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Thread: Black Panther

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atomic Fiend View Post
    Come on Disney, you can do better then that. 1 Million Donated to the Boys And Girls club, is essentially a drop in the ocean for this films earnings alone.
    Yeah, this whole Black Panther movie is a real mixed bag for me.

    GOOD THINGS
    1) Super hero movie directed by somebody with exponentially more talent than Zak Snyder.
    2) Actually, truly, Afrocentric
    3) Mainstream cultural support/excitement signs of an America I'd like to see.

    BAD THINGS
    1) Come on, it's just a comic book movie.
    2) Yes, let's make the world a better place by giving Disney our money.

    I'm not going to see it, but that's just because I'm not into comic book movies. But, maybe I'll rewatch The Black Panthers: Vanguard of the Revolution doc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital Lion View Post
    First thought: It must really suck to have less d*** than a 2 month old fetus and be eternally, obsessive-compulsively driven by the resultant soul-encompassing psychic rage, angst and self-loathing in the most painfully obvious ways. Thanks Patriarchy (and your bastard son Unearned Privilege)! :hi:

    Second thought: Regardless of its flaws (real or imagined), Black Panther has significant cultural resonance, and particularly for a certain segment of the population. The end./
    The Black Panther is a celebration.

    Black Panther: a groundbreaking celebration of black culture - Vox

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    Since the Black Panther is an afrocentric "celebration" of black culture, I decided to ask someone of black heritage about the movie:

    He wrote:
    i have no intentions of seeing it. i never cared for black panther.
    as a character. even in the comics.

    I wrote:
    So he's not a symbol of anything for you

    He wrote:
    a symbol?
    oh no superhero is a symbol of anything for me.

    --
    It leads me to wonder how common this point-of-view really is.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    And...? So what? The fuck does it have to do with you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    Since the Black Panther is an afrocentric "celebration" of black culture, I decided to ask someone of black heritage about the movie:

    He wrote:
    i have no intentions of seeing it. i never cared for black panther.
    as a character. even in the comics.

    I wrote:
    So he's not a symbol of anything for you

    He wrote:
    a symbol?
    oh no superhero is a symbol of anything for me.

    --
    It leads me to wonder how common this point-of-view really is.
    1.) WHY ARE YOU PRESSED LIKE A WEEK OLD, STALE ASS PANINI?

    2.) If the movie has no particular significance or resonance for you or anyone else, (including people that just so happen to be black) that's fine. Doesn't mean others must feel the same way. People like you are the same ones that'd give Captain Kirk a backseat blowjob but now somehow recoil at the idea of finding inspiration in a fictional character/world. And white people have had their likenesses reflected on the big screen in imaginative, self-aggrandizing ways since the medium began and yet heaven forbid, those usually subjected to the worst possible caricatures, also get some "self-aggrandizement" in a culture affirming way for all to see. Black people can't even have a fictional fucking kingdom without the most evidently, deeply insecure MFers losing their collective shit. Ridiculous.

  5. #45
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    I want to talk about Black Panther, to try and explain its significance to the uninitiated in relation to films history of portraying African Americans throughout the medium, starting with what is considered the first portrayal of African Americans in a film from 1915 called The Birth of a Nation which is known as one of the most important motion pictures of all time. If you want to know where the foundations of modern narrative filmmaking lie, for better or worse it's in that long silent film. It improved and used to significant dramatic effect filming techniques that would become staples for every film since it's release. While the techniques weren't created in Birth of the Nation, J.W. Griffith and his Cameraman utilized mainstays of filmmaking such as the use of tracking and panning shots, crosscutting and at the time a use of close ups that had been early unheard of giving intimate profiles for viewers to capture emotions on a "characters" face. While the film by present day standards quite boring (It's 3 hours long, and silent) at the time no one had seen anything like it before because prior to that point films tended to look like this.

    The Birth of a Nation is also known as the Clansmen and is called by many the most racist film ever made. It led to resurgence of the Ku Klux Klan (who were inactive at that point since the South Carolina Ku Klux Klan Trials of 1872) as it was used as a recruiting tool and is actually credited for giving them the inspiration to use something that would become the second most recognizable aspect of that organization, the Burning Cross. (The Burning cross actually predates the clan going back even to Medieval times but according to sources it wasn't typically used by the KKK till after it's revival)

    "It is like writing history with lightning, and my only regret is that it is all so terribly true." President Wilson reportedly said after the viewing.

    The Clansmen was first film to have been screened in the White House, way back when Woodrow Wilson was in the office. It was the first movie he had seen, and Wilson himself being not to fond of the negros and having similar ideas of the Reconstruction ate it like candy.

    The film portrayed blacks (no actual African Americans were featured in the film only caucasians in black face) during the reconstruction as cunning and sexually exploitative, raping caucasian women, and trying to dominate the south through force during the reconstruction period, only to be stopped by the heroically portrayed clansmen clad in white and brandishing burning crosses, bring justice to the wicked negros in the south. As absurd and transparent as that sounds now, only a century ago this was viable means to convince millions, (no exaggeration) of people into joining. Only five years later, the clan would hold the south, with some sources stating 4 million members in 1920.

    "African-American audiences openly wept at the film's malicious portrayal of blacks, while Northern white audiences cheered."

    One of the earliest films, a triumph which built the foundations for what would become Hollywood, was by a critics assessment “an elaborate justification for mass murder.” - The Devil Finds Work, James Baldwin

    It's important to bring this up because this was the beginnings of colored portrayals in the United States in films, even before hollywood existed as we would come to know it only a few years after that and to this day. These were the first portrayals of African Americans for better of worse in films, and while it would never be this bad again, in 1929 African Americans would be given roles in films and even allowed to carry films. The first of which was Hearts in Dixie which I haven't seen or heard much about, but immediately following that was Hallelujah! of which my favorite review summarizes the film as such " Hallelujah is a collection of racist stereotypes. There's the simple-minded poor folk with their bad grammar, which could be excused as being somewhat realistic for people who were denied an education. The What An Idiot portrayal of protagonist Zeke is harder to excuse, and the portrayal of Zeke as thinking with his penis and being completely unable to control his urges is even worse. Then there's Zeke's younger sister who thinks a ticking watch has a heartbeat, or the time-honored racist stereotype of blacks gambling with dice. The lack of white people in the movie also rather insidiously suggests that black people are causing their own problems, instead of being oppressed by racism." the trend would continue, Willie Best AKA Sleep n' Eat and Stepin Fetchit would make their livings playing the types of roles that were considered decent by many of the time (far more caucasians than African Americans) decent. Clarence Muse stated in his self published pamphlet, The Dilemma of the Negro Actor that "There are two audiences in America to confront, the white audience with a definite desire for buffoonery and song, and the Negro audience with a desire to see the real elements of Negro life portrayed."

    In 1961 during the civil rights movement admits talks on integration and and voting rights, headway was made in many areas, Sidney Poitier starred in Raisin in the Sun a film based on the play of the same name starring the same cast, it was well received and a damn good film honestly. I'd recommend anyone watch it. This is the turning point, where things slowly start becoming better in film at least. Thankfully it was filmed in black and white.



    Film wasn't created nor did it adapt to darker colors for a near century. There's also particular ways you must light darker skin. This was most brilliantly exemplified in 2016's Moonlight. The skin doesn't disappear into the darkness, it's shown with the same amount of visibility as any other pigmentation.

    I'm gonna skip ahead because there's enough to touch on in this topic to fill an entire PBS or BBC mini series. In the 70s there were a series of Afrocentric movies we'd come to know as Blaxploitation films. Sweet Sweetback's Badasssss Song (Yes, the five s's are a part of the title) despite only receiving limited releases in Atlanta and New York City was a breakout hit, grossing 4.1 million which for a movie that was filmed in 20 days, on budget of $50,000 (a loan from Bill Cosby) and was required viewing for the Black Panther Party (which despite both Black Panther the character and the the party both coming into existence the same year there is no relation between the two. Yes, it's a hell of a coincidence). On a personal level I hate that movie. It's an ugly movie painting an ugly picture of a group of people from an extremely ugly time. Much like The Birth of The Nation galvanized the KKK, and breathed life into hollywood, Sweet Sweetback's Badasssss Song gave new life to black led escapist films we'd come to know as Blaxploitaiton, though Sweet Sweetback's Badasssss Song wasn't a part of it according to Roger Ebert, but it did inspire new wave of that stuff usually airing as B-movies for another feature. The films always featured a shady man of color operating outside of the law to further his own goals usually getting one over one The Man. Hollywood saw profit to be gained in the "Militant black Man fighting injustice" and pounced as hollywood does. Badasssss and Blaxploitation was divisive between the black community of the 1970s.

    The 80s are close enough to where I don't need to explain much. Beverly Hill Cop series was recent enough that you can find a bevy of information on it. The Lethal Weapon Series, and Die Hard which features a black cop who isn't a hot head or a intended as joke. I mean I never cared for how Winston was treated in the Ghostbusters series, or in merchandising for the movie, but he wasn't anymore of a punchline then Ray, Egon and Peter were. It was a lot better for representation in movies then what had been, but no one wants to be the supporting character forever.

    The 90s rolled around, and it is once again recent enough to where I have to assume most of you were present for, it's a period of time I can account for without outside resources in brief because I think most of you were alive, so I'm going to actually forgo all that, and finally, finally, finally get to the point(s) of all of this.

    In over a century of escapism through the movie screen, there hasn't been any fantastical film world that African American audiences could see themselves in without making severe self image alterations in their minds to compensate for racial identity. I remember the iconic Red Letter Media Star Wars Episode 1: The Phantom Menace making a solid point about the Urban Market.



    All of the films noted are dramas, crime thrillers, and comedies.

    There has never been a point in history where Superhero films were as big as they are now, superheroes themselves were quite big in the 60s and during WWII, but they've never translated into film well till the turn of the century with the advent of 20th century Fox's X-men franchise, since the beginning of that wild climb even when Superheroes did feature a black main character, it never was addressed or even mentioned in fact Al Simmons from Spawn, Eric Brooks from Blade, and even Hancock (who has no comic book counterpart) were all characters who were a part of a group of characters I'll call, black by happenstance. Their color neither informed their characters and while yes it's not a bad thing they were black, there was nothing gained or lost from them being so. In fact Blade wasn't even a fucking person. I don't mean that they weren't real, none of these are, I mean in story he didn't act like a human being and even less so then the vampires he faced. Both he and Spawn suffered from this lack of human emotion and any kind of relatability. They were cool to look at, but they were more concepts then actual characters. I remember someone who was actually offended when Cyborg was transplanted from the Teen Titans book to Justice League in 2011, and that he was included in the Justice League film, it's not like there weren't other options for that spot as well.

    Ryan Coogler got handed a shit ton of money to make a movie about a character, and that character wasn't even Black Panther, or Killmonger, it was fictional country of Wakanda. Black Panther himself had already been established in Civil War, so his arc while essential to the film was there to flesh out the country of Wakanda. When people are wearing Dashikis and speaking with a faux wakandian accent, for fun, it's because they don't get to do that under any other circumstance without catching some side eye or comment from someone else regarding race. There are no black people in Lord of the Rings, (Or in fact even derivatives of the tolkien fantasies) And even dressing in a Red Starfleet Uniform will catch glares at a con if you don't indicate you're cosplaying Sisko.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital Lion View Post
    And...? So what? The fuck does it have to do with you?



    1.) WHY ARE YOU PRESSED LIKE A WEEK OLD, STALE ASS PANINI?

    2.) If the movie has no particular significance or resonance for you or anyone else, (including people that just so happen to be black) that's fine. Doesn't mean others must feel the same way. People like you are the same ones that'd give Captain Kirk a backseat blowjob but now somehow recoil at the idea of finding inspiration in a fictional character/world. And white people have had their likenesses reflected on the big screen in imaginative, self-aggrandizing ways since the medium began and yet heaven forbid, those usually subjected to the worst possible caricatures, also get some "self-aggrandizement" in a culture affirming way for all to see. Black people can't even have a fictional fucking kingdom without the most evidently, deeply insecure MFers losing their collective shit. Ridiculous.
    It is natural for children to want to gain inspiration from a comic book character. So far all I, as an adult, have seen is a flying car (antigravity?), a guy talking with a plate for a lip, and the vestiges of neck rings in a slight imitation of Neck ring - Wikipedia. I have seen an African city carved out of the wilderness while everybody pretends that they want to preserve the wilderness. And I have seen an invisible mirage wall around the African city an idea that was obviously stolen from Ayn Rand's novel Atlas Shrugged.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    It is natural for children to want to gain inspiration from a comic book character. So far all I, as an adult,
    ...said the (alleged) adult with the Star Trek animated series avatar, blatantly lacking irony and contextual self-awareness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    have seen is a flying car (antigravity?), a guy talking with a plate for a lip, and the vestiges of neck rings in a slight imitation of Neck ring - Wikipedia. I have seen an African city carved out of the wilderness while everybody pretends that they want to preserve the wilderness.
    To be fair, many mature, emotionally grounded, self-actualized adults with a moderately healthy sense of their own worth and value (without the irrational need to denigrate others due to fears of their own, all encompassing nothingness) saw a 1.) technologically advanced African society built solely on the ingenuity and craftsmanship of its own native peoples, 2.) a confluence of bright, vivid and dynamic cultural representations (mythology, clothing, architecture, music, etc...) taken from a broad spectrum of various indigenous African ethnicities, and 3.) African descended peoples totally and thoroughly comprising the upper echelons of status and power (Royalty, generals, politicians, tech geniuses, spies). That's what I saw, at least. But, again, I'm not blinded by seething existential rage and formative adolescent irresolution (read: daddy didn't hug me enough).

    Here's something interesting: There's a 2,206 post thread on Game of Thrones, the most popular and beloved (and possibly over hyped) cultural zeitgeist influencing series of certainly the past few years (and will no doubt rank highly in "best series of all time" listings). It's been generally well received, but, of course, there are always detractors, including someone special right here in this thread. I took a gander at your (drearily mundane) posting history, and on a thread called "Movies & Shows everyone seems to love so much and you can't understand why!" found one single word post ("Yeah") by you in responding to someone else's mentioning of Game of Thrones. Imagine my utter shock to see such a dispassionate show of restraint and lack of prolonged interest in trivializing and belittling something you yourself conceded was overrated and over hyped. Funny how ostensibly white, Westerosi (read: European) descended sibling fuckers, silver haired dragon riders, truncated forehead big nosed cave dwelling Cro Magnon looking giant MFers, and cannibalistic, ritually facially scarred primitive "wildings (Thenns)" all somehow escaped your heightened interest in and awareness of the "culturally" peculiar. Interesting, that.

    Could be a coincidence, of course...but in all honesty, you just strike me as the type to indulge in rather selective and disproportionately meted outrage. What are the chances I'm wrong about that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    And I have seen an invisible mirage wall around the African city an idea that was obviously stolen from Ayn Rand's novel Atlas Shrugged.
    Whereas Wakanda being conceptually based on Ayn Rand's work is speculative at best (unless you have proof), Gene Roddenberry actually did steal, pardon, find inspiration, from somewhere outside of himself when imagining the show that would branch off into the cartoon series depicted in your avatar.

    When he launched Star Trek in 1966, its high concept (no one called it that) was “Wagon Train to the Stars”: a Western in space. Roddenberry’s model, though, was Gulliver’s Travels: social, political, even philosophical commentary disguised as adventure.
    Gene Roddenberry's Wagon Train to 'Star Trek'

    Tangentially and unrelated, if you were an actual INTP, your trolling game might be more entertaining/tolerable, at least--probably utilizing subversive irony or clever thought provoking witticisms, something. But, alas....
    Likes chickpea liked this post

  8. #48
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    I thought adamanatium was the strongest metal.

    It's a good film because it puts science in a positive light and shows the importance of education. I think the Wakanda prime directive of not sharing advanced technology with the world was the best position; when the world is finally ready and has the maturity and wisdom to accept such knowledge, then you share it.
    Uncle Roger needs to stop picking on Jamie Oliver. I'm sure chili jam is delightful in egg fried rice.

  9. #49
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    It's a good film because it puts science in a positive light and shows the importance of education.
    Hands down.

    I think the Wakanda prime directive of not sharing advanced technology with the world was the best position; when the world is finally ready and has the maturity and wisdom to accept such knowledge, then you share it.
    Yeah, I see a big difference between conscious commitment to walling oneself away from other cultures out of a xenophobic / fearful attitude, versus making prudent assessments and choosing a best time to step forward. I think with Wakanda, there was actually an element of both, and one of the maturity points of the film was having the leads wrestle through a discernment process, determining their complex motivations for remaining withdrawn, and then making an active commitment on when and how to reengage.

    The film didn't really have the real estate to explore the dynamics of how a tech-advanced culture could remain hidden, and whether it was "truly" a Utopia (and I still think the political process of deciding a leader reflects the priorities of the culture... you select the traits you value, so is it any wonder that eventually if you are selecting for physical prowess above moral qualities that what happened in the film would happen?), so it wasn't perfect in that sense, it's going to be a bit simplistic in some respects -- but there were so many good aspects to the film, and it might be one of the most important Marvel films in the angle it took and the call to public service and making changes. Definitely was the most motivating for me in thinking about how I respond in my own life and engage the rest of the world. It also seemed more or less "fair" in not painting things as black and white; even the "villain" had reasons that could be understood and were another approach to resolving perceived injustices.


    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Atomic Fiend View Post
    It seems that suddenly you can only deal with the topic of race, if the race doesn't exist. Like with Bright, or District 9, or Avatar, however as soon as you have the races that have inspired those stories it suddenly becomes, counter intuitively so invalid.
    This is one thing that I liked about Bright -- it added enough distance that we could actually see the racism against orcs, the elitism of the elves, etc, coming out and not feel threatened by it. (And it's why I am dealing with racism in the books I'm working on, with cultures not of this world.)

    But it's sad. Yet it's typical of human beings. When it's took close, we can't deal -- it feels threatening. Plus, then to comment on it isn't just a comment on the movie, it's on real-life situations, and so everything a person says gets scrutinized and is possibly going to be attacked by both fringes. Getting some detachment of content can help people be more willing to examine and discuss...

    [Ignoring a shitload of posts by the resident Dark Tower Apologist. Jaysus. Even the mere existence of this movie apparently triggers spontaneous mental apoplexy in a particular cross-segment of US viewership, leading to the derailment of discussion...]

    Anyway, I am still reading your long lengthier post in the middle, it demands more than a cursory read on my part. And honestly a lot of this is new to me, I'm still learning... I grew up in rural white PA, I'm white, being in Baltimore the last few years is the most exposure to a racially intermingled city I've had in my life, and I know I woefully lack context to discuss much of this stuff intelligently. so forgive me for that, but I'll try.
    Last edited by Totenkindly; 04-02-2018 at 10:18 AM.
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  10. #50
    in dreamland Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totenkindly
    It also seemed more or less "fair" in not painting things as black and white; even the "villain" had reasons that could be understood and were another approach to resolving perceived injustices.
    The film was able to make several messages about the social justice movement because it's perceived as a black film. One subtle message was "stop dribbling that damn ball and study" and another is "violence is not the answer"; both messages would've been much more controversial in a non-black film.
    Uncle Roger needs to stop picking on Jamie Oliver. I'm sure chili jam is delightful in egg fried rice.

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