, which Im unsure of but its likely to be my enneagram, at least for this year, and I searched 91, 92, 93, etc... and had the count.. That searching means that, in 91 example, you will count how many "91" are inside the tri-type people insert, so it counts x91 (random example: 791 tritype) and 91x (random example: 915). Here are the results:

'91' - 2
'92' - 13
'93' - 7
'94' - 20
'95' - 19
'96' - 8
'97' - 10
'98' - 1
And...
'90' - 2 (p90x and 090; more like a joke)
'99' - 0

If you observe some tests that measures all types, you really see the same pattern: People with wing 9 dont usually has 8 or 1 right after.
If any assumptions about 8 and 1 being extremely more compatible than the other wings from 9 are correct, then we would observe '91' and '98' being the most common on the search instead while there would be a very few results from others (which would be more related to jokes as 9w0 is).

Of course, I focused on 9 but I could do it in any enneagram.
You had an interesting idea here that would've worked if it followed how tritype theory is formulated. 91x (or any other permutation of that) is not a valid tritype under the current standardized theory. 98x falls into the same category. Tritype theory as it is defined takes the enneatype of each of the three centres of intelligence (one head, one heart, one gut) that fits your motivations and fears most, not just any arbitrary enneatype. Since the vast majority of people will follow the defined theory, you will not see the vast majority of people of use an incorrect format, thus 98x and 91x will be, by default, the lowest scores. Nonetheless, you will find plenty of people identifying as 9w1 or 9w8, not that that really means anything on my side.

I think a better point that I'm assuming you probably wanted to get at more than this is that people often resonate more with the traits or even motivations/defense mechanisms of other types that, under the traditional theory, couldn't be applied as wings. This is at least where I thought you were going to take the argument. This I would say is a valid interpretation, although I would argue these relations are covered within triadic relations.

All the enneatypes are divided into three different groupings (the centres of intelligence, hovernian triad, object relations) which define traits and motivations which are essential to the types defined within them. As an example, 9 and 4 often relate to one another a lot, primarily because both types are defined within the withdrawn triad, having similar traits of being reserved, introspective, low energy/not starters, generally observers to the world. They even are defined to have similar defense mechanisms, as when faced with stress and their fears, they are inclined to retreat into their inner world and contemplate. Many people, if given the opportunity (as well as, I'd argue, a superficial knowledge of how the theory is constructed), would likely type as 4w9 or 9w4 if a system that allowed for semi-random wing combinations was constructed.

Realistically though, the fears and defense mechanisms individual to the type are not complimentary. The core type defines the main fears and motivations, the wing is added as a flavor, it'd be better to consider it as a sliding scale for how a personality might appear by defining two archetypal manifestations (ie. pure 9w8 or pure 9w1 with no mixing) rather than a type you are supposed to relate to necessarily. In a sense, it furthers how motivations and fears are expressed.

I'll use my own type as an example to provide something tangible that'll lead into a more clear cut explanation (just because it's easier and I'm also a pretty good example), 3w4. I really don't relate to 2 or 4 at as individual types comparatively to other types. By traits and motivations, I would not fit well into either category because I don't fear not receiving or being loved/being unlovable and don't really care in the slightest if I am unique or one who is hidden within the crowd so long as I can pursue and reach my ambitions and goals. In terms of types that I can tangibly see my own personality in, I'd easily type a 3w5 or a 3w1 just because the fear of being incapable/powerless and the fear of being corrupted, are far more important to me than either 2 or 4s fears. Of course 3s fear, of lacking value/being useless probably overpowers both of even those. 1, 5, and 3 are all types defined within the hovernian triads as "competency types," thus they all have similar traits, motivations, and defense mechanisms which link them together. However, despite this, these types are not comparable as wings as it is defined within the theory, I'd argue. 3 and 5 both fear incapability, but go about dealing with that in different ways. 3 is an image type, requiring tangible examples of how they're not a failure, thus are compelled to go out there and prove that they're not one. 5, contrarily, is not. 5s defense is avarice as a head type, retreating to themselves and compiling knowledge do use as as a means of gaining control (ie. knowledge is power). A 3 can hoard information and compile it, a 5 can be focused on external pointers to their control or capability, but in the end, the methodology and motivations the two have do not mesh in the way a wing and core type would. You could say the same about 1 and 3, though I won't throw you through another of my long explanations defining that.

The fears and mechanisms of 2 and 4 however, do compliment 3. To combat feeling unloved, 2 goes out and makes themselves undesposible to others via helping others or becoming what is desirable or lovable. Being lovable or desirable is something that can be acquired and measured tangibly. Being lovable could make someone feel as though they have worth or value, therefore, the fears and mechanisms are compatible. The 3 may not consider unlovable something that necessarily fear, and might rate other fears as more relevant, but the mechanisms of two flavors 3 and are used as "a means to an end." Same with 4, to keep an identity that is identifiable, they cultivate and construct their identity so they are "authentic" and unique comparatively to others, separable. Uniqueness and authenticity is something that can be measured and acquired tangibly, thus, similarly to 2, 4 and 3 have compatible fears and motivations, thus make sense as wings to one another. I certainly don't go around fearing that I'll have no identity (ie. I know I don't have one; I more so fear annihilation which I have confused with 4 motivations back when I struggled to identify my type), but being worth something means exceeding to me, constructing a personality that I value and meets a niche that not everyone can meet.

It's all about compatibly of fears and motivations I'd argue are the biggest things in wings.

There is one thing I get it although... If we were to unrestrict the wings, we would get way too many types (as there are 999 different tri-types although some of them should never happen). Wings unrestricted, every type would have 8 variations, making 8*9=72 different types (remembering that 1w9 and 9w1 doesnt count as the same, the same for every other type).

EDIT: From where I understand, what decides if you are 9w1 or 9w8 is a simple comparison if your 1 is higher than your 8 or 8>1. However, that gives the impression that one doesnt have much traits for other enneagrams, and there are 9w1s with 5 or 7 traits.
I don't think having too many types is a problem in the slightest. No one is exactly alike, so having more degrees of freedom is actually a beneficial thing in making a theory accurate, which is why I'd argue that a model where wings and even tritype fixes are treated as sliding scales in terms of strength are more beneficial that something static, although that's how I thought the theory worked from the get go. I even thing that way about the mbti, although regardless of what form of the theory you use (static stacks, fluid stacks, dichotomes, ect) the theory is too poorly defined to even be accurate in the slightest, although that doesn't have much to do with the enneagram argument and is a tangent that really doesn't have to be addressed.
 

Vendrah

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 26, 2017
Messages
1,938
MBTI Type
NP
Enneagram
952
You had an interesting idea here that would've worked if it followed how tritype theory is formulated. 91x (or any other permutation of that) is not a valid tritype under the current standardized theory. 98x falls into the same category. Tritype theory as it is defined takes the enneatype of each of the three centres of intelligence (one head, one heart, one gut) that fits your motivations and fears most, not just any arbitrary enneatype. Since the vast majority of people will follow the defined theory, you will not see the vast majority of people of use an incorrect format, thus 98x and 91x will be, by default, the lowest scores. Nonetheless, you will find plenty of people identifying as 9w1 or 9w8, not that that really means anything on my side.

I think a better point that I'm assuming you probably wanted to get at more than this is that people often resonate more with the traits or even motivations/defense mechanisms of other types that, under the traditional theory, couldn't be applied as wings. This is at least where I thought you were going to take the argument. This I would say is a valid interpretation, although I would argue these relations are covered within triadic relations.

All the enneatypes are divided into three different groupings (the centres of intelligence, hovernian triad, object relations) which define traits and motivations which are essential to the types defined within them. As an example, 9 and 4 often relate to one another a lot, primarily because both types are defined within the withdrawn triad, having similar traits of being reserved, introspective, low energy/not starters, generally observers to the world. They even are defined to have similar defense mechanisms, as when faced with stress and their fears, they are inclined to retreat into their inner world and contemplate. Many people, if given the opportunity (as well as, I'd argue, a superficial knowledge of how the theory is constructed), would likely type as 4w9 or 9w4 if a system that allowed for semi-random wing combinations was constructed.

Realistically though, the fears and defense mechanisms individual to the type are not complimentary. The core type defines the main fears and motivations, the wing is added as a flavor, it'd be better to consider it as a sliding scale for how a personality might appear by defining two archetypal manifestations (ie. pure 9w8 or pure 9w1 with no mixing) rather than a type you are supposed to relate to necessarily. In a sense, it furthers how motivations and fears are expressed.

I'll use my own type as an example to provide something tangible that'll lead into a more clear cut explanation (just because it's easier and I'm also a pretty good example), 3w4. I really don't relate to 2 or 4 at as individual types comparatively to other types. By traits and motivations, I would not fit well into either category because I don't fear not receiving or being loved/being unlovable and don't really care in the slightest if I am unique or one who is hidden within the crowd so long as I can pursue and reach my ambitions and goals. In terms of types that I can tangibly see my own personality in, I'd easily type a 3w5 or a 3w1 just because the fear of being incapable/powerless and the fear of being corrupted, are far more important to me than either 2 or 4s fears. Of course 3s fear, of lacking value/being useless probably overpowers both of even those. 1, 5, and 3 are all types defined within the hovernian triads as "competency types," thus they all have similar traits, motivations, and defense mechanisms which link them together. However, despite this, these types are not comparable as wings as it is defined within the theory, I'd argue. 3 and 5 both fear incapability, but go about dealing with that in different ways. 3 is an image type, requiring tangible examples of how they're not a failure, thus are compelled to go out there and prove that they're not one. 5, contrarily, is not. 5s defense is avarice as a head type, retreating to themselves and compiling knowledge do use as as a means of gaining control (ie. knowledge is power). A 3 can hoard information and compile it, a 5 can be focused on external pointers to their control or capability, but in the end, the methodology and motivations the two have do not mesh in the way a wing and core type would. You could say the same about 1 and 3, though I won't throw you through another of my long explanations defining that.

The fears and mechanisms of 2 and 4 however, do compliment 3. To combat feeling unloved, 2 goes out and makes themselves undesposible to others via helping others or becoming what is desirable or lovable. Being lovable or desirable is something that can be acquired and measured tangibly. Being lovable could make someone feel as though they have worth or value, therefore, the fears and mechanisms are compatible. The 3 may not consider unlovable something that necessarily fear, and might rate other fears as more relevant, but the mechanisms of two flavors 3 and are used as "a means to an end." Same with 4, to keep an identity that is identifiable, they cultivate and construct their identity so they are "authentic" and unique comparatively to others, separable. Uniqueness and authenticity is something that can be measured and acquired tangibly, thus, similarly to 2, 4 and 3 have compatible fears and motivations, thus make sense as wings to one another. I certainly don't go around fearing that I'll have no identity (ie. I know I don't have one; I more so fear annihilation which I have confused with 4 motivations back when I struggled to identify my type), but being worth something means exceeding to me, constructing a personality that I value and meets a niche that not everyone can meet.

It's all about compatibly of fears and motivations I'd argue are the biggest things in wings.

I don't think having too many types is a problem in the slightest. No one is exactly alike, so having more degrees of freedom is actually a beneficial thing in making a theory accurate, which is why I'd argue that a model where wings and even tritype fixes are treated as sliding scales in terms of strength are more beneficial that something static, although that's how I thought the theory worked from the get go. I even thing that way about the mbti, although regardless of what form of the theory you use (static stacks, fluid stacks, dichotomes, ect) the theory is too poorly defined to even be accurate in the slightest, although that doesn't have much to do with the enneagram argument and is a tangent that really doesn't have to be addressed.

Finally the answer...=P

These days I started searching for enneagram in Google Scholar and found a few articles...
Curiously, enneagram is older than both MBTI and Big 5. It has hundreds of years, but only started being imported to America (I mean the whole America, from North Canada to South Argentina) in the 80´s.

Surprisingly, the test-retest ratio were kind of similar with each other... Types didnt had internal correlations, for example if you are more 3 than you are not necessarily more or less 8 (although these types in Big 5 in average are quite similar), meaning that the enneagram (no wings/tritype version) is reasonable.

Abstract said:
One of the most common questions I am asked when introducing people to the Enneagram goes something along the lines of: “Yes, but is it real? What scientific evidence is there?” It was exactly that question that prompted me to do my PhD research a few years ago. I could see the Enneagram worked for me but I wanted to know if it could stand up to rigorous psychological research. In this article, I have tried to summarise the published research on the Enneagram so that next time someone asks you that question you can answer confidently, “Yes, there is good evidence of its validity, let me tell you about it…”

e-space

Not in this study specifically, but on other ones, they made a similar experience that I did, and measure which scores 9s gets in other types in average and did the same for everytype as well (and they didnt had the invalid triad problem I did), they basically didnt find the proper wings in most of 9 types (dont know about the triads although).

They even are defined to have similar defense mechanisms, as when faced with stress and their fears, they are inclined to retreat into their inner world and contemplate

These things can be somewhat putten to the test. I dont think I could take info on that on Google Scholar, although I could ask the Sakinorva woman/guy about stats on her/his enneagram test, and see if questions like "When stressed or with fears, I tend to be inclined to retreat into my own inner world and contemplate" --> heavily agree to heavily disagree.

Im not quite sure if I trust the pure theory, although I do get some interest on it. 9w1 does have a meaning, even if most of 9w1 doesnt quite relate to 1, and thats the same for 3w4 and stuff like that, however Im quite unsure of these connections. Anyways, where you read these triads theory and things? Dont remember seeing good texts on that, but Im slowly learning enneagram with no hurrys, but in next days I pretend to give some google scholar reads in enneagrams, I had a quick look just on stats on the articles and read some titles, things seems to be interesting, specially in the history.
 

Tina&Jane

Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2017
Messages
333
Enneagram
9
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
I think the unorthodox core/wing combinations seem questionable, but I am getting a kick out of some of the nicknames like "the paranoid android", "the basement dweller", and "the edgelord"
 

Luminous

༻✧✧༺
Joined
Oct 25, 2017
Messages
10,170
MBTI Type
Iᑎᖴᑭ
Enneagram
952
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Im not quite sure if I trust the pure theory, although I do get some interest on it. 9w1 does have a meaning, even if most of 9w1 doesnt quite relate to 1, and thats the same for 3w4 and stuff like that, however Im quite unsure of these connections. Anyways, where you read these triads theory and things? Dont remember seeing good texts on that, but Im slowly learning enneagram with no hurrys, but in next days I pretend to give some google scholar reads in enneagrams, I had a quick look just on stats on the articles and read some titles, things seems to be interesting, specially in the history.

Here are some references:
Tritype: Tritype(R) Enneastyle
Triads: The Enneagram Triads - |
Enneagram Centres
 

Luminous

༻✧✧༺
Joined
Oct 25, 2017
Messages
10,170
MBTI Type
Iᑎᖴᑭ
Enneagram
952
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I think the unorthodox core/wing combinations seem questionable, but I am getting a kick out of some of the nicknames like "the paranoid android", "the basement dweller", and "the edgelord"

Yes, I don't think the alternate wings make any sense at all.

You could look at them as tritype combos...
I do like 2w9: The Lover
3w7: The Charismatic
9w2: The Peacemaker
9w5: The Wizard

They have 9w8 as The Cat! [MENTION=30038]The Cat[/MENTION]

but 6w7 as "the hitler youth"? Ouch.
 

Tina&Jane

Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2017
Messages
333
Enneagram
9
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
They seem more like a joke or someone playing around rather than a serious attempt at revamping enneagram theory, but yeah some of the names are not a good look
 

The Cat

Just a Magic Cat who hangs out at the Crossroads.
Staff member
Joined
Oct 15, 2016
Messages
23,628
Yes, I don't think the alternate wings make any sense at all.

You could look at them as tritype combos...
I do like 2w9: The Lover
3w7: The Charismatic
9w2: The Peacemaker
9w5: The Wizard

They have 9w8 as The Cat! [MENTION=30038]The Cat[/MENTION]

but 6w7 as "the hitler youth"? Ouch.

For what reason have you summoned, I, The Cat to this?:shrug:
 

Luminous

༻✧✧༺
Joined
Oct 25, 2017
Messages
10,170
MBTI Type
Iᑎᖴᑭ
Enneagram
952
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
For what reason have you summoned, I, The Cat to this?:shrug:

Because they named a type after you.
7.gif
 

Vendrah

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 26, 2017
Messages
1,938
MBTI Type
NP
Enneagram
952
They seem more like a joke or someone playing around rather than a serious attempt at revamping enneagram theory, but yeah some of the names are not a good look

Perhaps, but still interesting.
If in one side, it is questionable to do these 2w9 and these alternative, in the other side, by what I point out, the own actual wing system is questionable as well.
 

Boogie man

Da Voodoo
Joined
Mar 19, 2014
Messages
145
MBTI Type
TiSe
Enneagram
9
This has nothing to do with the Enneagram. These people just use the terms "Enneagram" and "tritype" incorrectly and then use numbers 1 to 9. That's the only commonality it has to it. No type is described correctly. This went off the deep end of "alternative" straight into "wrong."
 

Chad of the OttomanEmpire

Give me a fourth dot.
Joined
Jun 9, 2013
Messages
1,053
MBTI Type
NeTi
Enneagram
478
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
I mean people didn't just arbitrarily line up the types and say, You must choose a wing next to you. The idea of wings came from years of observations and interviews. It's like the table of elements--people didn't just place the elements where they wanted, they arranged them in a way that unfolded naturally and made many patterns obvious.

One pattern enneagram makes obvious is that each type is generally able to recognize the psychologies of its neighbouring types within itself. This has been noted as far back as Ichazo, and some theorists even argue for Wing Tension Theory--the notion that our core type is the created the tensions/differences between our two (adjacent) wings.

I personally have readily found both wings in myself, operating at baseline, and it has been a great aid to inner work. I have also seen this wing pattern clearly in others--reliably enough that I am easily able to settle typing disputes by looking for the presence of both wings. There is order and structure to the universe.

I can only think that whoever invented this alternate enneagram hasn't gone deeply enough with enneagram, or observed it enough in the real world. The phenomenon of fixed-pattern wings is real and observable to those deeply-enough acquainted with the material. It's not orthodoxy, it's repeated observation.

As an aside, I can't seem to access the link on my phone, so I can't give my opinion on that part of it specifically. Sounds like a hoot though.

EDIT: Aaaaand 8w4, the Edgelord. I would probably be that if this theory were legit. And that is such a gross misunderstanding of what the two types are about. Try, Loner on a personal quest. I have no need to flaunt my edginess. I'm more interested in diplomacy, command, and rebuilding my life. Shrug. I knew it.
 

Vendrah

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 26, 2017
Messages
1,938
MBTI Type
NP
Enneagram
952
I mean people didn't just arbitrarily line up the types and say, You must choose a wing next to you. The idea of wings came from years of observations and interviews. It's like the table of elements--people didn't just place the elements where they wanted, they arranged them in a way that unfolded naturally and made many patterns obvious.

One pattern enneagram makes obvious is that each type is generally able to recognize the psychologies of its neighbouring types within itself. This has been noted as far back as Ichazo, and some theorists even argue for Wing Tension Theory--the notion that our core type is the created the tensions/differences between our two (adjacent) wings.

I personally have readily found both wings in myself, operating at baseline, and it has been a great aid to inner work. I have also seen this wing pattern clearly in others--reliably enough that I am easily able to settle typing disputes by looking for the presence of both wings. There is order and structure to the universe.

I can only think that whoever invented this alternate enneagram hasn't gone deeply enough with enneagram, or observed it enough in the real world. The phenomenon of fixed-pattern wings is real and observable to those deeply-enough acquainted with the material. It's not orthodoxy, it's repeated observation.

As an aside, I can't seem to access the link on my phone, so I can't give my opinion on that part of it specifically. Sounds like a hoot though.

EDIT: Aaaaand 8w4, the Edgelord. I would probably be that if this theory were legit. And that is such a gross misunderstanding of what the two types are about. Try, Loner on a personal quest. I have no need to flaunt my edginess. I'm more interested in diplomacy, command, and rebuilding my life. Shrug. I knew it.

Surprisingly, the enneagram has some Google Scholar article as I said before.
There is evidence for the enneagram to be as respectable as Big 5 and MBTI, but thats for the 9 types enneagram.
One of the articles did the same observation as I did (they measured what are the trend for other wings which arent the main) and the wings werent properly working (but the 9 types were). People with 9, for example, were not getting 1 and 8 in 2nd and 3rd. However, I didnt read that data with tritype theory in mind, so I dont know if that data goes against or in favor of tritype theory.
Actually, more than one article should already did that.

About the enneagram history, thats quite interesting. I did a quick read that I dont remember much, but as far as I remember the enneagram was passed based on traditions somewhere in middle-east, and it was imported to America only in the 80´s. It should be the oldest typology from the typology triad (Big 5, MBTI, Enneagram). It doesnt really have a known creator or a list of creators, but I wouldnt be surprised if there is one institute "controlling" the "official" theory.
 

RadicalDoubt

Alongside Questionable Clarity
Joined
Jun 27, 2017
Messages
1,847
MBTI Type
TiSi
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Finally the answer...=P

These days I started searching for enneagram in Google Scholar and found a few articles...
Curiously, enneagram is older than both MBTI and Big 5. It has hundreds of years, but only started being imported to America (I mean the whole America, from North Canada to South Argentina) in the 80´s.
Sorry it took me so long to get back to you on this. Interesting, genuinely I've never looked into what google scholar has on the enneagram (which is sort of odd, since I've come across serious enough articles regarding the big 5 and mbti and such), I've mostly focused on the books and theory structure. I didn't know much about it historically either, I knew it was an older theory, however I didn't know it was newer in the Americas.

Not in this study specifically, but on other ones, they made a similar experience that I did, and measure which scores 9s gets in other types in average and did the same for everytype as well (and they didnt had the invalid triad problem I did), they basically didnt find the proper wings in most of 9 types (dont know about the triads although).


These things can be somewhat putten to the test. I dont think I could take info on that on Google Scholar, although I could ask the Sakinorva woman/guy about stats on her/his enneagram test, and see if questions like "When stressed or with fears, I tend to be inclined to retreat into my own inner world and contemplate" --> heavily agree to heavily disagree.
Within type descriptions, even not considering the triads, 9, 5, and 4 all have a tendency to be described this way via description, using the inner world as a retreat in order to deal with their fears and the stresses of life. But you're disagreement/skepticism is valid here honestly. Of the enneagram theories, wing theory is younger than the concept of enneagram as a whole and, depending on how you define them (ie. as an adjacent modifier to core type behavior or a secondary type you are most supposed to relate to), the theory can be somewhat wobbly.

Im not quite sure if I trust the pure theory, although I do get some interest on it. 9w1 does have a meaning, even if most of 9w1 doesnt quite relate to 1, and thats the same for 3w4 and stuff like that, however Im quite unsure of these connections. Anyways, where you read these triads theory and things? Dont remember seeing good texts on that, but Im slowly learning enneagram with no hurrys, but in next days I pretend to give some google scholar reads in enneagrams, I had a quick look just on stats on the articles and read some titles, things seems to be interesting, specially in the history.
The links that [MENTION=35566]Luminous[/MENTION] recommended are some really good resources to start with (I'm thankful she suggested them, I don't keep track of my resources very well). If you're able to get access, I'd suggest "Wisdom of The Enneagram" by Riso and Hudson (it's a bit lengthy, you probably don't have to read the whole thing either and could probably get it for free off the interwebs, but it has a good amount of information on the triads, the types, and more detailed explanation about how the theory is structured).
 
Top