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[Traditional Enneagram] Enneagram 5 and love...how do you know?

Maou

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How do you know when you are in love? I read 5s feel things more in hindsight, but love is something that is suppose to be a driving force? What is love like for you?
 

Earl Grey

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[ eye emoji ] [MENTION=37565]Exolvuntur[/MENTION], I wonder why you are asking this question?
 

Maou

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[ eye emoji ] [MENTION=37565]Exolvuntur[/MENTION], I wonder why you are asking this question?

Because I wonder if I am capable of loving people, I just haven't been aware of it because I dismiss my emotions too much. I always kinda scoffed at the idea that it was a real emotion, but then I also kinda got envious of how happy other people seemed when in love. Love gives purpose, and I want purpose. If I can love for real, I can have a real purpose. Also sometimes people make me feel things, and I don't know what those things are. Which is why I am trying to learn.
 

Earl Grey

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Because I wonder if I am capable of loving people, I just haven't been aware of it because I dismiss my emotions too much. I always kinda scoffed at the idea that it was a real emotion, but then I also kinda got envious of how happy other people seemed when in love. Love gives purpose, and I want purpose. If I can love for real, I can have a real purpose. Also sometimes people make me feel things, and I don't know what those things are. Which is why I am trying to learn.

Love is less an emotion, I think. But it's also something you can't ignore. Something like liking chocolate. You don't pay attention or ignore necessarily, but it does not change that you love chocolate. To me 'love' happens as good favour, appreciation, respect, all rolled up into one. The emotion of 'love' is just the part that gives the relationship its 'magnetism', that part in the relationship where things are a roller coaster and the like (I would note I am a commonly certified dead, dead, dead sx-last so take this depiction of love with a huge grain of salt. It's how it happens to me personally, I can't speak for others).

Personally, I think it's less the Etype and more the instinctual variant. I notice that in most of my relationships (romantic or not), our love gets shared and shown best when we share the same IV, despite having different Enneagram cores. I think a lot of what gets idealized as love on-screen, in songs and such media tends to be very sx in my opinion- and I do not relate to that.

If I do love someone, however, I will notice in that I will extend my resources (sp) to them, and include them in my activities and social circles (soc). It has nothing to do with me being Enneagram 5, except maybe what kind of resources I share (knowledge or intellectual competency, for example). When I begin giving away (or considering giving away) those, I will know I am positively favouring that person.
 

Maou

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Love is less an emotion, I think. But it's also something you can't ignore. Something like liking chocolate. You don't pay attention or ignore necessarily, but it does not change that you love chocolate. To me 'love' happens as good favour, appreciation, respect, all rolled up into one. The emotion of 'love' is just the part that gives the relationship its 'magnetism', that part in the relationship where things are a roller coaster and the like (I would note I am a commonly certified dead, dead, dead sx-last so take this depiction of love with a huge grain of salt. It's how it happens to me personally, I can't speak for others).

Personally, I think it's less the Etype and more the instinctual variant. I notice that in most of my relationships (romantic or not), our love gets shared and shown best when we share the same IV, despite having different Enneagram cores. I think a lot of what gets idealized as love on-screen, in songs and such media tends to be very sx in my opinion- and I do not relate to that.

If I do love someone, however, I will notice in that I will extend my resources (sp) to them, and include them in my activities and social circles (soc). It has nothing to do with me being Enneagram 5, except maybe what kind of resources I share (knowledge or intellectual competency, for example). When I begin giving away (or considering giving away) those, I will know I am positively favouring that person.

Ah yes, that makes sense. I didn't think to look at IV. I am still not sure what mine are either, but this thread makes me look very sx... lol

Hmmm, this is a lot to think about. Thanks for replying.
 

Earl Grey

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Ah yes, that makes sense. I didn't think to look at IV. I am still not sure what mine are either, but this thread makes me look very sx... lol

Hmmm, this is a lot to think about. Thanks for replying.

Don't mention it. I'd mention that everyone seeks different things in love to begin with, and experience them differently, and have different reasons of seeking love to begin with (if at all). You would, too. This outlook and methodology of mine makes complete sense to me but could seem shallow and dry, and not like 'love' to others.

I'm also interested to see what others would say in this thread.


EDIT: @Exolvuntur and if it's any consolation, everyone feels sx around me due to the sheer sx-blindness I am in comparison. Don't worry.
 
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Luminous

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If I correctly recall, 5 sx dom are quite idealistic and romantic about love. Very focused on *the one*.
 

Earl Grey

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If I correctly recall, 5 sx dom are quite idealistic and romantic about love. Very focused on *the one*.

That is the question. What you mentioned is standard sx, not necessarily E5-related (or not detailed enough that it pertains specifically to sx 5).

sx 5s, how do you tell? How do you idealize? Why? How do you find out you are in love with someone? Do you have parameters for 'the one', and how do you set them? Do the parameters work, or does the sx lend to some flights of spontaneity and unpredictability in the realm of feelings & relationships?
 

Luminous

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Here it is (I am not sure that I like Chestnut's descriptions overall, just as a side note, so I'm interested to see how 5s relate to this):

This is from Beatrice Chestnut's book "The Complete Enneagram: 27 Paths to Greater Self-Knowledge"

Sexual Fives

In the Sexual Five, avarice is expressed through an ongoing search for a connection that will satisfy their need for an experience of the most perfect, safest, and most satisfying (idealized) union. This Five may look like the other two five subtypes on the outside, having all the regular five inhibitions and introversion in the area of relationship, but the sexual five places a special value on one-to-one or intimate connections.

This five has a passion for finding a special person they can connect with deeply, sometimes a person they cannot find or have yet to find. Like the social five, this five also searches for a high ideal, but this five looks for the ideal in the realm of love. This five feels a need to find a high exemplar of absolute love. Like the search for the extraordinary of the social five, the ideal kind of connection this five searches for represents a very high standard. Sexual fives seek something like the ultimate mystical union- an experience of the divine in human relationships. And this can also happen with the search for good friends or a spiritual teacher.

While social and self-preservation fives are more removed from their emotions, the sexual five is intense, romantic, and more emotionally sensitive. This five suffers more, resembles the four more, and has more overt desires. This is the countertype among the fives. It may not be completely obvious from the outside, however- they may seem very much like other fives until you touch their romantic spot and inspire their romantic feelings. While they can appear reserved or laconic on the outside, sexual fives have a vibrant internal life that is highly romantic. There are examples of sexual five artists- like Chopin, who Naranjo notes is the most romantic of the classical composers- who display extreme emotional expressiveness through their artistic creations but are cut off in many ways from others in the everyday world.

Sexual fives live in an inner world filled with ideation, theories, and utopian fantasies about finding unconditional love. They live for a couple's love as a kind of ultimate or ideal experience of connection. However, what they search for represents an idealized form of relationship that may not exist in the human world.

Trust is the basic issue with the sexual five. The name Naranjo ascribes to this subtype is “confidence,” which has a special meaning related to an ability to trust the other, and suggests a search for the person who will be with you no matter what, the partner (or friend) that you can trust with all your secrets. Confidence is the kind of ideal that makes sexual fives very romantic deep inside. They search for an idealized version of love and relationship as a source of meaning in life.

The sexual five's search for a high exemplar of connection is so exacting that it's very hard to pass their test with consistency if you are the person in relationship with them. It's very easy for the sexual five to be disappointed. This subtype has such a great need to trust in the other that the need is not easily satisfied, and so there can be a lot of testing in their relationships.

Fives tend to be a private people, but this five has a great need for intimacy under the right circumstances- if they can find a person they can really trust to love them despite their flaws. This subtype expresses a need to be completely transparent with their partner, and they need their partner to be very open as well- and this ideal of trust and intimacy is not easy to find. Because of this, sexual fives can get very picky about the people they have relationships with, and they can become frustrated when they discover that the other is human. If a partner does not live up to their expectations of transparency and openness, they tend to feel disappointed and- because they have a fear of being hurt by others- to isolate themselves.

Some sexual fives say that their search for an ultimate kind of connection does not only center on relationship with a lover or life partner. One five said he related to the idea of “emotional promiscuity,” saying, “I want ultimate contact with a lot of people,” one at a time. And some fives with this subtype report that although they feel guarded in the face of too much emotional intensity, they have a deep desire for intimacy with a trusted few. One five with this subtype described especially appreciating the experience of “clicking” with someone- the feeling of having chemistry with another person- saying that when he felt this he could become infatuated very quickly.

Although the sexual five may look like a type four, this five is still quit five-ish, so is not likely to be mistaken for a four. And while this subtype is the five countertype and seeks to manifest an ideal of intimacy, it may be hard to discern the difference between this five and the other two fives, as all of the five subtypes experience a need to withdraw. However, this five has a need to find a special relationship that will provide both safety and an ultimate kind of love.
 

Maou

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Here it is (I am not sure that I like Chestnut's descriptions overall, just as a side note, so I'm interested to see how 5s relate to this):

Oh crap, I actually relate to this a lot, but its written from a strange perspective. Ya making me feel more sx that I thought I was now...ahhhhh!

That is kinda what I want, but gave up all hope for a long time ago. I am sure I am still an SP dom, but SX I think has gotten stronger than SO.
 

Phoenix

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Here it is (I am not sure that I like Chestnut's descriptions overall, just as a side note, so I'm interested to see how 5s relate to this):

Beatrice's Type 5 Sx description is how I finally figured out my type - so it's entirely relate-able.

Her nailing it as a "counter-type" is a stroke of genius tbh because that's not something a lot of actual 5's would consider and end up mistyping if they weren't aware of the inherent contradictions present in this archetype.
 

Totenkindly

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I think Naranjo had been calling it a counter-type before Beatrice, but yeah... it's still very useful. There are a number of counter types out there, that seem to not fall into the stereotype for the broad type.
 
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Here it is (I am not sure that I like Chestnut's descriptions overall, just as a side note, so I'm interested to see how 5s relate to this):

Whether I’m a sx 5 or not, this fits me perfectly. Also on the need for intense relationships in general, what’s the point of establishing any kind of relationship if you don’t feel that spark of connection and interest? That feeling that you’ve discovered someone in this vast and often insane universe that understands you and your position in it on some level, whether they’re a friend or more. Quality over quantity indeed.
 

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Whether I’m a sx 5 or not, this fits me perfectly. Also on the need for intense relationships in general, what’s the point of establishing any kind of relationship if you don’t feel that spark of connection and interest? That feeling that you’ve discovered someone in this vast and often insane universe that understands you and your position in it on some level, whether they’re a friend or more. Quality over quantity indeed.

Yeah, compare the 5 description to this:


Makes me feel quite 5-ish.
 
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Yeah, compare the 5 description to this:



Makes me feel quite 5-ish.
Yeah that’s definitely not me. I can get angry with the best of them, but I don’t relate to the competitiveness or the constant arrogant disregard for other’s feelings. I also don’t justify causing suffering in others because I’ve suffered. I related to every aspect of the sx 5 description, however.
 

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Yeah that’s definitely not me. I can get angry with the best of them, but I don’t relate to the competitiveness or the constant arrogant disregard for other’s feelings. I also don’t justify causing suffering in others because I’ve suffered. I related to every aspect of the sx 5 description, however.

I started reading through this and while I relate to some aspects of envy, "winning" and or "feeling superior" to them isn't as much of a priority - though I have a 4-wing so it migh to be an influencing factor. I was a little more envious when younger, but over the years that has been replaced with a core need for deep interpersonal connections based around sharing common interests and mainly intellectual pursuits. I am more likely to feel an intense connection with someone I have had a debate with rather than someone I went out on a date with. There are times when I do want others to suffer, but I default to suppressing that as much as is possible because it's a negative set of emotions that are heavily repressed. 5's are quite strongly directed towards suppressing most emotions. Sx 5's are imo more likely to want positive emotion and as we age we become increasingly dynamic in engaging with our positive emotions as well as wanting them in others.

When I argue something to death, for me, it's about accuracy in whatever my interest or opinion tends to be at that moment. I could have a perspective that's very wrong and if someone else can present me with facts to budge me from that position, I will change my mind fairly easily because it's more likely that I missed something in determining my position. I don't see it as a loss. I don't see the other person as being better than me, just someone who had a more fleshed out perspective that I can draw from and make my own more fleshed out. If it changes my mind, so be it. It just adds more content to what I already know.

If I already know a lot about something and I'm faced with the prospect of becoming a teacher that has to unpack a lot of information for them I tend to default to "I don't have the time or energy for this" and just disengage entirely. Eventually if that person shows growth that I can see from a distance, I will engage with them on that topic and see if I can help them grow in their knowledge as well. Being So second, I tend to create small social groups based on deep "primary" connections with a very carefully selected group of individuals that I seek to put together in a space where they can share and spend time with each other.
 
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I started reading through this and while I relate to some aspects of envy, "winning" and or "feeling superior" to them isn't as much of a priority - though I have a 4-wing so it migh to be an influencing factor. I was a little more envious when younger, but over the years that has been replaced with a core need for deep interpersonal connections based around sharing common interests and mainly intellectual pursuits. I am more likely to feel an intense connection with someone I have had a debate with rather than someone I went out on a date with. There are times when I do want others to suffer, but I default to suppressing that as much as is possible because it's a negative set of emotions that are heavily repressed. 5's are quite strongly directed towards suppressing most emotions. Sx 5's are imo more likely to want positive emotion and as we age we become increasingly dynamic in engaging with our positive emotions as well as wanting them in others.

When I argue something to death, for me, it's about accuracy in whatever my interest or opinion tends to be at that moment. I could have a perspective that's very wrong and if someone else can present me with facts to budge me from that position, I will change my mind fairly easily because it's more likely that I missed something in determining my position. I don't see it as a loss. I don't see the other person as being better than me, just someone who had a more fleshed out perspective that I can draw from and make my own more fleshed out. If it changes my mind, so be it. It just adds more content to what I already know.

If I already know a lot about something and I'm faced with the prospect of becoming a teacher that has to unpack a lot of information for them I tend to default to "I don't have the time or energy for this" and just disengage entirely. Eventually if that person shows growth that I can see from a distance, I will engage with them on that topic and see if I can help them grow in their knowledge as well. Being So second, I tend to create small social groups based on deep "primary" connections with a very carefully selected group of individuals that I seek to put together in a space where they can share and spend time with each other.

So much comes with age- good and bad.

I remember one of the best conversations I’ve ever had was after exiting the campus cafeteria after dinner when I was 20. This guy and I just started talking about astronomy while smoking cigarettes. Two hours and several cigarettes later, I was walking back to my dorm energized by a totally random but deep connection with someone on a subject that fascinates me. It’s so rare to have those kind of experiences.

I relate both to e4 and e5 but something definitely does draw me to believing I’m a five. Perhaps the four explains my hot temper? Otherwise I’m very emotionally reserved irl. I definitely manage my empathy output. It’s very focused on individuals that I’ve felt a solid kinship with.

I’ve definitely had more success engaging my positive side as I’ve aged. I was a bitter and angry young man (as mentioned the anger is still a stubborn facet of my personality) but I could never quite kill that optimism despite a lengthy and concerted effort to do so.

I also type myself INFP so I know some will contest a 5w4 enneagram result.
 

ThoughtBubbles

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Well, speaking from experience (and a personal mission to watch the Observers out there myself lol), I think a lot aren't aware at first. Like it takes significantly longer than average for them to realize their feelings. Or it could be the opposite, where they go into full blown MEGA OBSESSION MODE and hyperfocus on their object of affection.
 

chubber

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How do you know when you are in love? I read 5s feel things more in hindsight, but love is something that is suppose to be a driving force? What is love like for you?

Do you love an object? Like a car, or character in a game or a computer's keyboard, for example.
 

Coriolis

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Do you love an object? Like a car, or character in a game or a computer's keyboard, for example.
I certainly don't. To me, love seems meaningless in the context of inanimate objects.
 
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