Westworld (2016)

[Ivy]

I was a little confused about the host family Ford has been playing house with. Was the father Arnold, or Ford's father, or both? Bernard mistook him for Arnold at first, and he looked like the non-Hopkins man in the photo they've shown of young Ford and Arnold a few times (I remembered his face because I vaguely recognized the actor and have been trying to figure out who he is).

I don't necessarily think Theresa is a villain just yet- but we're clearly meant to think so right now. I still think there will be more layers.

It's getting so good!

 

[Totenkindly]

Theresa:

It's not clear yet that she's a villain, but what I was saying was that she and Ford are basically in opposition to each other, and I think this was her way of getting info out of Ford's Westworld back to Delos in a way he is not aware of and can't tamper with, plus he doesn't know she is notifying them of certain things. this could simply be part of doing her job effectively.

However, it does look like someone is piggy-backing in -- someone unconnected to her -- and utilizing channels to run the bicameral instruction of certain hosts. So the web is becoming tangled; she opened a door, something else is using it the other direction?

Arnold + Ford:
Here's a link discussing this a bit further (in context of what you said). the gist is that it's not entirely clear who certain people are, so multiple conclusions are still in play.
https://www.reddit.com/r/westworld/comments/5bjz98/a_note_about_ford_and_arnold/

There's also the thing about the logo that ceecee mentioned. so it means that one of the theories I brought up prior (about William) could have some teeth. It wouldn't be surprising; Nolan is notorious for multi-dimensional story lines and you can't quite trust what he's feeding you, which is one reason I like him.

 

[Totenkindly]

Episode 7:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA1!! YEsssssss!!!

I'm pretty sure we have discussed one of the major developments here as a possibility before.

Poor Bernard. I was thinking that... and as soon as she said, "What's behind this door?" and he said, "What door?" But they were keying into it through much of the episode: "The longer I'm here, it's the Hosts I understand. Humans are too confusing." Or something to that gist. it explains also why Ford gave Bernard the look he did during the firing scene -- how can Bernard be fired? He has no life to go back to.

Poor Theresa didn't seem quite as aware as I did that her time was short, not until partway through the conversation. It was pretty much a conclusion she was a goner as soon as Ford appeared. So the question is... to cover up her murder, is Ford going to replace Theresa with that host we saw him making in the basement? Also, will this follow up with Bernard? will he recall murdering Theresa? Will he have to face his own existential pain of realizing in bits and pieces again that he isn't human? And over the memories of his son?

Also, I guess I just need some kind of lovin' because that scene between William and Delores kind of left me breathless. Like... oh my.

Also: Maeve. I was laughing out loud both for this scene as well as the Bernard/Ford/Theresa scene. She is just terrorizing those poor tech guys. They are petrified of her -- it's a great repeating situation in a show that needs the humor, oh the look in their eyes. I love that she doesn't turn off anymore when the rest of the locale gets shut down, and her "I've died a thousand times" schtick was just so badass. I don't know how she plans to get out, but if anyone can, it's her. That look she gave while they were lobotomizing Clementine was just so murderous. And Thandie Newton really has nailed this role; she has the most delicious facial expressions.

It bears discussion Clementine as well. The episode turns the emotional screws by having her describe to Maeve and thus to us the optimistic plans she has for her future, even if it's merely 'in world.' And then it seems that those plans will now never occur. Obviously this is a motivation to Maeve to keep herself alive and also of anger towards those who did such a thing to her friend. But it also develops the bitter tragedy of the Hosts to the audience... even their fabricated dreams, the ones we know are simply programmed into them, are eventually things that humans can just take away.

 

[ceecee]

Episode 7:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA1!! YEsssssss!!!

I'm pretty sure we have discussed one of the major developments here as a possibility before.

Poor Bernard. I was thinking that... and as soon as she said, "What's behind this door?" and he said, "What door?" But they were keying into it through much of the episode: "The longer I'm here, it's the Hosts I understand. Humans are too confusing." Or something to that gist. it explains also why Ford gave Bernard the look he did during the firing scene -- how can Bernard be fired? He has no life to go back to.

Poor Theresa didn't seem quite as aware as I did that her time was short, not until partway through the conversation. It was pretty much a conclusion she was a goner as soon as Ford appeared. So the question is... to cover up her murder, is Ford going to replace Theresa with that host we saw him making in the basement? Also, will this follow up with Bernard? will he recall murdering Theresa? Will he have to face his own existential pain of realizing in bits and pieces again that he isn't human? And over the memories of his son?

Also, I guess I just need some kind of lovin' because that scene between William and Delores kind of left me breathless. Like... oh my.

Also: Maeve. I was laughing out loud both for this scene as well as the Bernard/Ford/Theresa scene. She is just terrorizing those poor tech guys. They are petrified of her -- it's a great repeating situation in a show that needs the humor, oh the look in their eyes. I love that she doesn't turn off anymore when the rest of the locale gets shut down, and her "I've died a thousand times" schtick was just so badass. I don't know how she plans to get out, but if anyone can, it's her. That look she gave while they were lobotomizing Clementine was just so murderous. And Thandie Newton really has nailed this role; she has the most delicious facial expressions.

It bears discussion Clementine as well. The episode turns the emotional screws by having her describe to Maeve and thus to us the optimistic plans she has for her future, even if it's merely 'in world.' And then it seems that those plans will now never occur. Obviously this is a motivation to Maeve to keep herself alive and also of anger towards those who did such a thing to her friend. But it also develops the bitter tragedy of the Hosts to the audience... even their fabricated dreams, the ones we know are simply programmed into them, are eventually things that humans can just take away.

When they admitted that the fans were getting "warmer" on their theories, I figure it was this.

And when he looked at the sketch and said - it doesn't look like anything to me.....

Bernard - Oh man. What made me think he was, besides the door, was when he asked about Elsie. Why he didn't go look for her. But Ford programmed his son and his death...so bad. It's also why Ford never said anything when he was fired. What's there to say, the board are idiots. And those design sketches - there are more hosts like Bernard. And all that's happened makes more sense.

Theresa - Kinda happy it went down like this, I don't know why. But not for Bernard. It's obvious something will happen from here on out with him and the other hosts - the rebellion has already begun.

Dr. Ford - Oh he's keeping the park and the intellectual property and everything else because he will cut a bitch. I mean he will have a host smash your head into a wall. They couldn't have cast this role better - you already have Lecter in the back of your mind to begin with and they can capitalize on it to no end.

Maeve - I love how she fucks with Felix and Sylvester and those names cannot be an accident, as in the two cartoon cats. She dropped the mic - I'm out. Like slamming the piano shut and having the intelligence to be cool when they came for Clementine. And I know there is going to be a cage match Maeve vs Ford at some point.

Billy and Delores - No one got raped - that's a plus. And her drawing that came true. And the beautiful scenery, the train, Ghost Nation, Confederados, all great but you know this is going to end badly. It's the one reason I haven't dismissed the MiB/Billy theory. I like the body full of nitroglycerin as a bomb. Gross but effective. Does anyone think they are headed into the maze? That uncharted territory Lawrence mentioned....

Please don't tell me Ford destroyed little Robert for killing the dog.

 

[Totenkindly]

Episode 8: Decent enough, although the writing (or directing?) felt a little weaker in terms of meshing with earlier narrative. Mostly Maeve is the must-see here. I'm glad they opened with the fallout regarding Bernard, though; that was good.

About the William / MIB connection: The dialogue seems to support it, but the details of the landscapes confuse things. It looks like Delores is recalling the past but then William is with her in the 'Now' with the church steeple rising... or was she remembering an even EARLIER iteration? I'm getting a bit confused and would have to rewatch the William through-line to compare again.

But yeah, they were using Tallulah as a marker -- she has wide spacious eyes and MIB recognizes her, and I think the only place we have seen her was in Westworld intake, where she brought William up to speed.

And is our fearless investigator killed by Bernard? Maybe she is the one being replaced in the basement, since Ford decided to play Theresa's body as a warning shot to the board.

 

[ceecee]

Episode 8: Decent enough, although the writing (or directing?) felt a little weaker in terms of meshing with earlier narrative. Mostly Maeve is the must-see here. I'm glad they opened with the fallout regarding Bernard, though; that was good.

About the William / MIB connection: The dialogue seems to support it, but the details of the landscapes confuse things. It looks like Delores is recalling the past but then William is with her in the 'Now' with the church steeple rising... or was she remembering an even EARLIER iteration? I'm getting a bit confused and would have to rewatch the William through-line to compare again.

But yeah, they were using Tallulah as a marker -- she has wide spacious eyes and MIB recognizes her, and I think the only place we have seen her was in Westworld intake, where she brought William up to speed.

And is our fearless investigator killed by Bernard? Maybe she is the one being replaced in the basement, since Ford decided to play Theresa's body as a warning shot to the board.

Yeah I think they wanted to make two points in this episode - Maeve and the MiB and his background. At least most of it. This isn't a show that you can watch and fold laundry or something, I've learned. It requires full attention.

Elise - I knew Bernard killed her or at least incapacitated her. Are we all 100% sure Spare Hemsworth (Stubbs) isn't a host? That conversation with Bernard just seemed....you know.

Maeve - So good. Especially her new ability to manipulate the hosts. And slitting Sylvester's throat. Then telling Felix to fix it because they might need him. I liked when Felix told Maeve that humans see memories in blurred ways, hosts see them clearly. But this may be why the human audience can't always relate. The homestead scene is the one that seems most human to me.

Delores - I'm also unsure of when she is. But that would make sense given the possibility of William being the MiB. I almost want to re-watch all the episodes to see if I missed something.
Also, Logan is back and pissed.

Bernard - It feels like the Pinocchio story in some ways. That doesn't make his suffering better, it was horrible but I wonder how much Bernard is faking when he's with Ford. If Maeve has evolved this far, why couldn't that also be the case for the head of behavior? Yes she's had some help but so would he.

Peter Abernathy - OF COURSE that's the host Charlotte and Lee randomly picked.

Teddy - He's also remembering. I also think Teddy is going to have a showdown with William for Delores. This is where his remaining kindness and compassion will become a memory.

Loved Back in Black and House of the Rising Sun on the piano as well as the score this week.

 

[chubber]

What I don't get is why Maeve Millay (Thandie Newton) gets to do what she wants with the technicians, Felix Lutz (Leonardo Nam), Sylvester (Ptolemy Slocum) and why they don't just stop it. That just seems like one of those BS reasons to get the story to start like in the movie The Martian (2015) with Matt Damon as Mark Watney.

How does the milk portray growth? I just thought it was another backstory waiting to be told.

At some point, I started suspecting that there is another android on Dr Robert Ford's level, Base Level 0, which turned out to be Bernard Lowe (Jeffrey Wright), as it would be too simple if they all only existed in Base Level 1, or themed park.

One thing that I really feel left out on are the references to Shake Spear and words they use to exchange to "activate" each other.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Man in Black is also an Android because he has free reign even when the centre control asked if he needed to be reigned in.

There is another scene where Bernard Lowe has a flash back, right before he asks, has he ever done anything like this before, with a short recall to Elsie Hughes (Shannon Woodward) being taken out. Now as far as I recall, he was talking to her on the phone while it happened. Which I thought it couldn't be him and even if it is him, why? I guess that will be revealed later. My guess is, it is something they, the hosts have set up trying to get out? Of course, pure speculation.

Then there is this naked character, Charlotte Hale (Tessa Thompson), with authority walking around ordering Lee Sizemore (Simon Quarterman) and hosts that seems similar to Logan (Ben Barnes). I don't understand the hype they are trying to create, seems pointless to me. Maybe with time, later in the story it will make sense.

I like the show, reminds me of how good the re-imagined BSG used to be. But that Maeve Millay character really just spoils it for me, feels like a plot hole to me. They could have stopped it right then and there, I have a feeling the ending is going to be something similar.

 

[Totenkindly]

haha, I just remembered where I saw the bad-ass Hector (Rodrigo Santoro) before -- in Lost.

He played the ill-fated Paulo, of Nikki and Paulo fame who get an exquisite ending in Season 3 because the fan base hated the pair of them so much.

He's much better here in Westworld, tbh.

 

[Totenkindly]

Whoa.

Well, I'm gonna need time to process this episode (s01e09). That was a lot. And painful.

Side note:

I kind of half-noticed this before, but immediately as soon as it started going that way:

Bernard Lowe = Arnold Weber? Is Weber Arnold's last name?

 

[ceecee]

Whoa.

Well, I'm gonna need time to process this episode (s01e09). That was a lot. And painful.

Side note:

I kind of half-noticed this before, but immediately as soon as it started going that way:

Bernard Lowe = Arnold Weber? Is Weber Arnold's last name?

That was the name on the office door so I'm going with yes.

Lots to unpack, going to re watch tomorrow. I love this show.

 

[ceecee]

haha, I just remembered where I saw the bad-ass Hector (Rodrigo Santoro) before -- in Lost.

He played the ill-fated Paulo, of Nikki and Paulo fame who get an exquisite ending in Season 3 because the fan base hated the pair of them so much.

He's much better here in Westworld, tbh.

I have a hard time seeing him as anything other than....

...but he is better in Westworld, I agree.

 

[Totenkindly]

List of the biggest mysteries hinted at / solved in Episode 9. (So don't read until viewing, spoilers abound.)
‘Westworld’ Episode 9 Recap: Don’t Call Him Billy [Video]

1. The "purloined letter" photograph is cute, now -- we assumed Arnold was the guy in the middle because the other two characters were accounted for. But apparently not. Anyway, if Bernard looks like Arnold, why doesn't anyone who has been around for a long time and/or execs note the similarity? You think someone would have said something?

2. William + Delores are in the earlier timeline, verified by (1) her mechanical inner workings and (2) the photograph which appears weathered in the later timeline. We know host memories are perfect in detail; it's why we are having trouble distinguishing between Delores' old memories and new experience if she is dressed similarly. That + her expecting young William to enter the church but experience the MIB instead suggests that, yup, two timelines and the MIB = William. Still trying to get a sense of what story Ford is resurrecting though?

BTW, that was horrific and devastating to watch Logan gut Delores. It might be the most brutal thing on the show so far? Very personal, very violent, very dehumanizing physically and emotionally, against a woman being held by men. But I think it was supposed to generate outrage and repulsion.

3. Teddy = Wyatt? His memories are overlapping as well. And apparently he is recognized as an important leader; Angela kills him off again to force another cycle until he comes back into his own.

4. Why did Delores kill Arnold, originally?

5. Bernard as Arnold explains those scenes where he was interviewing Delores and she was dressed -- in fact when the hosts are dressed? Those might all be Arnold scenes? I'll have to rewatch Season 1 after the finale.

6. Maeve remains the Bad Ass of the show. First controlling Bernard. Then liberating Hector. It's really interesting how she uses her power -- she is being a true revolutionary, she wants other hosts to join her versus controlling them as the humans do. She knows they will be committed if they make the decision. She wins Hector over believably. I love how she exploits her own Host-ness (e.g., the ability to die and come back to life) for her own ends.

7. The existential pain is the worst. Maeve is the least victimized at the moment, she has liberated herself and gained some power + she is refusing to use power to dominate others of her kind. IOW, she is fighting futility over being a host by fighting back for freedom. Teddy and Delores are also both trapped but trying to find some level of importance/liberation. I feel worst for Bernard: He had so MANY whammies last night.... controlled by Maeve briefly, then the whole power struggle with Ford, ending as it did. I'm not sure this means for him, but you could see him suffering: he was just a pawn of Ford's behind the scenes, he has these memories of a dead son that he experiences pain from even knowing they were not real, then recapturing knowledge that he is just a copy of a human versus unique, that his entire life was manufactured, and even at the end he had no control.

Again, not sure what that final bit we saw means for Bernard. But the show's been pretty heavy on the whole concept of identity and liberty and trying to figure out what both mean, especially if you are a created being. And it ties back into our own sense of self. Do we have any autonomy? Does our environment create/program us? (Our experiences?) and if we believe some kind of divine being created us -- like Ford -- do we still have any control over who and what we are, our sense of self? We make choices but our identities could be overwritten at the snap of a finger. This show creates a feeling of existential dread.

 

[ceecee]

List of the biggest mysteries hinted at / solved in Episode 9. (So don't read until viewing, spoilers abound.)
‘Westworld’ Episode 9 Recap: Don’t Call Him Billy [Video]

1. The "purloined letter" photograph is cute, now -- we assumed Arnold was the guy in the middle because the other two characters were accounted for. But apparently not. Anyway, if Bernard looks like Arnold, why doesn't anyone who has been around for a long time and/or execs note the similarity? You think someone would have said something?

2. William + Delores are in the earlier timeline, verified by (1) her mechanical inner workings and (2) the photograph which appears weathered in the later timeline. We know host memories are perfect in detail; it's why we are having trouble distinguishing between Delores' old memories and new experience if she is dressed similarly. That + her expecting young William to enter the church but experience the MIB instead suggests that, yup, two timelines and the MIB = William. Still trying to get a sense of what story Ford is resurrecting though?

BTW, that was horrific and devastating to watch Logan gut Delores. It might be the most brutal thing on the show so far? Very personal, very violent, very dehumanizing physically and emotionally, against a woman being held by men. But I think it was supposed to generate outrage and repulsion.

3. Teddy = Wyatt? His memories are overlapping as well. And apparently he is recognized as an important leader; Angela kills him off again to force another cycle until he comes back into his own.

4. Why did Delores kill Arnold, originally?

5. Bernard as Arnold explains those scenes where he was interviewing Delores and she was dressed -- in fact when the hosts are dressed? Those might all be Arnold scenes? I'll have to rewatch Season 1 after the finale.

6. Maeve remains the Bad Ass of the show. First controlling Bernard. Then liberating Hector. It's really interesting how she uses her power -- she is being a true revolutionary, she wants other hosts to join her versus controlling them as the humans do. She knows they will be committed if they make the decision. She wins Hector over believably. I love how she exploits her own Host-ness (e.g., the ability to die and come back to life) for her own ends.

7. The existential pain is the worst. Maeve is the least victimized at the moment, she has liberated herself and gained some power + she is refusing to use power to dominate others of her kind. IOW, she is fighting futility over being a host by fighting back for freedom. Teddy and Delores are also both trapped but trying to find some level of importance/liberation. I feel worst for Bernard: He had so MANY whammies last night.... controlled by Maeve briefly, then the whole power struggle with Ford, ending as it did. I'm not sure this means for him, but you could see him suffering: he was just a pawn of Ford's behind the scenes, he has these memories of a dead son that he experiences pain from even knowing they were not real, then recapturing knowledge that he is just a copy of a human versus unique, that his entire life was manufactured, and even at the end he had no control.

Again, not sure what that final bit we saw means for Bernard. But the show's been pretty heavy on the whole concept of identity and liberty and trying to figure out what both mean, especially if you are a created being. And it ties back into our own sense of self. Do we have any autonomy? Does our environment create/program us? (Our experiences?) and if we believe some kind of divine being created us -- like Ford -- do we still have any control over who and what we are, our sense of self? We make choices but our identities could be overwritten at the snap of a finger. This show creates a feeling of existential dread.

Ok so much suspense.

Bernard - Oh man, so much pain. So many emotions. But the most sadistic thing Ford does to him, Maeve too, is taking the memories. It may seem benevolent but it's anything but. And making him commit suicide? Ford has to suffer.

Maeve - I think she will be the one that makes Ford pay. She is likely smarter than he is and has access to every administrative command. And now she has allies. And a hot lover. If you're going out in a blaze, go out fucking. That's an idea I can get behind.

Teddy = Wyatt = That's not as strange as it sounds. And I don't think the MiB would have picked him at random either.

Delores - Please let her be the one to kill Logan. And we know she is in an earlier timeline. How/Why did she kill Arnold and is this realizing guilt? Is that why she hears his voice more than any other host?

William - Would you say we are like 98% sure on this one? Especially after the scene with Charlotte.

 

[chubber]

Bernard is Arnold, Arnold is Bernard, or at least that is how I understood it. Arnold was a host too.

 

[Totenkindly]

Bernard is Arnold, Arnold is Bernard, or at least that is how I understood it. Arnold was a host too.

From what's been in the show so far, Arnold was human and was killed.

 

[chubber]

From what's been in the show so far, Arnold was human and was killed.

Well, I think he never was, but I could be missing something. Who was the 3rd guy in the photo?

 

[Totenkindly]

Well, I think he never was, but I could be missing something. Who was the 3rd guy in the photo?

Not Robert Ford and not Arnold Weber.

He looks like the host emulating Ford's father who we saw in the cottage. So potentially it's Ford's father.

 

[Hive]

Well, I think he never was, but I could be missing something. Who was the 3rd guy in the photo?

Hasn't been properly explained, but it could be Ford's father. Whoever it is, Ford modelled the father of the mock family after him.

Also, Ford says that Bernard's memory of his song dying, his "cornerstone", is a sort of homage (to Arnold), implying that Arnold himself struggled with some sort of loss. I think that's why Arnold became obsessed with unlocking humanity in the hosts, to gain back whoever he had lost, likely his own son.

 

[Hive]

What are the chances of every single staff member being a host controlled by Ford? During Bernard's flashback to the pillow talk between him and Theresa, she freezes, just like a host. If this happened or if it's just a distortion of his memory is unclear, but it doesn't seem unlikely that she wasn't human. Hosts can kill other hosts, but not humans unless their programming is screwed with. Unless Ford has somehow programmed Bernard to be able to kill other people but not his creator, I think it's a feasible theory. We also know that, besides having hosts among the higher ups of the park, they also employ them for jobs such as park greeters, which implies that hosts can be found at any level of the organization.

We also never see anything that implies any staff member ever leaves the building. Is the park at such a remote location that it simply would be inconvenient to leave, or is it because they can't without detonating their built-in bombs?

Also, remember how the Man in Black remarks that "nothing in Westworld is an accident"? Lee Sizemore = Less is more. An ironic joke, courtesy of his creator perhaps.

 

[Totenkindly]

It would seem odd and unlikely for Theresa to have been a host. Why would Ford have sicc'ed Bernard on her? he could have done whatever he wanted to her and wiped her memory in an instant, he certainly didn't have to handle it THAT way.

Also, this would suggest the external board would have to be hosts, if they didn't figure out Theresa was a host. These are the same folks trying to run Ford out. Again, doesn't make sense since they are external to the park (supposedly) and Ford has no power over them except to play what games he has been playing. If he were in charge, he could handle it much differently and far more easily.

I think it's definitely possible there are more hosts on staff we are unaware of. But not that everyone is. The other common candidate has been Stubbs, but that might be addressed in the season finale since he had a not-so-happy encounter with definite hosts last episode.