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Edward Snowden

What Personality Type is Edward Snowden?

  • ENFP

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  • ENFJ

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  • ENTJ

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  • ISFP

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  • ISFJ

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  • ESFP

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  • ESFJ

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  • ISTP

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  • ESTP

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  • ESTJ

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  • 2w1

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  • 2w3

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  • 3w2

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  • 3w4

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  • 4w3

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  • 4w5

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  • 6w7

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  • 7w6

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  • 7w8

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  • 8w7

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  • 8w9

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  • 9w8

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  • Total voters
    25

violet_crown

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Messages
4,959
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ENTJ
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I guess I just can't see an INTP acting this fast. My dad spent 8 months researching how to organize the bedroom closet for his xSFJ wife. And as far as my mockery can tell, it doesn't affect the outer world much.

Who said it was fast? The project had been ongoing for years, and snowden had been with BAH for even longer. Unless Im missing something there's nothing to suggest that this is something he just up and idd. Also, INTJs aren't exactly known to be so quick on the trigger themselves.
 
A

Anew Leaf

Guest
Who said it was fast? The project had been ongoing for years, and snowden had been with BAH for even longer. Unless Im missing something there's nothing to suggest that this is something he just up and idd. Also, INTJs aren't exactly known to be so quick on the trigger themselves.


Oh just the fact he didn't sit on this info for a billion years making sure ALL the things haven't been discovered, etc.

Also I find a lot of intps just like gathering info into oblivion and have to sort of be poked at to do something with it.

So new argument: he's infp because we are totally about knee jerk reactions to save the world from our soon to be dolphin overlords.
 

Eilonwy

Vulnerability
Joined
Oct 12, 2009
Messages
7,051
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INFJ
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4
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sp/so
So new argument: he's infp because we are totally about knee jerk reactions to save the world from our soon to be dolphin overlords.

No, no, no, no, no! He's INFJ. Don't you see, this is a giant doorslam on the N S of A?
 

Salomé

meh
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My goodness, were his posts really deserving of all of the time and effort you've devoted into such a thorough reply?
I'm flirting with him.

^^^^^See this??? This is what I'm talking about.

Also, would it be trite to say that Je wants to change the world and Ji wants to save it? Cause that pretty much sums up my thoughts on our boy Eddie.
Fi might want to save it. Ti will watch it burn.

Honestly, I think if he's like most INTPs, he thinks his job is over once he let the cat out of the bag.
INTPs have no interest in "saving" people against their will. At this point, I'd say his chief concern is saving himself.

@Moderators, I'd like to report a man who just cleaned his desk.
I had someone do that for me. ;)

I'd like to say I sabotaged things for noble reasons, but in truth I just hate London and hope someone blows it up. Pref. starting with the Palace of Westminster.
v_for_vendetta_guy_fawkes_mask11.jpg
 

Salomé

meh
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Messages
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Who said it was fast? The project had been ongoing for years, and snowden had been with BAH for even longer. Unless Im missing something there's nothing to suggest that this is something he just up and idd. Also, INTJs aren't exactly known to be so quick on the trigger themselves.
Yes. He "observed" for a long time, all the while hoping someone else would make it go away. Taking action himself was a last resort. Very INTP.
 

Azure Flame

Permabanned
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Messages
2,317
MBTI Type
ESTP
Enneagram
8w7
I'd agree with either ISTP or INFJ. INFJ's are all about going balls to the wall to make some political shit come true. ISTP's are all "the pen is mightier than the sword" and shit. in fact, all STP's and NFJ's are revolutionaries to some extent. Usually less so with ISTP and ESTP because we're too busy trying to save our own skin from the turmoil of this world.
 

violet_crown

Active member
Joined
Jun 18, 2009
Messages
4,959
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ENTJ
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Yes. He "observed" for a long time, all the while hoping someone else would make it go away. Taking action himself was a last resort. Very INTP.

My mother was always fond of saying that if Othello had been the protagonist of Hamlet, and Hamlet that of Othello, neither would have been tragedies.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
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Messages
27,230
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sp/sx
His solution to this is a logical one: we change the only variable in this scenario that allows of change: policy. How do we do that in a democracy? By applying public pressure. How do we get the public to care? By informing them a bit, and, if that fails (as it's likely to, given that few people seem to be capable of drawing logical conclusions for themselves), scaring them a bit.
Working out and implementing a logical strategy to effect change? Put this way, he sounds INTJ to me, but I'm still not convinced.

We made the bomb possible. Implementation we leave to lesser beings.
Split the difference.
The difference lies in how important it is to turn possibility into reality. As long as I can keep doing that, I for one don't care if other people want to characterize me as a "lesser being".

But there are ample other clues to his type, if that's your kind of thing. I rely mostly on a gut feeling of being able to recognise one of my own kind. There is a certain ...resonance.
Same here. I rely on a gut feel that someone is, or in this case isn't, my type and then look for evidence to support or refute. There are some potentially INTJ-ish indicators, but so far, the preponderance of evidence argues for INTP.

Snowden thought it through enough to know that absent foreign political backing he'd have to hide in plain sight to stay alive, but he planned no end game. It's just a belief on my part that NTJs think in terms of real world consequence always. Snowden's actions, while ingenious, smacked of a certain naivete. Like by doing the right thing, rolling himself in the flag, and throwing himself on the altar of our better angels he'd make it through.
This was also my first reaction to the situation, and a strong argument for INTP.
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
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Dec 3, 2008
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Well he's been called terrorist and traitor, why not INTP too. It's not the worst slander. Nearly not.

I say his choice of subject matter and the manner in which he expresses it point to cognitive style. He talks hidden mechanisms of the real world and future consequence. He says:

"When you're in positions of privileged access, like a systems administrator for these sort of intelligence community agencies, you're exposed to a lot more information on a broader scale than the average employee, and because of that you SEE things that, uh, may be disturbing, but over the course of a normal person's career, you'd only SEE one or two of these instances. Uh, when you SEE EVERYTHING, you see them on a more frequent basis, and you RECOGNISE that some of these things are actually abuses, and when you talk to people about them..."

See, see, recognise, talk to other people to confirm. (And then get rebuffed and make your own choice.) If he ever anywhere says even one instance of "when you stop and think about it" or "it follows that" or "because of this non-contingent principle we all understand as true", then he's a damn terrorist for sure.


The stuff about whether or not he planned his escape, that can be answered by looking at his messy desk. He may have meticulously planned his escape and had feelers out for asylum well before switching to BAH, but he's also a white boy who's travel history was compiled on the company dime among company people doing company things. Suddenly he's a competent international operator?

If he sought asylum *before* becoming a whistle blower, he'd need some other reason to be accepted. He was being neither persecuted nor threatened before he made himself famous, so what would his grounds for asylum have been? That he was a spy who could spill lots of secrets for you, foreign government? And that's what he wanted?
 

Kalach

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Also, "sort of" - what's with the constant inclusion of "sort of"? That'll be that INTP precision with language, I bet. Sort of.
 

violet_crown

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I say his choice of subject matter and the manner in which he expresses it point to cognitive style. He talks hidden mechanisms of the real world and future consequence. He says:

"When you're in positions of privileged access, like a systems administrator for these sort of intelligence community agencies, you're exposed to a lot more information on a broader scale than the average employee, and because of that you SEE things that, uh, may be disturbing, but over the course of a normal person's career, you'd only SEE one or two of these instances. Uh, when you SEE EVERYTHING, you see them on a more frequent basis, and you RECOGNISE that some of these things are actually abuses, and when you talk to people about them..."

See, see, recognise, talk to other people to confirm. (And then get rebuffed and make your own choice.) If he ever anywhere says even one instance of "when you stop and think about it" or "it follows that" or "because of this non-contingent principle we all understand as true", then he's a damn terrorist for sure.

My take (and I say this in full recognition of my own cognitive biases) is that the emphasis is not so much the seeing as what is seen. I'm not sure where the idea that Ti rests on non-contingent principles comes from, but it doesn't speak to my observations of Ti-doms. Thinking regardless of its attitude is data driven. INTPs, from my understanding of them, are relational databases on legs, which is why they're so definition oriented. Given access to a large enough dataset (the very position Snowden seems to be saying he was in), they are capable of seeing patterns of connectedness not only within that data universe, but elsewhere depending on how knowledgeable the INTP in question is. So if Snowden had access to data from Projects A, B, C, and D when others might have only been siloed into one of those projects (and being a former BAH employee myself, can certainly attest to the possibility), he could connect the dots to see a picture that looked a helluva lot like the US government doing massive, unwarranted data pulls on its own citizens.


If he sought asylum *before* becoming a whistle blower, he'd need some other reason to be accepted. He was being neither persecuted nor threatened before he made himself famous, so what would his grounds for asylum have been? That he was a spy who could spill lots of secrets for you, foreign government? And that's what he wanted?

Again, I'm assuming that anyone that was planning to expose a top secret government program probably planned out how he'd go about it a bit before blowing the thing open. What I'm arguing is that the more tactical focus in his planning on method (e.g., how to extract credible data to provide to the press) rather than strategy (e.g., what long-term political change he meant to effect, and how to ensure the actualization of that aim) says that he was probably a TP rather than a TJ. Obviously, no one is gonna seek asylum if they're just living their lives, but a guy planning to do what he did had beyond compelling reasons to get his ducks in a row. And with the information he had, he had the leverage to make people in high places listen to what he had to say. Even lacking access initially, an NTJ would have seen the necessity of creating that opportunity as just basic due diligence.

If Snowden had wanted to be a martyr, he wouldn't have fled to Hong Kong. Hong Kong in particular is the kind of half-cocked shit that I could except from some technically brilliant, but politically less than astute INTP, but would never buy from an equally brilliant INTJ. At least not at face value.
 

Kalach

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My take (and I say this in full recognition of my own cognitive biases) is that the emphasis is not so much the seeing as what is seen. I'm not sure where the idea that Ti rests on non-contingent principles comes from, but it doesn't speak to my observations of Ti-doms. Thinking regardless of its attitude is data driven. INTPs, from my understanding of them, are relational databases on legs, which is why they're so definition oriented.

Yeah but:

This thinking may be conceived either with concrete or with abstract factors, but always at the decisive points it is orientated by subjective data. Hence, it does not lead from concrete experience back again into objective things, but always to the subjective content, External facts are not the aim and origin of this thinking, although the introvert would often like to make it so appear

Where Jung says "external facts" I'm saying "contingent". The fact they don't get anywhere without data does NOT stop them inventing subjective principles that account for data and calling these principles "objective", or free from feeling (and the outside world). Like when they make definitions rather than usage define the meaning of a word.

Given access to a large enough dataset (the very position Snowden seems to be saying he was in), they are capable of seeing patterns of connectedness not only within that data universe, but elsewhere depending on how knowledgeable the INTP in question is. So if Snowden had access to data from Projects A, B, C, and D when others might have only been siloed into one of those projects (and being a former BAH employee myself, can certainly attest to the possibility), he could connect the dots to see a picture that looked a helluva lot like the US government doing massive, unwarranted data pulls on its own citizens.

Sounds entirely reasonable. But patterns of connectedness--and imma just make this up right now--patterns alone don't say INTP until the person starts making theories out of them. INTP connectedness splits hairs. As in: this thing we are interested in could have its origin in this other thing or process, therefore we need some better, more refined principle that excludes or rises above this other influence before we can properly formulate what the first thing was. Or so I imagine the weirdos to think. It's not like they ever know enough to spell their own processes out. Does Snowball demonstrate that kind of thinking? I don't even know because I can't spot it and the INTPs have no idea how to spell it out like real people so pffft, he doesn't.

Again, I'm assuming that anyone that was planning to expose a top secret government program probably planned out how he'd go about it a bit before blowing the thing open. What I'm arguing is that the more tactical focus in his planning on method (e.g., how to extract credible data to provide to the press) rather than strategy (e.g., what long-term political change he meant to effect, and how to ensure the actualization of that aim) says that he was probably a TP rather than a TJ. Obviously, no one is gonna seek asylum if they're just living their lives, but a guy planning to do what he did had beyond compelling reasons to get his ducks in a row. And with the information he had, he had the leverage to make people in high places listen to what he had to say. Even lacking access initially, an NTJ would have seen the necessity of creating that opportunity as just basic due diligence.

One suggestion is that he got caught out by culture shock. He may have planned it all out, but then when he finally got to Hong Kong, got famous, and started talking to Hong Kong lawyers, their approach to his security scared him. Apparently Hong Kong lawyer culture is very different from American lawyer culture. In HK they tell you everything that can go wrong. They try to scare you. And then everything usually turns out okay. Or so I read someone say.

So he made a dumb white guy mistake while trying to walk an international political high wire.... or maybe there was some other reason for leaving so soon. Dunno.

If Snowden had wanted to be a martyr, he wouldn't have fled to Hong Kong. Hong Kong in particular is the kind of half-cocked shit that I could except from some technically brilliant, but politically less than astute INTP, but would never buy from an equally brilliant INTJ. At least not at face value.

I don't know enough about world politics, but is there any other location he could have come out of the closet and still been able to sit pretty? What other location offers any kind of balance to US interests but doesn't also put him right in the hands of foreign powers? I dunno. Maybe there was a better place to go.
 

violet_crown

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Yeah but:

This thinking may be conceived either with concrete or with abstract factors, but always at the decisive points it is orientated by subjective data. Hence, it does not lead from concrete experience back again into objective things, but always to the subjective content, External facts are not the aim and origin of this thinking, although the introvert would often like to make it so appear

Where Jung says "external facts" I'm saying "contingent". The fact they don't get anywhere without data does NOT stop them inventing subjective principles that account for data and calling these principles "objective", or free from feeling (and the outside world). Like when they make definitions rather than usage define the meaning of a word.



Sounds entirely reasonable. But patterns of connectedness--and imma just make this up right now--patterns alone don't say INTP until the person starts making theories out of them. INTP connectedness splits hairs. As in: this thing we are interested in could have its origin in this other thing or process, therefore we need some better, more refined principle that excludes or rises above this other influence before we can properly formulate what the first thing was. Or so I imagine the weirdos to think. It's not like they ever know enough to spell their own processes out. Does Snowball demonstrate that kind of thinking? I don't even know because I can't spot it and the INTPs have no idea how to spell it out like real people so pffft, he doesn't.

So, in other words:

1) INTPs tend to make shit up
2) What Snowden said was true
3) Therefore, Snowden is not INTP

Gotcha.


I don't know enough about world politics, but is there any other location he could have come out of the closet and still been able to sit pretty? What other location offers any kind of balance to US interests but doesn't also put him right in the hands of foreign powers? I dunno. Maybe there was a better place to go.

I suppose I'm just jaded. I would look at a project like PRISM, see the players involved, and ask myself what I could reasonably hope to accomplish by exposing it. You point at the man behind the curtain, and he's just gonna end up getting thicker drapes. If I felt so deeply opposed to what I was doing, I'd just opt out, I guess. That's Inferior Fi talking, though. I suppose my question is does having Fi in the tertiary position make that big of a difference? If so, then there's more daylight between myself and my introverted counterparts than I'd guessed up until now. I just had always assumed that when I saw one of you make an effectively meaningless gesture, it was because I wasn't in on the joke, not that you actually thought it made a difference to that one starfish.
 

Kalach

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So, in other words:

1) INTPs tend to make shit up
2) What Snowden said was true
3) Therefore, Snowden is not INTP

Gotcha.

They refine shit up. But what he said doesn't appear to include any refining words. I don't hear him speaking like an INTP. Therefore, not an INTP.

(Bonus hidden premise: my visceral reaction to suggestions he could be one - there's just something untrue about the thought - which I probably still feeeel, but I'd have to watch the video again)

I suppose I'm just jaded. I would look at a project like PRISM, see the players involved, and ask myself what I could reasonably hope to accomplish by exposing it. You point at the man behind the curtain, and he's just gonna end up getting thicker drapes. If I felt so deeply opposed to what I was doing, I'd just opt out, I guess. That's Inferior Fi talking, though. I suppose my question is does having Fi in the tertiary position make that big of a difference? If so, then there's more daylight between myself and my introverted counterparts than I'd guessed up until now. I just had always assumed that when I saw one of you make an effectively meaningless gesture, it was because I wasn't in on the joke, not that you actually thought it made a difference to that one starfish.

He wasn't even middle management. Yet he had all this access. The gesture rebalances the universe.
 

Salomé

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Sometimes seeing is just, you know, seeing, like with your eyes, not some spooky Ni BS.

He saw some stuff that he recognised was illegal and some other stuff that probably should be.
He told someone.
End of story.
They refine shit up. But what he said doesn't appear to include any refining words. I don't hear him speaking like an INTP. Therefore, not an INTP.

(Bonus hidden premise: my visceral reaction to suggestions he could be one - there's just something untrue about the thought - which I probably still feeeel, but I'd have to watch the video again)
It's a pity you can't refine your own shit up.

It's not like they ever know enough to spell their own processes out. Does Snowball demonstrate that kind of thinking? I don't even know because I can't spot it and the INTPs have no idea how to spell it out like real people so pffft, he doesn't.
:laugh: Right. We're the ones who don't know how to spell things out but instead rely on visceral reactions and convictions that appear fully formed from the ether without any supporting evidence or reasoning.

Here's an INTJ-flavoured "whistle-blower" for you. Note the self-aggrandisement. The apocalyptic visions. The paranoia. The verbosity. The inability to communicate like a human being. The dogmatism. The contingency planning! The follow through.
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
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Sometimes seeing is just, you know, seeing, like with your eyes, not some spooky Ni BS.

He saw some stuff that he recognised was illegal and some other stuff that probably should be.
He told someone.
End of story.
It's a pity you can't refine your own shit up.


:laugh: Right. We're the ones who don't know how to spell things out but instead rely on visceral reactions and convictions that appear fully formed from the ether without any supporting evidence or reasoning.

Here's an INTJ-flavoured "whistle-blower" for you. Note the self-aggrandisement. The apocalyptic visions. The paranoia. The verbosity. The inability to communicate like a human being. The dogmatism. The contingency planning! The follow through.

I hope I don't have to take this as demonstration of the INTP positive action approach. The statement of what would constitute a definitive typing still hasn't appeared. And yet this INTP Snowden has been seeing things and acting? Apparently he recognizes something was illegal and was able to make claims. Probably had a clean desk too.
 
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