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Westworld (2016)

EJCC

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First episode came out tonight. Pretty astounding. Reminiscent of the great sci-fi of my parents' generation -- Bradbury, Asimov. Raising all the morality questions and existential horror that you would expect.

I can already tell that viewers are going to go crazy making fan theories -- even this early, right after the pilot airs. For example: who is the man in black?

Provide your thoughts on the series below. Discuss.
 

á´…eparted

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I haven't heard anything about it until you mentioned it and subsequently raved about it. Alas, I don't have HBO but I am having a solid Ni moment of "you would love this" which is rare for this sort of thing for me (although it happened with Stranger Things as well. First time in years and I was right about that). I wonder if I could find a way to watch it.
 

EJCC

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[MENTION=20829]Hard[/MENTION] I can't decide if you would like it. You might like it for the same reasons you like SOMA. But it's pretty disturbing. And I know you don't do well with disturbing TV.
 

á´…eparted

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[MENTION=20829]Hard[/MENTION] I can't decide if you would like it. You might like it for the same reasons you like SOMA. But it's pretty disturbing. And I know you don't do well with disturbing TV.

There are some kinds of disturbing I can handle. I read the premise of the show a few minutes ago, and it definitely sounds like something up my alley. I can handle sci-fi disturbing really well.
 

Totenkindly

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I love this show. It's my new favorite show... although that was a hell of a pilot, I wonder if they can keep it up.

I watched the original Westworld on Friday (which I had never seen), to prepare for this. What I got out of that was (1) it was a precursor to Crichton's "Jurassic Park" which honed some of the ideas he had hinted at there but hadn't gone into depth about and (2) it's a property that really could benefit from a remake and/or expansion, because there's a lot of concepts there that just were not deeply explored. Maybe at the time it seemed a big deal, but nowadays much further down the cinematic landscape, I've seen much better.

Anyway, the tone of this show is actually (despite the western theme) creepy as hell. I can't tell whether some of the androids were acting or they tinkered with them graphically, but especially Dolores' father and especially in the last discussion... the way he moved... the way some of them moved? Very eerie. Also of note is the early model we see for a few minutes. How the hell did they do that...?

Great 10-15 minute opening (however long it lasted). I won't say more, but... great setup.

The show is interesting, both as it unfolds and also to a geek like myself (I spent part of my work day troubleshooting stuff, and so I love the geeky troubleshooting scenes here, where we see tech innovations having unintended side effects that have to be figured out and resolved somehow -- which makes it even more interesting, because some of the humans act more robotic and detached as they troubleshoot -- Jeffrey Wright is a standard casting for this, most of his movie characters are in that mold -- and some of the robots seem more emotional and human than the people trying to fix them.) There's some nude sequences but it's all mostly background and doesn't even really feel titillating to be honest. A decent amount of bloodshed too (wow, on that one shootout). A lot of procedural park management stuff -- inter-office politics -- that still manages to seem interesting.

So the big question is what happens when androids have access to, effectively, a subconscious of sorts? What would Jung say? ;)


... the Man in Black was billed as the Gunslinger (the most infamous character from the movie) but, well (big spoilers):


Also, the Milkman:


Anyway... this is so cool. I'm glad to see them trying to do this theme some justice. And yes, the existential horror of it.

 

Totenkindly

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Cool, they got Michelle MacLaren and Neil Marshall to direct an episode each in the first season. (They've both done GoT episodes, but MacLaren's done some Breaking Bad, X-Files, Better Call Saul, etc + Marshall did Dog Soldiers and The Descent as well.)

Talulah Riley supposedly has a cameo. I first noticed her in Inception (where she plays the blonde woman in the bar who is actually Eames). Apparently she's been twice married (and twice divorced) to/from Elon Musk. I wonder if that's a hell of a divorce settlement.

Miranda Otto was supposed to be the Operations head, which I could imagine; but she had to bail due to Homeland, and I think casting Sidse Knudsen is even better; I like how she's a bit older than some of the other park staff, she looks more weathered and formidable and a better personality for the role.
 

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I saw Jonathan Nolan was involved and I immediately had a good feeling about it. It's only on Sky over here, which I don't have. Or need. However good it may be I don't want to spend all my free time watching TV even if there's loads of good series on there.

(I'm sounding bitter, I'm not)
 

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Westworld premiere recap: Season 1, Episode 1 | EW.com

Westworld: The first reviews are all raves | EW.com


-------------------


Anyway, about Nolan -- he has focused a bit in his career on the impact of memory on identity.

Back in "Memento" (which he scripted), we have basically a character (Leonard) who is frozen in time -- he is essentially the person he was the day his long-term memory was crippled. His identity stops at that day (aside from the notes he leaves himself, which amount to snippets without context). he has no way to grow or change. he's stuck in his own Story loop, so to speak, just like the androids in Westworld... or almost like, since it seems that these androids (due to the vagaries of how data is actually "erased" in computer software) have traces of old experiences lurking in their subconscious. But maybe Lenny has that a bit too, as he gets flashes at times of memories that don't gel with his ongoing narrative.

On the opposite end, we see how memory in "The Prestige" (another Nolan script) actually becomes destructive, when two rival magicians suffer a somewhat shared trauma that one cannot let go of (the memory AKA Past controls his Present); everything he does is based off this memory; in this regard, the memory also freezes his story track because he's missing something... forgiveness? elasticity? forgetfulness? acceptance? that would allow him to make choices. He loses volition because the traumatic memory controls his future choices, and he's locked into this path since he can't let go.

In either case, memory -- or the lack of it -- shapes identity and limits choice (although it can also expand choice if utilized as a resource versus a dominating influence).
 

ceecee

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I'm so glad I watched it - I loved it. I'm not familiar with the original Westworld so I will check that out. I like the casting of Ed Harris and Rodrigo Santoro in particular. The show reminded me some of "Inception" but maybe more of "The Prestige". Looking forward to next week.
 

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The original Westworld is a pretty short watch (only about 1:30 hours). It's dramatically a bit flat (well, to me) and is more of "the park is out of control, help!" variety, but Brenner actually carries himself in a way that conveys what he is. It's hard to explain, but he's damned intimidating. There's also a great sequence near the end where his performance seems to become complex in terms of facial expression. I think that last fifteen minutes was my favorite part of the movie, I wish there had been more of that kind of nuance throughout, there's a few other things as well that play off perceptions and assumptions.

James Brolin stars as well, and he looks here like a cross between his son Josh Brolin + Christian Bale. I just never really watched anything in which he was YOUNG, so it was like, "whoa." Kind of like when I saw Martin Sheen (who looks like Charlie Sheen when young) and Lawrence Fishburne in Apocalypse Now. (Fishburne wasn't even a legal adult in that movie, he lied about his age. And hey, he had hair!)
 
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I'm going to watch this, been hyped since I heard who was making it.

FYI, Jonathan Nolan's Person of Interest is also well worth watching for its explorations of AI, identity, morality, politics and the human/machine divide. Brilliant, brilliant sci-fi that CBS strangled and finally killed in season 5. I can't recommend it more highly.
 

EJCC

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I'm going to watch this, been hyped since I heard who was making it.

FYI, Jonathan Nolan's Person of Interest is also well worth watching for its explorations of AI, identity, morality, politics and the human/machine divide. Brilliant, brilliant sci-fi that CBS strangled and finally killed in season 5. I can't recommend it more highly.
I never finished Person of Interest. Used to be obsessed -- basically for all the reasons you described, plus the unlikely (and wonderful) chemistry between the two leads -- but stopped watching when I couldn't watch it live anymore (due to no TV), and never picked it back up again. Maybe that's what I should watch when I'm done binge-watching "Luke Cage"!
 
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I never finished Person of Interest. Used to be obsessed -- basically for all the reasons you described, plus the unlikely (and wonderful) chemistry between the two leads -- but stopped watching when I couldn't watch it live anymore (due to no TV), and never picked it back up again. Maybe that's what I should watch when I'm done binge-watching "Luke Cage"!

Heh, you like Finch and Reese? From season 3 onwards there are some incredibly well-written dialogues between Root and Finch discussing that nature of morality..


and the machine joins in the conversation with its views on human hypocrisy and the context of experience in season 5. It's great work.. and now available on netflix! *plugs*

:D And maybe I'll watch Luke Cage when I finally get over my grudge at netflix geoblocking me from the US site and get a local subscription. Well, it'll probably happen since I'm a huge Jessica Jones fan and am hoping for a cameo.
 

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Person of Interest is one of the shows I most wanted to watch that I didn't.
(I think I made it into the beginning of Season 2 and then got sidetracked.)

Maybe I'll try again at some point. I liked it, I think I was just busy and it was hard to keep up at the time.
 

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Person of Interest is one of the shows I most wanted to watch that I didn't.
(I think I made it into the beginning of Season 2 and then got sidetracked.)

Maybe I'll try again at some point. I liked it, I think I was just busy and it was hard to keep up at the time.

There really are too many shows to watch. VICE news, which is outstanding, is going to be on 5 days a week starting this month on HBO I know I won't have time to watch. I'm curious why it's not on their Viceland channel though.
 

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There really are too many shows to watch. VICE news, which is outstanding, is going to be on 5 days a week starting this month on HBO I know I won't have time to watch. I'm curious why it's not on their Viceland channel though.
God damn it, Golden Age of Television! Why you gotta be like that?
 

Totenkindly

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Yeah, I remember the crap years where TV wasn't worth anything except maybe some of the cartoon networks (triggered by the Simpsonaissance and coming into the mid/late 90's).

I mean, here we are discussing a TV show that has two producers who have worked in movies and TV, an Oscar winner, a guy who's been nominated for four Oscars, and other decently known and accomplished film actors coming back to star on a TV show.
 

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Episode 2.

It's hard to top the pilot, but this episode definitely moves the story along. There's a few revelations (including something about a staff relationship), and more exploration of the trauma being inexplicably experienced by a few of the main androids.

Tallulah Riley shows up in this one -- she's the one who introduces the "good guy" newcomer to Westworld, shows him the dressing room, offers to be with him, etc. I don't remember that actor as well, but I know he was the hacker on House of Cards; I just don't remember if I saw him elsewhere.

Okay, here's something about the show that's different than most: The conflict is internal, not external. To explain, due to the western scenes, most shows would rely on gunfights and violence, etc., as a major plotpoint. But here there's no suspense to these things; humans always beat androids (because androids are programmed to not kill humans), humans can't kill humans (generally -- you'd suspect they could if they didn't use guns), androids can kill each other. But note who comes out the worst here: Androids. They're total pawns; their only benefit is that they're typically not permakilled, but they're still just victims waiting to happen. The episode highlights this on a few occasions, and they are viscerally brutal.

And that's the space the show is exploring -- potentially the transition of androids as victims to creatures of free will and able to protect themselves AND pursue their own goals versus their programming. And how that interplays with the human beings who didn't expect that. They're essentially an enslaved race that might be coming in to their own... and what happens when they do?

There's a horrific scene in the episode involving Maeve, where she wakes up, and .... well, you'll know it when you see it. Seeing the world through her eyes is terrifying, if you can imagine having NO context for it. Wow.

Also, the Man in Black is advancing his play, trying to solve the game under the game. It's interesting -- what is he looking for, and what will he find? But there's an interesting twist in that scene as well even if the outcome seemed foreordained.

I find the Hopkins character interesting because he truly IS the magician -- he is god (as he said last episode) to the androids, and he has power over them, this old man puttering about. He waves a finger, things respond. Does God care about his creations? He seems less callous than some of the other staff, having more insight into what the guests want and WANTING his creations to become more alive and real. I wouldn't be surprised if some of what is happening is part of his plan.
 

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I find the Hopkins character interesting because he truly IS the magician -- he is god (as he said last episode) to the androids, and he has power over them, this old man puttering about. He waves a finger, things respond. Does God care about his creations? He seems less callous than some of the other staff, having more insight into what the guests want and WANTING his creations to become more alive and real. I wouldn't be surprised if some of what is happening is part of his plan.

Agreed. I loved when he told the loud British guy (he has a name I just don't know it), after the big presentation - no. Hehe. I'm also sure at least Dr. Ford and Bernard know what the Man in Black is up to and have no intention of stopping or interfering with him. Because he's never leaving the park.

I also like the covert conversations Bernard is having with Delores. And he is sleeping with Ashley. He has a lot going on.

Maeve. I can't imagine becoming aware and having no context. Someone is going to get cut with more than a scalpel and soon.

I still need to see the original but as the episodes go on, I'm not sure that I want to. Anyway, this week was riveting. It's really, really good.
 

Totenkindly

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Ford smoked the loudmouth so badly. heh. I also loved it when he was puttering about talking to the boy in the desert; I had kind of guessed what was going on, but that interaction really reveals his character.

Oh, yes, I forgot about Bernard and Delores. I love that covert ongoing conversation (... and I even love the geek aspect of it... basically interfacing and running diagnostics with the AI via actual talking versus having to type).

These violent delights have violent ends. Poor Maeve. I really like how the actress played the same scene a few times on different balance settings; that's not easy to do.

Anyway, yes, the writing so far + the acting has been top-notch. It could easily be a let down to revisit the original after seeing this, aside from curiosity.

'Westworld' Episode Two: Jimmi Simpson Might Have the Most Important Job on Westworld
 
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