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[Traditional Enneagram] Why do people mistype as 4 Sx when the descriptions sound so awful?

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Peter Deadpan

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It's the most common mistype, and in my opinion the most unappealing type to be. Jealous. Angry. Competitive. Insecure. Dramatic. Emotionally unstable. Hot and cold..... etc etc etc.

So why do people so willingly type as sexual 4? Why would one want to claim all of those if they didn't have to?
 

Novella

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I have no answer for that. I understand intrinsically, how it feels to be misunderstood. Meh, XX years of this carry on and I just grow stronger. Try and do the same. It's not worth the energy.
 

Amberiat

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Low self-esteem, self-hatred?

Though before you get to the core of it, 4s are prepped up to be super unique snowflakes who are all kinds of magic and misunderstood because they're sooooo special. I suspect the majority of the mistypes don't even get to the negative traits you've listed there and barely scratch the surface before they delude themselves into thinking "that is totally me!".

We all know how the snowflake syndrome works in typology cough muh INFJ/INFP cough, and this extends to enneagram to varying degrees as well.
 

Chad of the OttomanEmpire

Give me a fourth dot.
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Because I have mistyped this way, this certainly deserves my answer.

And first let me start by saying you are right: Who would want to be sx4? In fact, who would want to be a 4 at all? (sorry 4s) That was my actual thought process on this matter for many years. I thought 4 was, like, the worst thing anyone could ever possibly be. It totally grossed me out--all whiny and envious and dramatic and ingrown and self-absorbed and pretentious and, well, pathetic.

It DISGUSTED me that I saw so much of myself in this type and that so many other people (my family and peers) seemed to think I was a 4 as well.

HORRIFIED me.

I thought it was foolish and humiliating. And yet, so very much like me.

Choosing to ignore that niggling feeling you get when you KNOW someone is talking about you, I proceeded to go for about 14 years without declaring a type claiming I had NO IDEA what type I could possibly be.

Then on another forum everyone tried to tell me that those who don't know their type are 6s, so I typed that way for about 18 months. It would be fair to say that I actually tried to brainwash myself into being a 6. And it still didn't work. The whole thing came down around me when I realized that other types explained me a lot better.

So, because--for the 15 years this tale covers--everyone had basically put Type 8 on this ultra high shelf that a metaphorical shorty like me couldn't reach...well, 4 was just the only thing left that made sense. I was still humiliated by it, but I had grown over the years. I was now big enough to accept my own defeat. (Also it didn't hurt that people seemed to worship 4s on the internet...like a fairy that magically made every negative quality you've ever had turn positive.)

I had already figured out I was sx-first (believe me, I wasn't happy about that either--sx was the last thing I ever thought I could be, and I didn't like typing that way. I didn't like being perceived as one of those people going on about how magnetic and attractive and INTENSE they are. But the understanding and liberation that typing as SX brought me was another truth I couldn't deny).

So, I didn't have much choice BUT to type as sx 4 at that point.

That was when I first came here. It was around the same time that I purchased a shit ton of books and started reading. (I literally bought them so I could out-argue people who were still DEMANDING that I be a 6.) Deeper reading yielded more accurate results. I was happy to change my type and begin the very real business of actual inner work.

I regret nothing (except the way those assholes treated me re: Type 6, but that's a rant for later). I'm not ashamed of my typing mistake. I wish it didn't have to be so typically American and moronically predictable that I would type that way, but it was necessary for a deeper understanding of both myself and the types.

So, that's a quick sketch of exactly how it happened.

tl;dr: It was because no one believes me about my real type, and 4 fits me painfully well, and I had already worked out I was sx-first...so I basically had no choice.

PS. Also I don't think Type 4 sucks anymore. Not even sx4. I have developed a healthy appreciation of it. Like I said, I grew in knowledge and wisdom.

PPS. Also the sx4 descriptions DO explain a fair amount about me--hatefulness, angry envy, competition, insecurities about my own desirability, obsessions, acts of revenge, over-the-top emotional vomit at times. I own that. And I don't think it's nearly as bad as any one of the 8 descriptions on any single day ever (and often, 8s themselves).

PPPS. I hope that was a serious question and not something else. I treated it seriously loool.
 

Venus Rose

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I don't think sexual 4 profiles apply to everyone...so I would be careful with framing the subtype itself as "competitive, dramatic, angry" etc.

I don't know whether or not people mistype...just that I see people as being honest usually...and I haven't personally encountered many who are mistyping purposefully, to try to look like another type...etc.
 

Peter Deadpan

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I don't think sexual 4 profiles apply to everyone..so I would be careful with framing the subtype itself as "competitive, dramatic, angry" etc.

I don't know whether or not people mistype...just that I see people as being honest usually...and I haven't personally encountered many who are mistyping purposefully, to try to look like another type...etc.

You're right. They only apply to the sexual 4.

For all intents and purposes, this thread will be referring to sexual 4s in the average to low health levels. Also, I was by no means summarizing the type in those few words.

If you don't personally relate to those descriptors though, then you probably are either not being honest with yourself, or are not a sexual 4.
 

Venus Rose

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You're right. They only apply to the sexual 4.

For all intents and purposes, this thread will be referring to sexual 4s in the average to low health levels. Also, I was by no means summarizing the type in those few words.

If you don't personally relate to those descriptors though, then you probably are either not being honest with yourself, or are not a sexual 4.

That is what I take an issue with. You presume to know people better...? That they are lying to themselves based on a single description that I have yet to see apply naturally and easily to the sx 4s I have met? That they are lying to themselves despite who they think they are, or who people who know them think they are?

Competition for instance is defined thus:
.
relating to or characterized by competition.
ruthless, merciless, aggressive, fierce; More

I am, for instance, not those things. For me personally those things are directly in conflict with se PoLR. A description can not be error free (say something might apply to 90% of the population, with 10% margin of error) but I have yet to see it - exactly what it says on the sx 4 profile - apply directly to sx 4s. And by direct I mean when it says “competitive” it means the person is competitive; not some roundabout way of trying to justify it through saying you have repressed it or something. That the description should speak for itself.

It is arrogant and mean to try to force (...through force, charm, manipulation) something to be true even when reality might at times resist.

It’s just a profile naranjo came up with - and I love his contributions! But I cannot understand what is so wrong with keeping an open mind. Enneagram is esoteric, there’s always things to find out, new ways of looking at something, etc.
 

Peter Deadpan

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That is what I take an issue with. You presume to know people better...? That they are lying to themselves based on a single description that I have yet to see apply naturally and easily to the sx 4s I have met? That they are lying to themselves despite who they think they are, or who people who know them think they are?

Competition for instance is defined thus:
.
relating to or characterized by competition.
ruthless, merciless, aggressive, fierce; More

I am, for instance, not those things. For me personally those things are directly in conflict with se PoLR. A description can not be error free (say something might apply to 90% of the population, with 10% margin of error) but I have yet to see it - exactly what it says on the sx 4 profile - apply directly to sx 4s. And by direct I mean when it says “competitive” it means the person is competitive; not some roundabout way of trying to justify it through saying you have repressed it or something. That the description should speak for itself.

It is arrogant and mean to try to force (...through force, charm, manipulation) something to be true even when reality might at times resist.

It’s just a profile naranjo came up with - and I love his contributions! But I cannot understand what is so wrong with keeping an open mind. Enneagram is esoteric, there’s always things to find out, new ways of looking at something, etc.

I'm saying that most self-typed sexual 4s are in fact not sexual 4s. Enneatype 4 is probably the most widely misunderstood and misrepresented type of the Enneagram.

Enneatype 4s essentially feels like nothing unless they are constantly individuating from others. 4s are not just "sad, special, defective snowflakes". It is so much more than that.

Descriptions of 4s suck, for the most part, and are actually too universally relatable.
However, this is not the thread for that conversation, so instead I will redirect it back to its intended purpose, which is stated in the original post.
 

Venus Rose

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I'm saying that most self-typed sexual 4s are in fact not sexual 4s. Enneatype 4 is probably the most widely misunderstood and misrepresented type of the Enneagram.
You can see it as you wish I guess. I don't know if that really is the case, as the people I have encountered are happy to be honest.
I haven't interrogated all sx 4s I have come across, even online, to determine whether or not they are that type...but then I haven't encountered a high amount of them to begin with.

Enneatype 4s essentially feels like nothing unless they are constantly individuating from others. 4s are not just "sad, special, defective snowflakes". It is so much more than that.
That's true.

Descriptions of 4s suck, for the most part, and are actually too universally relatable.
However, this is not the thread for that conversation, so instead I will redirect it back to its intended purpose, which is stated in the original post.
All e-types are "universally relatable" to some extent and it seems like it takes some digging to find out your core motivations.
 

Peter Deadpan

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You can see it as you wish I guess. I don't know if that really is the case, as the people I have encountered are happy to be honest.
I haven't interrogated all sx 4s I have come across, even online, to determine whether or not they are that type...but then I haven't encountered a high amount of them to begin with.


That's true.


All e-types are "universally relatable" to some and it seems like it takes some digging to find out your core motivations.

I'm not going to argue with you.
 

Luminous

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That was when I first came here. It was around the same time that I purchased a shit ton of books and started reading. (I literally bought them so I could out-argue people who were still DEMANDING that I be a 6.) Deeper reading yielded more accurate results. I was happy to change my type and begin the very real business of actual inner work.


PPS. Also the sx4 descriptions DO explain a fair amount about me--hatefulness, angry envy, competition, insecurities about my own desirability, obsessions, acts of revenge, over-the-top emotional vomit at times. I own that. And I don't think it's nearly as bad as any one of the 8 descriptions on any single day ever (and often, 8s themselves).

PPPS. I hope that was a serious question and not something else. I treated it seriously loool.

I would love, love, love to know which descriptions or books/resources you like/trust most on this.

You're right. They only apply to the sexual 4.

For all intents and purposes, this thread will be referring to sexual 4s in the average to low health levels. Also, I was by no means summarizing the type in those few words.

If you don't personally relate to those descriptors though, then you probably are either not being honest with yourself, or are not a sexual 4.

Aye, the description from Chestnut's book on 4sx is taken from Narajno and supposedly an attempt at connecting enneagram and the lowest levels of health.





So I am completely sure I am an sx dom. Sx is where I experience the most pain, the area of supreme focus, it's not as easy as the others, even though it's more important in some ways.

And it's been really difficult to figure out my core type. 9? Probably. 4? Could very well be. I relate to so much of what is out there about 4s, but so much of it is supposedly not accurate? It's an inaccurate feedback loop where people who've mistyped as 4s put out new information that causes more people to mistype who put out more inaccurate information... At this point, I feel really discouraged because I would like to settle into a type and look more deeply at it, rather than try to figure out whether it's this one or that one.
 

Peter Deadpan

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Aye, the description from Chestnut's book on 4sx is taken from Narajno and supposedly an attempt at connecting enneagram and the lowest levels of health.


You're cute when you 9. :blush:

But really, I don't wanna get all petty and shitty in this thread. As most people here know, I typed as sexual 4 for awhile, and I honestly still consider it (don't let your ego block you from alternate possibilities). The thing is that 4 Sx never seemed appealing to me, even when I typed as one. And I am not going from one or two or even three descriptions of the type. I read everything I can get my hands on and try to assimilate the info into a grander understanding of the archetype.

I started this thread because I am genuinely curious as to why people who aren't sexual 4s are drawn to the type, in their own words. Although I am drawn to being "different", as apparently most people are :)dry:), I was not drawn to the inferiority/superiority conflict in 4s, and the fiery nature of sexual 4s, and that is because I saw it in myself, to a degree that I am still uncomfortable discussing here, despite my relative openness with all the other ugly bits of myself.
 

Chad of the OttomanEmpire

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I would love, love, love to know which descriptions or books/resources you like/trust most on this.

To be perfectly honest, none. The subtype descriptions capture the emotional timbre of a given archetype, but tell us little about how the core and type actually intersect; they tell us very little about what's really going on "beneath the hood" as it were--motivations, mechanisms, associated triggers, etc. You'd essentially be typing yourself based on adjectives and behaviours, and so I favour a deeper approach. I personally feel the important thing is to look at the fixation of the core type and then the neurosis of the instinct itself, then examine what it means to have that particular intersection of patterns.

Maybe one day there will be an in-depth book on the instincts--either the instincts themselves, or the subtypes. Currently Chestnut's book is the closest we have in terms of "descriptions". Again, however, I disagree with her approach, and strongly suspect that they are cut-and-pasted private translations of Naranjo. I wouldn't know my subtype reading these descriptions--or a lot of people's. It's a good primer as to what the archetypes actually are, but it needs to be understood with care and discernment.

Riso and Hudson have relatively decent blurbs in Wisdom in which they try to describe how the instinct affects the fixation. The Fauvres and Tom Condon have useful bullet-pointed lists based on their research (I like the Fauvres' approach in general which essentially argues what I'm saying in this response). Naranjo's works and lectures themselves say quite a lot. All this stuff is readily accessible online.

But again, I don't agree with typing according to this approach. These archetypes might be good for advanced understanding and a few paragraphs of self-reflection, and I think there's something to them (for more patterns associated with the core, if nothing else), but it can sow a lot more confusion that clarity imo. Just speaking for myself personally, I've gotten a lot more out of just examining my core and instinct and watching how the defenses work, in what areas, and what the reactions are. I referenced sx4 descriptions mainly to demonstrate that there was more than one reason why this typing seemed plausible for me.

I'd say read everything you can from a wide variety of sources and start building your own internal database on it--deciding what's true in your experience and what isn't.
 

mgbradsh

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I'm not sure what my type is, but I can really relate to a lot of the descriptions in this thread of sx4.

When I saw the part about revenge I thought, "Oh, yes, let's talk more about this." And I started tapping my fingers together like Mr. Burns. More aspects than just that obviously, but it really jumped out.

I realize some of the parts of this type are really unattractive, but that makes a lot of sense for me. I have a really ugly side.
 

Maou

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self-awareness of one's own flaws?
 

Peter Deadpan

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I'm not sure what my type is, but I can really relate to a lot of the descriptions in this thread of sx4.

When I saw the part about revenge I thought, "Oh, yes, let's talk more about this." And I started tapping my fingers together like Mr. Burns. More aspects than just that obviously, but it really jumped out.

I realize some of the parts of this type are really unattractive, but that makes a lot of sense for me. I have a really ugly side.

I just wanna throw something out about enneatype 9: 9s are one of the types to have revenge or violent fantasies (a theme for all withdrawn types, in their own way). The thing with 9s is that they are a body/gut (action/doing) type, but their thing is that they are slothful, so they don't actually act on their internal motivations. This is why they can have such rich inner worlds and are the stereotypical fantasy type. If they keep all of their desires to themselves, then they never have to face discord in the external world for their actions.

Just food for thought, I do not know your enneatype.
 

Luminous

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I'm going to copy what I said over in TrueSelf Tritype and IV Test
having melancholy, intense, compassionate, sensitive, introspective, intuitive, deep, find meaning in depth, aesthetic, individualistic, complex for 4, and easy-going, ease, calm, stable, everything will be okay, no worries for 9 means that anyone who has great depth of feeling, has experienced a lot of depression, etc, are not going to pick the 9 cards over 4. There's too much emphasis on feeling, rather than motivation. Peace-seeking is a good one for 9, because it's focused on motivation, rather than feeling. I am likely a 9, but over the course of life, in general (which is how it says to answer the questions), I have not been at ease, calm, stable, had no worries, or an attitude that everything will be okay. Did I want those things? Yes!

I think it would make sense that people who experience a lot of intense emotions, especially negative emotions, would be likely to possibly mistype because it would help to explain it all, and possibly make their pain seem more meaningful. Which is also why it can feel so insulting and dismissive to have it questioned; it's like having their pain questioned, having their experiences denied, having their vulnerability dismissed.
 

Novella

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Amberiat, assumptions abound. You need to review your sign off signature, it's contradicting your message.
 
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