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Welp, this is almost here, so [MENTION=4660]Julius_Van_Der_Beak[/MENTION] will no longer have to dodge articles or complain about all the pre-hype Thursday it is.
I have no clue how this film / limited series will pan out.
EW really hated it.
IDG really liked it.
IndieWire says it's too long but at least it makes more sense now.
Maybe litmus test is whether you like Synder at all, in terms of his past films.
Edit: Owen Gleiberman (Variety) and Matt Zoller Seitz (RogerEbert) both thought it was art and gave it high reviews. ROFLMAO. (I think Gleiberman has been generally lukewarm on superhero films.)
I thought it was actively broken into 6 pieces, but it looks like one supercut on my phone. Maybe it's broken up on the TV version and/or within the supercut or something.
I'll probably start on it during lunch.
----
This is hilarious.
Rotten Tomato scores:
Man of Steel: 56% (337 reviews)
Batman v Superman: 29% (430 reviews)
Justice League (Whedon): 40% (400 reviews)
Justice League (Snyder): 78% (144 reviews)
Not only is it the highest rank of any DC-related Snyder property, but it's actually a positive Tomatometer so far.
I have watched partway through Chapter 2 at this point.
Needless to say, it's a completely different movie experience.
There is emotional gravitas to everything, especially with the extra "breathing room" in the scenes.
Moments I recall from the Whedon version make more sense and have more emotional impact.
Character motivations (Batman, Cyborg, his dad, Steppenwolf) make more sense.
Steppenwolf feels far more intimidating.
The Justice League heroes (and heck, even the amazons) feel far more epic. (I actually shed some tears during the amazon sequence, despite much of it appearing in the 2017 version.)
The whole "blow up the banking establishment" sequence with Wonder Woman and Ramsay Bolton is better now than anything I saw in "Wonder Woman 1984."
There's still probably 75-80% of film left to go since it is 4 hours long, so maybe there are weaker parts elsewhere. But the takeaway so far:
This is a real vindication so far for Snyder, and this is easily one of the best films he has made -- including MoS and BvS.
This is a real eyesore for Whedon, making him own even more the flop of 2017.
Since Terrio was credited with the screenplay for this as well as "The Rise of Skywalker," it suggests maybe his original scripts were better than thought and puts more of the blame for TROS on Abrams. I can at least say this script does not feel disjointed so far, and actually has a lot of emotional connectivity/coherence, and a lot of space in the sequences. Was the frenetic incoherent jumble of TROS mainly Abrams' fault?
With the 2017 version being "canon" by WB, this makes WB look really bad. At about 20-25% in, I would really like to see where Snyder's vision is going with this Justice League, I'm not inclined to watch anything related to the 2017 version and will never watch that version again.
I have watched partway through Chapter 2 at this point.
Needless to say, it's a completely different movie experience.
There is emotional gravitas to everything, especially with the extra "breathing room" in the scenes.
Moments I recall from the Whedon version make more sense and have more emotional impact.
Character motivations (Batman, Cyborg, his dad, Steppenwolf) make more sense.
Steppenwolf feels far more intimidating.
The Justice League heroes (and heck, even the amazons) feel far more epic. (I actually shed some tears during the amazon sequence, despite much of it appearing in the 2017 version.)
The whole "blow up the banking establishment" sequence with Wonder Woman and Ramsay Bolton is better now than anything I saw in "Wonder Woman 1984."
There's still probably 75-80% of film left to go since it is 4 hours long, so maybe there are weaker parts elsewhere. But the takeaway so far:
Since Terrio was credited with the screenplay for this as well as "The Rise of Skywalker," it suggests maybe his original scripts were better than thought and puts more of the blame for TROS on Abrams. I can at least say this script does not feel disjointed so far, and actually has a lot of emotional connectivity/coherence, and a lot of space in the sequences. Was the frenetic incoherent jumble of TROS mainly Abrams' fault?
I have to note that, yes, about 85% of the film (?) was footage that appeared in the 2017 version. But there was just so much more gravitas to the Snyder version. It's because he gave the scenes time to breathe and he wasn't scared to play them up, let them sit, make them BIG.
Likewise, I will try to be understanding of Whedon in that I am sure he was required to trim 4+ hours of footage to less than 2 hours for a theatrical release. I am sure Snyder would have been required to do the same and at best this would have been an Extended 4K cut or something for home release. So in a way, it all worked out for the best -- because for this story to have gravitas and also for emotional/rational sense, it needed pretty much the full run-time. There's stuff I just criticized in my recent post about 2017 Justice League that is explained a bit better here and becomes acceptable. But I am sure Whedon was just cutting thing to get the run-time under two hours, so... again... typical studio vs creative team problem, where the story the team is telling is too long for what the movie theaters and studios are willing to provide. (It reminds me a bit of Jackson's "King Kong," where at least we got a long film for theatrical even if the home extended version is even better -- but the story was so big and needed space for the emotional aspects, it had to be longer than a normal film.) Unfortunately for Whedon, his version just feels cheesy and shallow in comparison.
I am actually pretty happy with it, moreso than with Man of Steel probably and definitely happier than with BvS. I felt like it was big, epic, larger than life, it was totally the Justice League.
Some notable differences between the two films:
Cyborg is not a side character, he is the main arc character whose journey to acceptance mirrors a lot of what is happening in other small plotlines. His dad also gets more scenes, to build up that relationship.
Notably missing is the Russian family (eyeroll), the "Aquaman sitting on lasso of truth" schtick, and the bit where Barry just has to "save one person" and ends up just doing it until everyone is saved.
Barry is still generally "comic relief" but not such a stereotype, it's toned back and he actually gets even more glorious moments and in fact saves the day at the end pretty heroically.
Darkseid actually shows up significantly in this film. It's really clear he is the big bad, who Steppenwolf is trying to get back in the good graces of because apparently he has fucked up in the past and/or tried to rebel.
Steppenwolf gets his ass handed to him at the end. You just have to see it, it's a "holy shit" sequence. And I have to say, when Supes shows up, it is actually pretty awesome -- NOT like the total cheese line he made about believing in truth and justice or something from 2017.
There is more space given to Supes coming back, trying to recover his mind, and then trying to track everyone down after once he's himself again. it works a lot better in this film because the time is devoted to making it work.
Wonder Woman is even more badass.
All the scenes -- even the ones we already know the footage from -- just feel so much more powerful/big, because of the new context and/or how they're paced.
So much more makes sense, like how Supes' death triggered the mother boxes to call for their master and why things start happening, and also what the mother boxes are and what they do.
Yes, Martian Manhunter is introduced in this film in two scenes, as a character we already have met.
We see a nameless Green Lantern die.
Bruce is not really the mother hen who does everything. It's clear he is driven by guilt over his attempts to kill Superman from the last film, and also he does see the threat and wants to have a team.. but WW pulls more of her weight in getting everyone together. It's more of a combined effort.
it is a four hour film that didn't feel like it was four hours. And I could definitely watch it more times.
Everything is just so more EPIC! The fights feel bigger and more important, the bug guys feel scarier, Steppenwolf is scarier, everything is cooler, and so forth.
it's too bad there will never be any followup with this, at least not in the near future. Not sure how I feel about the end scene (the dusty future) but the main movie could be built upon easily.
I did laugh because there is a scene where there's a knock at Lois' door, and she says who's there, and a familiar voice says, "Martha."
But that is the only allusion to magic moms.
The film didn't stretch to incredulity in the way that BvS did.
I have to note that, yes, about 85% of the film (?) was footage that appeared in the 2017 version. But there was just so much more gravitas to the Snyder version. It's because he gave the scenes time to breathe and he wasn't scared to play them up, let them sit, make them BIG.
Likewise, I will try to be understanding of Whedon in that I am sure he was required to trim 4+ hours of footage to less than 2 hours for a theatrical release. I am sure Snyder would have been required to do the same and at best this would have been an Extended 4K cut or something for home release. So in a way, it all worked out for the best -- because for this story to have gravitas and also for emotional/rational sense, it needed pretty much the full run-time. There's stuff I just criticized in my recent post about 2017 Justice League that is explained a bit better here and becomes acceptable. But I am sure Whedon was just cutting thing to get the run-time under two hours, so... again... typical studio vs creative team problem, where the story the team is telling is too long for what the movie theaters and studios are willing to provide. (It reminds me a bit of Jackson's "King Kong," where at least we got a long film for theatrical even if the home extended version is even better -- but the story was so big and needed space for the emotional aspects, it had to be longer than a normal film.) Unfortunately for Whedon, his version just feels cheesy and shallow in comparison.
I am actually pretty happy with it, moreso than with Man of Steel probably and definitely happier than with BvS. I felt like it was big, epic, larger than life, it was totally the Justice League.
Some notable differences between the two films:
Cyborg is not a side character, he is the main arc character whose journey to acceptance mirrors a lot of what is happening in other small plotlines. His dad also gets more scenes, to build up that relationship.
Notably missing is the Russian family (eyeroll), the "Aquaman sitting on lasso of truth" schtick, and the bit where Barry just has to "save one person" and ends up just doing it until everyone is saved.
Barry is still generally "comic relief" but not such a stereotype, it's toned back and he actually gets even more glorious moments and in fact saves the day at the end pretty heroically.
Darkseid actually shows up significantly in this film. It's really clear he is the big bad, who Steppenwolf is trying to get back in the good graces of because apparently he has fucked up in the past and/or tried to rebel.
Steppenwolf gets his ass handed to him at the end. You just have to see it, it's a "holy shit" sequence. And I have to say, when Supes shows up, it is actually pretty awesome -- NOT like the total cheese line he made about believing in truth and justice or something from 2017.
There is more space given to Supes coming back, trying to recover his mind, and then trying to track everyone down after once he's himself again. it works a lot better in this film because the time is devoted to making it work.
Wonder Woman is even more badass.
All the scenes -- even the ones we already know the footage from -- just feel so much more powerful/big, because of the new context and/or how they're paced.
So much more makes sense, like how Supes' death triggered the mother boxes to call for their master and why things start happening, and also what the mother boxes are and what they do.
Yes, Martian Manhunter is introduced in this film in two scenes, as a character we already have met.
We see a nameless Green Lantern die.
Bruce is not really the mother hen who does everything. It's clear he is driven by guilt over his attempts to kill Superman from the last film, and also he does see the threat and wants to have a team.. but WW pulls more of her weight in getting everyone together. It's more of a combined effort.
it is a four hour film that didn't feel like it was four hours. And I could definitely watch it more times.
Everything is just so more EPIC! The fights feel bigger and more important, the bug guys feel scarier, Steppenwolf is scarier, everything is cooler, and so forth.
HAHAHA!
I did laugh because there is a scene where there's a knock at Lois' door, and she says who's there, and a familiar voice says, "Martha."
But that is the only allusion to magic moms.
The film didn't stretch to incredulity in the way that BvS did.
It's just hard to believe both Rise of Skywalker and Batman Vs. Superman had that dumb shit, and it didn't come from Terrio. It's weird that two terrible blockbusters with the same writer would have the plot turn because MOMS and it wasn't the writer that did it.
Oh, so the dumb thing in Rise of Skywalker was just that they wanted to do something with Carrie Fisher and then when she died they were screwed and didn't have the time/will/ to write some way around it? (Incidentally the Treverrow script didn't have Ren getting redeemed and I believe ended with her becoming Supreme Chancellor of the New Republic... I'm not sure what they would have had to do to make that work but it can't have been as cringe as what they ended up doing. Needless to say, I'd love to get my hands on a copy of that).
It's not the only dumb thing in that movie, but it makes the point where the movie starts being irredeemably dumb.
I have watched partway through Chapter 2 at this point.
Needless to say, it's a completely different movie experience.
There is emotional gravitas to everything, especially with the extra "breathing room" in the scenes.
Moments I recall from the Whedon version make more sense and have more emotional impact.
Character motivations (Batman, Cyborg, his dad, Steppenwolf) make more sense.
Steppenwolf feels far more intimidating.
The Justice League heroes (and heck, even the amazons) feel far more epic. (I actually shed some tears during the amazon sequence, despite much of it appearing in the 2017 version.)
The whole "blow up the banking establishment" sequence with Wonder Woman and Ramsay Bolton is better now than anything I saw in "Wonder Woman 1984."
There's still probably 75-80% of film left to go since it is 4 hours long, so maybe there are weaker parts elsewhere. But the takeaway so far:
This is a real vindication so far for Snyder, and this is easily one of the best films he has made -- including MoS and BvS.
This is a real eyesore for Whedon, making him own even more the flop of 2017.
Since Terrio was credited with the screenplay for this as well as "The Rise of Skywalker," it suggests maybe his original scripts were better than thought and puts more of the blame for TROS on Abrams. I can at least say this script does not feel disjointed so far, and actually has a lot of emotional connectivity/coherence, and a lot of space in the sequences. Was the frenetic incoherent jumble of TROS mainly Abrams' fault?
With the 2017 version being "canon" by WB, this makes WB look really bad. At about 20-25% in, I would really like to see where Snyder's vision is going with this Justice League, I'm not inclined to watch anything related to the 2017 version and will never watch that version again.
I have to note that, yes, about 85% of the film (?) was footage that appeared in the 2017 version. But there was just so much more gravitas to the Snyder version. It's because he gave the scenes time to breathe and he wasn't scared to play them up, let them sit, make them BIG.
Likewise, I will try to be understanding of Whedon in that I am sure he was required to trim 4+ hours of footage to less than 2 hours for a theatrical release. I am sure Snyder would have been required to do the same and at best this would have been an Extended 4K cut or something for home release. So in a way, it all worked out for the best -- because for this story to have gravitas and also for emotional/rational sense, it needed pretty much the full run-time. There's stuff I just criticized in my recent post about 2017 Justice League that is explained a bit better here and becomes acceptable. But I am sure Whedon was just cutting thing to get the run-time under two hours, so... again... typical studio vs creative team problem, where the story the team is telling is too long for what the movie theaters and studios are willing to provide. (It reminds me a bit of Jackson's "King Kong," where at least we got a long film for theatrical even if the home extended version is even better -- but the story was so big and needed space for the emotional aspects, it had to be longer than a normal film.) Unfortunately for Whedon, his version just feels cheesy and shallow in comparison.
I am actually pretty happy with it, moreso than with Man of Steel probably and definitely happier than with BvS. I felt like it was big, epic, larger than life, it was totally the Justice League.
Some notable differences between the two films:
Cyborg is not a side character, he is the main arc character whose journey to acceptance mirrors a lot of what is happening in other small plotlines. His dad also gets more scenes, to build up that relationship.
Notably missing is the Russian family (eyeroll), the "Aquaman sitting on lasso of truth" schtick, and the bit where Barry just has to "save one person" and ends up just doing it until everyone is saved.
Barry is still generally "comic relief" but not such a stereotype, it's toned back and he actually gets even more glorious moments and in fact saves the day at the end pretty heroically.
Darkseid actually shows up significantly in this film. It's really clear he is the big bad, who Steppenwolf is trying to get back in the good graces of because apparently he has fucked up in the past and/or tried to rebel.
Steppenwolf gets his ass handed to him at the end. You just have to see it, it's a "holy shit" sequence. And I have to say, when Supes shows up, it is actually pretty awesome -- NOT like the total cheese line he made about believing in truth and justice or something from 2017.
There is more space given to Supes coming back, trying to recover his mind, and then trying to track everyone down after once he's himself again. it works a lot better in this film because the time is devoted to making it work.
Wonder Woman is even more badass.
All the scenes -- even the ones we already know the footage from -- just feel so much more powerful/big, because of the new context and/or how they're paced.
So much more makes sense, like how Supes' death triggered the mother boxes to call for their master and why things start happening, and also what the mother boxes are and what they do.
Yes, Martian Manhunter is introduced in this film in two scenes, as a character we already have met.
We see a nameless Green Lantern die.
Bruce is not really the mother hen who does everything. It's clear he is driven by guilt over his attempts to kill Superman from the last film, and also he does see the threat and wants to have a team.. but WW pulls more of her weight in getting everyone together. It's more of a combined effort.
it is a four hour film that didn't feel like it was four hours. And I could definitely watch it more times.
Everything is just so more EPIC! The fights feel bigger and more important, the bug guys feel scarier, Steppenwolf is scarier, everything is cooler, and so forth.
it's too bad there will never be any followup with this, at least not in the near future. Not sure how I feel about the end scene (the dusty future) but the main movie could be built upon easily.
HAHAHA!
I did laugh because there is a scene where there's a knock at Lois' door, and she says who's there, and a familiar voice says, "Martha."
But that is the only allusion to magic moms.
The film didn't stretch to incredulity in the way that BvS did.
I had to remember too that this was 2017 before some other films were released. Aquaman here is still not King and hasn't even met Mera until this film, so their interaction is a bit icy.
I think it's entirely epic and basically is unapologetic in its approach unlike the 2017 version that feels forgettable and written by committee. However, then it comes down to whether you appreciate the approach personally.
Snyder also doubled-down on mood and character feelings, whereas Whedon was all about plot efficiency. For example Snyder expands the whole sequence of Amazons firing the warning arrow to Diana to two minutes or more, whereas they just fire it in the Whedon version since it's not essential to the core plot. However, this is one reason why Whedon's version feels so non-epic and bland. Snyder leans way into the "epic" feeling.
Also, people have responses to plot/character elements of Snyder films (for example, with "man of steel," there were lots of "so-and-so should have never done [this]", so I can't vouch for those kinds of reactions. Or reactions to the "future" sequences like the one at the end involving the Joker).
But getting back to DC vs Marvel... This is probably blasphemous since I have been more of a Marvel person, but I might have enjoyed this film more overall than Endgame. I think Marvel's strength is managing to provide a coherent approach across a large number of movies -- they coordinate the world well and provide a solid product. I think the shot of "Avengers Assemble" from Endgame was pretty darn epic. BUt I experienced much more of "Justice LEague" as ongoing epic moments. Like, the "epic" feel is more prevalent, even compared to the earlier two DC films Snyder did. He didn't do this by creating a world with tons of connecting threads like Marvel did across many films, he did it through approach. I mean, style is why Ridley Scott's "Gladiator" feels huge versus other period pieces that were not stylized well. Meanwhile the film doesn't have as many rational gaffs as prior films, so it doesn't distract as much in that regard.
Oh, so the dumb thing in Rise of Skywalker was just that they wanted to do something with Carrie Fisher and then when she died they were screwed and didn't have the time/will/ to write some way around it? (Incidentally the Treverrow script didn't have Ren getting redeemed and I believe ended with her becoming Supreme Chancellor of the New Republic... I'm not sure what they would have had to do to make that work but it can't have been as cringe as what they ended up doing. Needless to say, I'd love to get my hands on a copy of that).
It's not the only dumb thing in that movie, but it makes the point where the movie starts being irredeemably dumb.
I can't really answer that kind of thing, since I have never seen the actual submitted scripts by Terrio.
But this film doesn't suffer nearly the crazy disjointed incoherence approach of TROS and some of the incoherence of the 2017 version. So it makes you wonder how much of it was the director and less the script, since here you actually have two versions to compare to and one is more coherent than the other (2017 is chopping so much of the connecting tissue out) and there are some drastic line changes from one version to another.
I really never got over the fact that Disney wanted to meet its d*mn deadline so much in TROS that they were literally editing the film in the field after each day of shooting. THat is just ridiculous.
I can't really answer that kind of thing, since I have never seen the actual submitted scripts by Terrio.
But this film doesn't suffer nearly the crazy disjointed incoherence approach of TROS and some of the incoherence of the 2017 version. So it makes you wonder how much of it was the director and less the script, since here you actually have two versions to compare to and one is more coherent than the other (2017 is chopping so much of the connecting tissue out) and there are some drastic line changes from one version to another.
I really never got over the fact that Disney wanted to meet its d*mn deadline so much in TROS that they were literally editing the film in the field after each day of shooting. THat is just ridiculous.
Sigh. I figured Ann Sarnoff's comments would reopen this ongoing public battle.
I honestly have no idea (from the outside) what to make of this.
yes, Ray's part was hugely reduced in Whedon's JL 2017. Was it racially motivated? The problem is that WB was demanding he cut the footage in half -- excise TWO HOURS of footage altogether. Setting aside the race of the characters involved, what else was he gonna cut? THe film is called "Justice League" and the plot is about the JL. You also have to track the mother boxes in the plot, so there's a lot of bare-bones stuff you cannot cut. There wasn't anything else to cut in quantity but the Cyborg stuff, including scenes with Joe Morton (Cyborg's dad) and his mom. Note also the Iris scene got cut (she's black, in the film) -- but it's completely unessential to the streamlined plot. So yes, Cyborg is black. But I honestly don't know what he could have cut to meet that insane demand. Was WB being racist, ridiculous, or both in their original demands?
I'm not sure how many minutes the inane Russian settler bit took up. I guess he could have kept the bit with Cyborg going into the Mother boxes, which then necessitates the Flash running around to build up the charge, which means you can pull out the Russian settlers completely since FLash isn't available to save them -- and those minutes can go back to Cyborg -- but is that enough minutes to set up the whole experience of Cyborg in the MB reality? i.e., you get a payoff with no build-up to it.
I think it is documented that WB originally gave Whedon the four hours (maybe in two movies?), then slowly kept taking time away until they were forcing him to jam a four-hour story into two hours. That was their first big crime here. Everything else follows from that. (Snyder walked away as a response to the dual tragedies of his movie being slowly taken away from him, coupled with his daughter's death. And so forth.)
There is no arguing with the fact, though, that the Cyborg bit is close to the heart of the film, and it's almost a sacrilege to have chopped it. No wonder Ray and others were shocked by these cuts. There really was a story there, and Whedon ended up unceremoniously slicing it away. At least Terrence Malick makes great films, even if most of his film is created in post and actors have been shocked at how much time (little or large) they get in his finished work. Whedon is no Malick, though. And basically when you have to cut away 50% of a living thing (when the living thing has already been formed), you're not gonna have a living thing at the end of it.
I definitely am getting the idea that the cast/crew really likes working with Snyder, whatever gripes can be made about his style -- he sounds like a decent and affirming person. Opinions seem to slant a lot more negative about the experience of working with Whedon.
I wish I didn't black out half way through Snyderfest at my friends house. We were gonna watch all 3 uncut versions of all the Superman/Justice league movies.
I wish I didn't black out half way through Snyderfest at my friends house. We were gonna watch all 3 uncut versions of all the Superman/Justice league movies.
This was actually improved greatly upon Justice League. Batman V Superman, though, my goodness.
*encounters superman for the first time (for what reason he was even there at that warehouse is beyond me), superman threatens him, then he responds with "Tell me. Do you bleed?"
*Superman looks at him like "lol, you're weird bro" then flies off*
*They don't see eachother again until they fight at the end of the movie*
Then
*Batman encounters Superman again after Lex urges them to fight eachother*
*"Bruce, please! Let's talk"*
*proceeds to fight *
*Superman: You don't understand!*
*Batman: "I understand!"gets flicked so hard he accidentally lands in the set of Reese Witherspoon film*
*fights for 30 minutes before the magic "M" word name suddenly serves to resolve their conflict*
Thursday it is.
