[Traditional Enneagram] Question about ennea-type 9 in relation to instincts

[Peter Deadpan]

I need to know this to better understand the type, and possibly to better understand all of the types: How does self-forgetting manifest in 9s respective to primary instinct?

Specifically, I am trying to understand sexual 9s. It seems to me that they would be self-forgetting and absent in the realm of attraction/repulsion, particularly with their mate if they have one. However, this seems to be in contrast to how I have understood the sexual instinct, so I am trying to understand how self-forgetting pairs with the instincts. Does it weirdly cancel them out??? Like... a self-preservation 9 would be "asleep" to issues pertaining to self-preservation, so they oftentimes have issues with overeating, alcoholism, or physical laziness.

Conversely to my original question, sexual 9s are prone to triangulation, which is still a move toward satisfying sx-needs, which seems to again contradict the self-forgetting/absent nature of 9s.

Would this make sexual 9s the least Sx-y of the 9s because they are asleep to it??? I cannot comprehend how that could be the case over a sexual-blind 9. I do think I understand the merging/absorbing quality of sexual 9s in romantic relationships, but overall, the pieces as a whole aren't fitting together yet.

What am I missing here?

- - - Updated - - -

I am exhausted and I hope that all made sense.

 

[cascadeco]

I need to know this to better understand the type, and possibly to better understand all of the types: How does self-forgetting manifest in 9s respective to primary instinct?

Specifically, I am trying to understand sexual 9s. It seems to me that they would be self-forgetting and absent in the realm of attraction/repulsion, particularly with their mate if they have one. However, this seems to be in contrast to how I have understood the sexual instinct, so I am trying to understand how self-forgetting pairs with the instincts. Does it weirdly cancel them out??? Like... a self-preservation 9 would be "asleep" to issues pertaining to self-preservation, so they oftentimes have issues with overeating, alcoholism, or physical laziness.

Conversely to my original question, sexual 9s are prone to triangulation, which is still a move toward satisfying sx-needs, which seems to again contradict the self-forgetting/absent nature of 9s.

Would this make sexual 9s the least Sx-y of the 9s because they are asleep to it??? I cannot comprehend how that could be the case over a sexual-blind 9. I do think I understand the merging/absorbing quality of sexual 9s in romantic relationships, but overall, the pieces as a whole aren't fitting together yet.

What am I missing here?

- - - Updated - - -

I am exhausted and I hope that all made sense.

Disclaimer - I don't know a huge amount about how 9's are 'supposed' to be and what is 'supposed' to make them tick.

I am wondering if 'self forgetting' and absent is being taken too literally. I suppose from the external observer that could be the easiest way to describe it? Maybe it 100% appears to be the case? I would say though that at least for me, there's no forgetting, there is just typically a lot of selection being done to just focus on something more positive or enjoyable, since everything else is completely out of ones' control (many things, that is), or nothing I can say or do will change the nature of any of it -- whether the world at large, whether I've determined the nature of the relationship is such that it IS and won't be changing so I either need to accept it or effectively leave it [I'd imagine many 9's might not have the courage to leave it? Or would rationalize to stay simply because they know (or it very well might be true) that the grass won't be greener anywhere else and some semblance of the same sort of issue would arise whomever they are with -- see, all kinds of rationalizations could occur even if the 'truth' is leaving would be better]. And so on.

The sp 9 who might be more susceptible to overeating, drugs, alcoholism, and the like - well I highly doubt (unless they're not very bright, or are among those who truly live for the sensory) that they're oblivious or truly forgetful of anything - they probably just opt for the most 'pleasant' road of the choices they see available to them.

Or the sx element; though I can't speak for sx-dom, I can at least say that for myself I often just decide all of it is pointless -- so it's not that I 'forget' any theoretical wish that might be present, but I decide I can't figure out how to address it or with a combo of experience I realize perhaps I'm not cut out for it anyway (or perhaps don't really want it...or what I might want is very unlikely to exist at all) , or any number of things, so I 'let it go' and focus on other things. Vs dwell in a mire of thought that I get nowhere with anyway. So for me at least I think what appears to be externally 'forgetting' is internally more choosing to not focus on it / choosing to go in life directions where I do have more control and that is psychologically more 'helpful' and positive for me. (Unlike a 4 who theoretically I've been told will choose to remain in those negative places - even if it's forever - vs choose to look in a different direction)

Too, tied to sx and intimacy, I think when the merging is present it is intoxicating, it is life itself; but the absence is the notable opposite. If one becomes 'used' to the absence, it's relatively easy to 'forget' - or rather, not focus or dwell. Redirect to other avenues in life. The dwelling makes reappearances, but I'm guessing it happens less often for sx-aux, and more often for sx-dom. I dwelled on this a LOOOOTTTT when younger. I've in more recent years started to not dwell because ... well, there is little point anymore. So any 'forgetting' for me is tied to a combo of learned apathy / resignation, and redirection.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

Disclaimer - I don't know a huge amount about how 9's are 'supposed' to be and what is 'supposed' to make them tick.

I am wondering if 'self forgetting' and absent is being taken too literally. I suppose from the external observer that could be the easiest way to describe it? Maybe it 100% appears to be the case? I would say though that at least for me, there's no forgetting, there is just typically a lot of selection being done to just focus on something more positive or enjoyable, since everything else is completely out of ones' control (many things, that is), or nothing I can say or do will change the nature of any of it -- whether the world at large, whether I've determined the nature of the relationship is such that it IS and won't be changing so I either need to accept it or effectively leave it [I'd imagine many 9's might not have the courage to leave it? Or would rationalize to stay simply because they know (or it very well might be true) that the grass won't be greener anywhere else and some semblance of the same sort of issue would arise whomever they are with -- see, all kinds of rationalizations could occur even if the 'truth' is leaving would be better]. And so on.

The sp 9 who might be more susceptible to overeating, drugs, alcoholism, and the like - well I highly doubt (unless they're not very bright, or are among those who truly live for the sensory) that they're oblivious or truly forgetful of anything - they probably just opt for the most 'pleasant' road of the choices they see available to them.

Or the sx element; though I can't speak for sx-dom, I can at least say that for myself I often just decide all of it is pointless -- so it's not that I 'forget' any theoretical wish that might be present, but I decide I can't figure out how to address it or with a combo of experience I realize perhaps I'm not cut out for it anyway (or perhaps don't really want it...or what I might want is very unlikely to exist at all) , or any number of things, so I 'let it go' and focus on other things. Vs dwell in a mire of thought that I get nowhere with anyway. So for me at least I think what appears to be externally 'forgetting' is internally more choosing to not focus on it / choosing to go in life directions where I do have more control and that is psychologically more 'helpful' and positive for me. (Unlike a 4 who theoretically I've been told will choose to remain in those negative places - even if it's forever - vs choose to look in a different direction)

Too, tied to sx and intimacy, I think when the merging is present it is intoxicating, it is life itself; but the absence is the notable opposite. If one becomes 'used' to the absence, it's relatively easy to 'forget' - or rather, not focus or dwell. Redirect to other avenues in life. The dwelling makes reappearances, but I'm guessing it happens less often for sx-aux, and more often for sx-dom. I dwelled on this a LOOOOTTTT when younger. I've in more recent years started to not dwell because ... well, there is little point anymore. So any 'forgetting' for me is tied to a combo of learned apathy / resignation, and redirection.

The Enneagram is really built on the concept of self-forgetting, in all 9 types. We all feel that we are missing something in a sense, and in order to have a sense of fullness of being, our focus goes to that which we think will fill this hole. Type 9, however, does not have a specific area of focus in the way that the other types do, and that is why it is at the top of the Enneagram symbol.

In order to understand the types individually, you have to understand the structure of the symbol, to some extent. Types 4 and 5 at the bottom of the symbol consciously suffer most. They both feel painfully alien to the world. I guess you could say that they most acutely feel the pain of this "hole" in being. In order to achieve this fullness of being, type 4 seeks happiness through pain, and type 5 seeks wholeness through isolation (Naranjo in Ennea-type Structures: Self-Analysis for the Seeker). Both types coil into themselves, differentiating oneself from the world and people around them.

Type 9, contrarily, sits atop the symbol dead center and subsequently can be said to suffer the least (consciously). Instead of coiling into oneself like types 4 and 5, type 9 over-adjusts to the external and has a sort of psychological inertia; an unconsciousness of unconsciousness. This avoiding looking inward is in essence the self-forgetting nature of type 9.

Beyond that, in combination with the instincts, the passions/fixations will have a direct relationship with the primary instinct and this is where the ego will get hung up, and the resulting persona will emerge.

Therefore, it seems to me that a 9 would be indolent with regard to their primary instinct, which could at times make them look opposite their primary instinct, or at least make them look inert/resigned with regard to it.

I am by no means an expert on this stuff (although I truly wish to be and am working toward that), and in my efforts to strip my knowledge back to the bare bones and start over, I really only have a decent background from Naranjo's perspective thus far. I have several more books in a stack that I intend to read, but this is just a little hole in understanding that I was hoping to bridge before moving forward.

 

[Luminous]

I guess I struggle with the idea of self forgetting. It may be that, with romantic type relationships, I don't see it as forgetting, but rather a natural taking on of the other person. They are important to me, so it's still me? It's me taking them on. That may only be a intellectual reframing so that I don't feel crappy about it. lol

The sx and 9 soften each other. Being a 9, maybe the whole 952 - the sanctuary, I'm a safe place in being caring, fairly nonjudgmental, kind, loving, and with sx, I can give a lot, and give intensely, focus intensely on the person. It seems I have a talent for making people feel safe and loved and for helping them grow. When it comes to it, I've sometimes found myself being accepting of things that don't make me happy. How much of this is healthy compromise and how much is unhealthy self forgetting? I don't know. I love ferociously when I find that special person and their happiness and interests and well-being become, to some extent, more important than my own.

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Or the sx element; though I can't speak for sx-dom, I can at least say that for myself I often just decide all of it is pointless -- so it's not that I 'forget' any theoretical wish that might be present, but I decide I can't figure out how to address it or with a combo of experience I realize perhaps I'm not cut out for it anyway (or perhaps don't really want it...or what I might want is very unlikely to exist at all) , or any number of things, so I 'let it go' and focus on other things. Vs dwell in a mire of thought that I get nowhere with anyway. So for me at least I think what appears to be externally 'forgetting' is internally more choosing to not focus on it / choosing to go in life directions where I do have more control and that is psychologically more 'helpful' and positive for me. (Unlike a 4 who theoretically I've been told will choose to remain in those negative places - even if it's forever - vs choose to look in a different direction)

Too, tied to sx and intimacy, I think when the merging is present it is intoxicating, it is life itself; but the absence is the notable opposite. If one becomes 'used' to the absence, it's relatively easy to 'forget' - or rather, not focus or dwell. Redirect to other avenues in life. The dwelling makes reappearances, but I'm guessing it happens less often for sx-aux, and more often for sx-dom. I dwelled on this a LOOOOTTTT when younger. I've in more recent years started to not dwell because ... well, there is little point anymore. So any 'forgetting' for me is tied to a combo of learned apathy / resignation, and redirection.

This is foreign to me. I can't let it go, even if I think it's pointless. I can't not focus or dwell. The hunger is there and my stomach growls.

 

[cascadeco]

This is foreign to me. I can't let it go, even if I think it's pointless. I can't not focus or dwell. The hunger is there and my stomach growls.

I can see that. I've probably never experienced it in the same way as you, but I do know that it was stronger years ago. I've kind of given up. Maybe age/hormones plays into it; I don't know. It's easier just trying to focus elsewhere. I can't even conceptualize it even being possible for me at this point, if I'm honest. Chemistry/passion/connection plus love/friendship/acceptance? Meh.

Sometimes I get excited but I never really encounter anyone anymore who even has the potential to spark that, so... meh. lol. Also I have not experienced intimacy for *years*, so it's essentially something I can relatively easily 'meh' these days... the whole getting used to absence, etc. It might be relevant to note that if I'm in the midst of a situation where intimacy is possible, I often can't think of anything BUT that (or the lack of, as the case may be) - though, I don't have any illusion that it's at the same perhaps all-consuming 'level' of an sx-dom. There was a timeframe where I felt starving for it... but one kind of plateaus over that point at a certain point.