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Is Star Trek's Federation Fascist?

Doctor Cringelord

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If you look closely, the model ship he breaks is the Enterprise D replica. The saucer is split from the stardrive section. I don't know if it was intentional on the filmmakers' part but it's interesting since the D was destroyed in the previous film after the saucer separated from the stardrive during the warp core breach.
 

Mal12345

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Much nitpicking of Trek is welcome in this thread. I live to nitpick films tv shows. I don't think I'm overthinking it especially when we're discussing a franchise that was designed to make its viewers think. IDIC, y'all.

So it's not just about fascism? I think it's obvious to any trekkie or trekker that Star Trek doesn't know what it is. Originally we saw 1960s idealism, anti-racist themes (which go against certain forms of fascism), pro-democracy, pro-United States of America, pro-freedom, and some humanitarian inclinations. Later variants on Star Trek tended to contradict themselves, overtly stating that sometimes it is better to favor the many or few over the one and then stating it is better to favor the one over the few or many.

Episodes of Star Trek:TNG morally contradicted themselves in various ways. I would have to do some research to recall exactly in what ways, but these are things I noticed even during my first viewing back in the early 1990s.
 
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It seemed to me in TNG at least that Picard was often at all odds with his so called superiors from Starfleet. Who if you really took note seemed to be a bunch of out of touch or blatantly corrupt pricks. I remember on so many occasions Picard would be speaking to admirals and I'd think this guy/gal is a complete a-hole. It seemed often times Picard although striving to uphold the Prime Directive understood that sometimes the universe throws you a set of circumstances that even a comprehensive set of guidelines has no answer to.

Fascist federation? I'm not sure. Clearly running an organization of that size and scope seemed to create a system that at times was a lumbering bureaucracy with leaders who didn't have a firm sense of the big picture. It honestly seemed like a mishmash of political systems.
 

The Cat

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Just, curious, but, how many lights do you see?
 
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Just, curious, but, how many lights do you see?

A year or so before the airing of that episode I had finished reading 1984 in high school. That book totally showed my young mind just how systematically sinister humanity could be. Picard was almost broken there in his Room 101. He almost embraced Big Brother. The answer is four lights. I think...
 

chubber

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I saw this video on youtube:



Interesting argument, but I'm not sure if I agree. I think the Federation can be anything we want to project onto it. Some have argued they're the perfect socialist state, some have argued they're actually libertarian. I can understand why they might appear fascist. It seems like they've adopted a blend the best elements of multiple forms of government.

I thought the following video might be relevant as this guy seems to come to the same conclusion, what works on small pockets of people, to balance things out. I like this approach, because I don't believe in one size fits all. This becomes more and more apparent, the more we grow, or the more people we become in the same area.

 

The Cat

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I always thought it was weird they were so weird about how they treated genetically augmented people...
 

Doctor Cringelord

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I always thought it was weird they were so weird about how they treated genetically augmented people...

In one respect I think Roddenberry and the writers were very wrong in their predictions. They idealize a future where humanity evolves to something without the aid of genetic engineering and the merging of our bodies with technology (except as an aid or tool, in Geordi's case).

I think for better or worse that genetic engineering and cyborgs will become the norm in a couple hundred years' time.

- - - Updated - - -

Just, curious, but, how many lights do you see?

1pyy4c.jpg
 

The Cat

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Hey [MENTION=19700]Anaximander[/MENTION],

What's your thoughts on the similarities between the federation in ST and the Alliance in Firefly?
 

Doctor Cringelord

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Hey [MENTION=19700]Anaximander[/MENTION],

What's your thoughts on the similarities between the federation in ST and the Alliance in Firefly?

I haven't seen it yet. All I know is it's set in a system with multiple stars, which is very fascinating.
 

The Cat

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I haven't seen it yet. All I know is it's set in a system with multiple stars, which is very fascinating.

When you get a chance to check it out, I'd love to read your take upon it.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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Seriously dude?

I even provided a few examples to back my points.

Don't go too INTP on us.

I just meant that we have to consider the effect of post scarcity on the evolution/manifestation of current types of government in a society that sees very little famine. I was going to replace "famine" with "hunger" but I'm not sure that would be accurate.

Sometimes I think Picard is a liar or a naive idealist when he speaks of humanity's evolved sensibilities in ST: First Contact. In the DS9 episode "The Siege of AR558" we see humans may not be so evolved as they like to believe.


FWIW, I never said I agreed with the video I started the thread with, and any argument I've made to suggest support of said video's arguments were made in a devil's advocate sort of way. I can certainly see some elements or evidence to suggest the UFP could be either fascist,capitalist, socialist or libertarian utopia, but that doesn't make it so as we're dealing with a fictional universe. ;)

As others have said, it's such a broadly defined universe over the course of hundreds of episodes and films that it can become a reflection of whatever the viewers and writers wish to see for any given message, because we're ultimately dealing with a science fiction vehicle for morality plays and social commentary on our current state of existence. The fellow who made that video is just as guilty of this in interpreting it through his own bias as any other fan. It becomes what we want it to be. For instance I've seen both left wing progressives and right wing conservatives make arguments for ST as the ideal destination point for civilization were their respective ideologies to be fully realized.

All we can really conclude is that the UFP is quintessentially human.
 

The Cat

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I just meant that we have to consider the effect of post scarcity on the evolution/manifestation of current types of government in a society that sees very little famine. I was going to replace "famine" with "hunger" but I'm not sure that would be accurate.

Sometimes I think Picard is a liar or a naive idealist when he speaks of humanity's evolved sensibilities in ST: First Contact. In the DS9 episode "The Siege of AR558" we see humans may not be so evolved as they like to believe.



GARAK: This isn't the first time I've seen you rush through a meal. You never take the time to savour your food. It seems to be a human characteristic. Look over there. That Talarian is barely halfway through his meal, but his human companion's plate is empty.
BASHIR: Well maybe he and I can have dessert while you and the Talarian to wile away the afternoon.
GARAK: But it is a very interesting sociological phenomenon, don't you think? For generations now, humankind has had more than enough food and yet you go about your eating as if you were afraid someone was going to come along and snatch away your plate.
BASHIR: Garak, why don't you eat for a while and let me talk?
GARAK: Fear of starvation amid plenty. It points to some dark secret hidden in the human soul. A gnawing hunger. perhaps someone should do a study.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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GARAK: This isn't the first time I've seen you rush through a meal. You never take the time to savour your food. It seems to be a human characteristic. Look over there. That Talarian is barely halfway through his meal, but his human companion's plate is empty.
BASHIR: Well maybe he and I can have dessert while you and the Talarian to wile away the afternoon.
GARAK: But it is a very interesting sociological phenomenon, don't you think? For generations now, humankind has had more than enough food and yet you go about your eating as if you were afraid someone was going to come along and snatch away your plate.
BASHIR: Garak, why don't you eat for a while and let me talk?
GARAK: Fear of starvation amid plenty. It points to some dark secret hidden in the human soul. A gnawing hunger. perhaps someone should do a study.

Garak and Quark are both great vehicles for the writers realizing all the flaws of human nature. DS9 was a really daring show in that regard and the other Trek series seem preachy and fake in comparison.

It might be blasphemy but I think Trek without Roddenberry was the best thing to happen to the franchise. JJ Abrams is another story though
 

The Cat

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Cyber Space, the Typology Frontier...these are the post of the Federation thread, its continuing mission....to Rise and boldly go, where no ST thread has gone before.


Engage.
 

Lark

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When you get a chance to check it out, I'd love to read your take upon it.

I'm pretty sure the Alliance is meant to be a future world communist government of Chinese extraction (its not very subtly so).

The implicit critique in the show is of the Alliance as "perfectionist", and specifically "utopian".

The experiment out on the limits of space which leads to the rise of the Reavers, who I always thought were bad impressions of Chaos marines from the 40K mythos, which they attempted to explain in the movie Serenity, was s straight forward update of the Jekyll and Hyde story. Like I really and truly think the writers made a balls of that. I really think they were torn between a 40K style story, a liberal sprinkling of post-modern Nietzsche lite and what it basically was, mad science will make people perfectly good vs mad science makes everyone mad.

There was a ton of commentary on the Firefly show back in the day, I remember some of the commentators who were popular with the US militia scene, like Claire Wolfe, writing about it, a lot of people talked about it being neo-conservative while others pointed to the fact that it was from the same people as wrote Buffy The Vampire Slayer.

It could be a bit more complicated than "confederates in space" but its not a million miles of the mark I would say, the Alliance does not seem that bad so far as sci fi commie futures go.

If you're looking for space fascists they exist, the mirror universe in Star Trek, which I had not realised was as big a part as it turns out of the latest iteration of Star Trek on Netflix, which I dont hate so much as some of them, there's a series of novels from the mirror universe too. There's also the peacekeepers in Farscape, I know the fans resurrected that show but it was never the same, likewise with the series about the survivors of the partial nuclear strike in the US show.

The peacekeepers are totally fascist, I mean way worse than 40K even in their anti-xeno purging and stuff.
 
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