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  1. #51
    幽霊||๏ ᴄʀᴏᴡ / ʀᴀᴠᴇɴ Hexcoder's Avatar
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    I'm definitely not a reactive core. Most outbursts seem dramatic or petty from my point of view. I don't understand it when someone yells at their video game, or their PC for not working, etc. I typically dislike strong expressions of emotions, yelling, etc. and distance myself from those prone to them. I prefer talking calmly, having rational discussion, or taking sensible / level-headed approaches while remaining emotionally controlled. In fact, when emotions are too in the mix I tend to see it as a bias and take a step back and wait until the emotions subside to confront things.

    I think @Yuu 's argument has a limited perspective though (no offense, not attacking you, just pointing out an issue I see within the statements made). "It's better than holding onto it!" Anything can be said to be better than virtually any 2-part comparison, but more than 2 options exist. I don't have those outbursts and I also don't hold onto things for any length of time. That's because I don't need a release to move on. Not having outbursts doesn't mean I hold grudges, etc. Yuu's way isn't inferior perhaps, but it's also not superior...not that superiority was ever claimed.

    Ty btw, it's nice to read about the positives behind methods so different than my own so that I can develop a sense of understanding.

  2. #52
    Insane Visionary Kanra13's Avatar
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    I use to have outbursts all the time cuz I got screamed at growing up all the time. Abuse.

    I'm alot more chill now that things have quieted down. A little impulsive with anger but it's extremely brief and I'm back to a neutral state. Most likely if I'm ever reactive it's because of defending myself from their intense angry energy towards me which makes me overwhelmed and idk how to cope with it. I'm HSP. Or there's too many obstacles in my way of my vision/visions I want to manifest and it annoys me that I can't have my way.

    I'm sure it sounds immature but I wasn't exposed to good environment to develop my emotions nor did I have a mother for emotional support. Likely making me a bit warped.

    But other than those I'm chill. My "reactivity" is defensiveness, or competitiveness and sometimes perfectionism. I have to look good. I detest someone doing alot better than me at something. As it makes me look bad.

    I do seem reactive, but very brief. Yet I'm not so sure I have a reactive type because it doesn't fully fit really. Something is always off and different. And outside of those scenario's I'm remarkably unemotional generally.
    "A life that lives without doing anything is the same as a slow death." - Lelouch Vi Britannia

    Alignment: True Neutral/Chaotic Neutral (Rational Neutral - Rebel Neutral)
    House: Slytherin
    ENTP-Ti / Logical

    9w8, 5w4, 3w4 sx/so

    In theory: the wings create a strong 4ish imprint

    How fascinating the mind is.

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  3. #53
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ixaerus View Post
    You are very much correct. Being 'reactive' in the mundane sense is =/= Enneagram 'Reactivity', though both often correlate and come hand in hand. In Enneagram, being Reactive triad simply means looking for validation (in a sense) that a problem is real- either to validate their own experiences, meaning, and feelings (E4), their own safety, stability, security, and network with others (E6), or to be tough, 'real', have a grip on reality so you can deal with it (E8).


    E4 being also a Withdrawn and Heart triad whose defense mechanism is introjection , it intensifies their emotions- because that is their bias. Seeking meaning, through emotions. So if they don't get it, they try get it in the way they have been doing it to make it 'more real' to themselves- intensifying their emotional experiences, not letting it go.

    In contrast, E6 is a bit of a pingpong, it bounces back and forth- its concerns are not the same as the E4- their concerns as to do with more practical matters of stability and security (and E4 in contrast may seem too 'in-their-head'). Their concerns have to do with the feeling of fear and uncertainty itself- both in online accounts and irl friends, I have observed that the more uncertain they are (of the future, of whatever they are afraid about), the more they 'act out' (aggressively- CP 6, or passive-aggressively- Phobic 6) in some attempt to get things done. 'Things are going wrong, I seem to be the only one to care!' Kind of like the person who throws a fit while doing things because they are just SO FRUSTRATED! It can be confused with the E4 in a way because of the focus on fear and validation and feelings due to them being an Attachment triad (their sense of self is to a degree molded by what they do, and their surroundings), but it is not concerned with identity or personal meaning the way E4 is. In fact, it may be too ignoring of it in order to keep the status quo (think of its fellow Attachment Triad cousin, the E9. But instead of peace, it's more of a Compliant Triad & stability concern). In contrast, E4 might be biased towards listening to itself too much (Withdrawn Triad tendencies) and not much of others or their obligations.
    How do you think these influences would manifest for someone like me with both 4 and 6 but neither as core? I am fairly sure I am 5w6, tritype 514.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #54
    Pyromanic tea Earl Grey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    How do you think these influences would manifest for someone like me with both 4 and 6 but neither as core? I am fairly sure I am 5w6, tritype 514.
    The core motivation would still be #1 as usual, and the type itself takes precedence over its wing.

    AS A WING TO E5 CORE

    4 IN THE TRITYPE
    Non mi snudare senza ragione.
    Non mi impugnare senza valore.
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  5. #55
    Digital ambition Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Rep: I suppose that what I was saying can be interesting and I was thinking about opening a thread about how different socio-economic systems effect the "enneagram lore". However I have concluded that such thread would pretty much be a monologue on my part, since there is a very clear domination of first worlders here and therefore I didn't open it. However if there is interest I suppose people can rep or like and in that case the thread will be opened


    Old rep : if you are triple anything the order does not change that you are specific triple something.

  6. #56
    Eternally Burnt Out RadicalDoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ixaerus View Post
    This is just my personal two cents, I think enneagram is (or at least can be) more innate than learned. For example, between my brother and I, he went 'I must please the environment to get what I want' whereas I went 'I must not bend to get what I want', my brother becoming overly accommodating, self-erasing, pleasing, and passive while I instead became temperamental and aggressive and almost hypersensitive to being 'controlled', even in less overt ways. This is despite being in the very same environment.

    We completely disagree with how things should be dealt with, my brother overly valued peace and sooner chose pacifist methods at the expense of losing his voice and I overly valued autonomy and sooner became more confrontational than ever thinking of mediating first at the expense of being able to actually mediate in situations where mediation is possible. What gets to me is that it seemingly came naturally and we each just thought that our methods were the 'right answer' but could not explain why.
    I agree with this. I think enneagram is probably a good combination of both environment and temperaments/initial tendencies to be honest, though I find that at times some favor one over the other (ie. some people are more easily changed via their environment than others, but then again that can even be related to just a persons internal tendencies).
    - 6w5 1w9 3w4 - sp/so - INTP -
    “My deplorable mania for analysis exhausts me. I doubt everything, even my doubt.” Gustave Flaubert


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  7. #57
    Pyromanic tea Earl Grey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RadicalDoubt View Post
    I agree with this. I think enneagram is probably a good combination of both environment and temperaments/initial tendencies to be honest, though I find that at times some favor one over the other (ie. some people are more easily changed via their environment than others, but then again that can even be related to just a persons internal tendencies).
    The question is if the environment truly shapes the enneatype of the individual, or simply dictates how it manifests itself? There is also the question of what kind of change you particularly mean here- a reactionary adaptation, or a true internal change of the person's enneagram-drives and motivations? Generally speaking, I'd think even the most peaceful 9 explodes sometimes in the right situations, but it still is a 9, if you understand what I mean.
    Non mi snudare senza ragione.
    Non mi impugnare senza valore.
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  8. #58
    Insane Visionary Kanra13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ixaerus View Post
    The question is if the environment truly shapes the enneatype of the individual, or simply dictates how it manifests itself? There is also the question of what kind of change you particularly mean here- a reactionary adaptation, or a true internal change of the person's enneagram-drives and motivations? Generally speaking, I'd think even the most peaceful 9 explodes sometimes in the right situations, but it still is a 9, if you understand what I mean.
    Do we believe, like Mbti, that enneagram type cannot change no matter what we go through or experience? It was my understanding that Mbti was 'Nature' while Enneagram was 'Nurture'. Depending on that nurture, and traumatic experience, it would be that while Mbti would remain the same, Enneagram could very much change... I kinda feel like when we see these things as unchanging and inbred no matter what it understates the power of Trauma. And as a rule, really, enneagram is adaptations really. How we coped growing up.

    But then I suppose it makes sense. I just question about Trauma because with Trauma and without can be a big difference.
    "A life that lives without doing anything is the same as a slow death." - Lelouch Vi Britannia

    Alignment: True Neutral/Chaotic Neutral (Rational Neutral - Rebel Neutral)
    House: Slytherin
    ENTP-Ti / Logical

    9w8, 5w4, 3w4 sx/so

    In theory: the wings create a strong 4ish imprint

    How fascinating the mind is.

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  9. #59
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanra13 View Post
    Do we believe, like Mbti, that enneagram type cannot change no matter what we go through or experience? It was my understanding that Mbti was 'Nature' while Enneagram was 'Nurture'. Depending on that nurture, and traumatic experience, it would be that while Mbti would remain the same, Enneagram could very much change... I kinda feel like when we see these things as unchanging and inbred no matter what it understates the power of Trauma. And as a rule, really, enneagram is adaptations really. How we coped growing up.

    But then I suppose it makes sense. I just question about Trauma because with Trauma and without can be a big difference.
    MBTI is intended to describe only healthy types, meaning that if trauma produces some kind of pathological condition, MBTI cannot account for it, and it may make determining type in that system difficult. I am not sure how this plays out with enneagram.

    These considerations aside, the basic theory of both systems suggests a closer connection between MBTI type and inherent properties (nature), than with enneagram. After all, we speak of cognitive functions, which suggests some relation to how the brain operates on a physiological level. That being said, connections have been observed between brain functioning and a longstanding practice of meditation, so even that can be altered by experience. The strongest evidence involves introversion and extraversion, which have been linked to specific aspects of brain physiology. Weaker evidence shows links to the Big 5 conscientiousness factor. I wouldn't be surprised to see more such connections made as our understanding of the brain improves, but that is pure speculation.

    Enneagram is routinely described as capturing our motivations rather than our cognitive processing. This suggests a greater openness to external influences as we live life and go through different experiences. On the other hand, as @Ixaerus correctly observed, people exposed to the same experiences and situations can react differently. Enneagram, then, may reflect the interaction between nature and nurture: nature provides the toolbox, and nurture informs what we build with it.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  10. #60
    Pyromanic tea Earl Grey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanra13 View Post
    Do we believe, like Mbti, that enneagram type cannot change no matter what we go through or experience? It was my understanding that Mbti was 'Nature' while Enneagram was 'Nurture'. Depending on that nurture, and traumatic experience, it would be that while Mbti would remain the same, Enneagram could very much change... I kinda feel like when we see these things as unchanging and inbred no matter what it understates the power of Trauma. And as a rule, really, enneagram is adaptations really. How we coped growing up.

    But then I suppose it makes sense. I just question about Trauma because with Trauma and without can be a big difference.
    Less a 'belief' and more that we have no conclusive evidence, so this much is speculation. As far as Enneagram goes, there are even writings about Enneagram childhoods influences or conditions that support the growth of someone into that certain, specific enneatype- but people who do not possess those childhoods still grow into their enneatype regardless. My problem with Enneagram possibly being molded to that extent by the external is that it insinuates that it is possible to 'raise' someone 'into' a certain enneagram type. Nothing wrong with that, except there are child-parent enneagram incompatibility/clashes almost as much as MBTI. As a result, I think there is something more innate than that. The changes in presentation is accounted for by the levels of health and points of connection in enneagram so far, and I have not seen evidence otherwise, unless the person was mistyped to begin with. And typing people accurately is another entire can of worms.

    Other than that, more or less the things @Coriolis also said.
    Non mi snudare senza ragione.
    Non mi impugnare senza valore.
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