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gender roles in movies

miss fortune

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[MENTION=9310]uumlau[/MENTION]... I'm really not referring to badass chicks who kick a lot of ass, as I've seen an increasing number of them in movies

I'm referring more to how you don't tend to get couples where the woman is the less emotional one and the man is the more sensitive one and NOT have it played for comedy... the only thing that I can think of off the top of my head that I've seen that dynamic in recently is Southpaw
mostly if you get a more sensitive man he's an object to be laughed at and his wife is forever exasperated with him and that sort of dynamic annoys me as well... like if you have a stronger woman she should suddenly become a bit of a bitch towards others? a guy with those characteristics is perfectly accepting of a more emotional partner

I guess in a way that sort of contrast kind of stood out to me since we'd watched a drama before watching Poltergeist and the man cried several times during it (which is not uncommon) and I was nice and petted him until he was happier and it sort of hit me that you don't get that sort of gender relationship in movies... only the opposite :unsure:
 

Ingrid in grids

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I'm going to be kind of blunt here. I am sick and tired of hearing how there aren't enough strong female leads. Supergirl (a new series that I like - I paid to stream it on Amazon) was treated as if it were something new under the sun, that "finally" there was a female hero for women and girls to look up to. Same for Marvel's Agent Carter (which is sadly not being renewed :( ), where reviewers exclaim how it's nice to finally have a strong female lead.

OMFG. Where have these people been?

You think I'm just cherrypicking? I can go on.

No, you really are cherry picking. The problem of gender representation on film is a systemic problem.

Please have a look at this website. It's the largest ever study conducted on dialogue in Hollywood scripts. The presentation is also interactive and easy to view.
 

Coriolis

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But - a hugeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee but - at the end of the day realistically there will always be more feminine women than masculine/tough ones. That is nature. So I don't mind seeing it either way (tough or feminine).
The issue isn't the need to show masculine women or feminine men. It's the need to show women as protagonists; as non-sexualized villains; as the rescuer of a man, not just waiting to be rescued by him; as a character demonstrating agency, for good or for ill, and not just the appendage to a man; in every functional role occupied by men. Female characters can be all these things and still be feminine, or not. The two are not linked.

I'm going to be kind of blunt here. I am sick and tired of hearing how there aren't enough strong female leads. Supergirl (a new series that I like - I paid to stream it on Amazon) was treated as if it were something new under the sun, that "finally" there was a female hero for women and girls to look up to. Same for Marvel's Agent Carter (which is sadly not being renewed :( ), where reviewers exclaim how it's nice to finally have a strong female lead.
It's not just a matter of female leads, it's how women overall are portrayed and cast. Sure, there are all the examples you cited, and more. But compared with the number of male counterexamples, their numbers are still rather small, both across the spectrum of movies, and within individual movies. Have you heard about the Bechdel Test? It asks whether a movie (or book) features at least two women who talk to each other about something other than a man. Supergirl passes with flying colors, as does Hunger Games, but many others do not. Of course, there is more to analyzing movies than this one criterion, but the answers are usually quite telling.

Interesting that you mentioned Lord of the Rings. I have seen that several times, and the dearth of not simply "strong women" but any women has always stood out like a sore thumb. Indeed, Eowyn is the token capable woman. Arwen, whose role was expanded beyond the books for the films, is defined almost entirely by her relationship to Aragorn. Other than helping to save Frodo, she mostly stands around looking pretty, worrying, and waiting for her man.

And don't start on video games. The vast majority are still very male-oriented, and the small number of women breaking into the genre as writers have occasionally attracted considerable harassment and threats online as they attempt to push the envelope. I do think things will change - they are changing already - but we are nowhere near parity when it comes to the depictions of men and women here.

So no, there is no dearth of strong female characters: that's a narrative you buy into (not your fault, the culture repeats it over and over). But if you look at what is popular and what sells, the public has NO objection to strong female leads who can kick ass.
Strong female leads? Just the fact that we have to specify that shows how differently female characters are viewed. We don't talk about "strong male characters", and no, that isn't because all male protagonists are assumed to be strong. See this article for an interesting perspective.

No one ever asks if a male character is “strong”. Nor if he’s “feisty,” or “kick-ass” come to that.

The obvious thing to say here is that this is because he’s assumed to be “strong” by default. Part of the patronising promise of the Strong Female Character is that she’s anomalous. “Don’t worry!” that puff piece or interview is saying when it boasts the hero’s love interest is an SFC. “Of course, normal women are weak and boring and can’t do anything worthwhile. But this one is different. She is strong! See, she roundhouses people in the face.” Sometimes the phrase “not your typical damsel in distress” will be used, as if the writing of pop culture heroines had not moved on even slightly since Disney’s Snow White and as if a goodly percentage of SFCs did not end up, in fact, needing to be rescued.

This is true, and yet it’s not all of the truth.

Are our best-loved male heroes Strong Male Characters? Is, say, Sherlock Holmes strong? In one sense, yes, of course. He faces danger and death in order to pursue justice. On the other hand, his physical strength is often unreliable – strong enough to bend an iron poker when on form, he nevertheless frequently has to rely on Watson to clobber his assailants, at least once because he’s neglected himself into a condition where he can’t even try to fight back. His mental and emotional resources also fluctuate. An addict and a depressive, he claims even his crime-fighting is a form of self-medication. Viewed this way, his willingness to place himself in physical danger might not be “strength” at all – it might be another form of self-destructiveness. Or on the other hand, perhaps his vulnerabilities make him all the stronger, as he succeeds in surviving and flourishing in spite of threats located within as well without.

Is Sherlock Holmes strong? It’s not just that the answer is “of course”, it’s that it’s the wrong question.


You are right on the money about those fantasy romance novels, though. Yuck.

I'm referring more to how you don't tend to get couples where the woman is the less emotional one and the man is the more sensitive one and NOT have it played for comedy... the only thing that I can think of off the top of my head that I've seen that dynamic in recently is Southpaw
mostly if you get a more sensitive man he's an object to be laughed at and his wife is forever exasperated with him and that sort of dynamic annoys me as well... like if you have a stronger woman she should suddenly become a bit of a bitch towards others? a guy with those characteristics is perfectly accepting of a more emotional partner
Absolutely. This is just the sort of thing I notice. All. The. Time. There are exceptions - weren't Scully and Mulder one? You could argue Katniss and Peeta from Hunger Games, and possibly the two protagonists from DaVinci Code, though he seemed more the absent-minded professor sort.
 

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They sell tickets. They sell DVDs and such. If there were more people wanting different gender roles portrayed, they'd make them, so they could have more money. They don't, because it's not a sound investment.

Believe it or not... Girls dom'ing "passive, emotionally vulnerable" guys is a minority. It may not be such a minority to completely dismiss it, but it's enough to accept that it's a decent minority. If it is 10%, 20%, whatever, it is not necessary to portray a female in the dominant role, rather it is beneficial to have a female display dominance 10%, 20%, whatever, of the time. This is done in ways such as the female saying they should do something, and the male going along with it. The other 90%, 80%, whatever, of the time, the female is going along with what the man says. When you cross 50% mark of the female portraying dominance, you're appealing to the minority, which isn't financially sound.
 

Ingrid in grids

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They sell tickets. They sell DVDs and such. If there were more people wanting different gender roles portrayed, they'd make them, so they could have more money. They don't, because it's not a sound investment.

Believe it or not... Girls dom'ing "passive, emotionally vulnerable" guys is a minority. It may not be such a minority to completely dismiss it, but it's enough to not accept that it's a decent minority. If it is 10%, 20%, whatever, it is not necessary to portray a female in the dominant role, rather it is beneficial to have a female display dominance 10%, 20%, whatever, of the time. This is done in ways such as the female saying they should do something, and the male going along with it. The other 90%, 80%, whatever, of the time, the female is going along with what the man says. When you cross 50% mark of the female portraying dominance, you're appealing to the minority, which isn't financially sound.

Not really. Women actually buy more movie tickets than men. Including good female roles in films is actually good business

Major blockbusters work like tentpoles to prop large studios up, and provide the financial support to then make smaller budget films pandering to the Academy. Because so much is depending on these tentpoles to keep the studios running and fund so many other projects, their approach to them is extremely conservative, based on models that have already demonstrated success in recent years. This is why we have so many superhero movies getting pumped out year after year, which are gradually becoming less successful as they simply take no risks—stylistically, in narrative, etc.
 

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Not really. Women actually buy more movie tickets than men. Including good female roles in films is actually good business.

"Good female roles" doesn't mean "female dominates man" to by far the majority of people.
 

Ingrid in grids

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"Good female roles" doesn't mean "female dominates man" to by far the majority of people.

Er, no. The women do not literally need to beat up guys and dominate them on screen to be a good role. It's more to do with representation. Or do you mean dominating in terms of line allotment?
 

Jeremy8419

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Er, no. The women do not literally need to beat up guys and dominate them on screen to be a good role. It's more to do with representation. Or do you mean dominating in terms of line allotment?

I mean the subtext some of y'all display over and over and over on these forums (haven't noticed it from you). This entire thread is about "why doesn't everyone else want the female to pitch and the male to catch? that's the way it should be." Look, I'm sorry, but that's simply not how most of society is nor wants it to be.

Gone With the Wind... Quintessential female movie, "strong" female lead... Still turns into a girl beneath the strong(er) male lead. And women love it.
 

Totenkindly

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I mean the subtext some of y'all display over and over and over on these forums (haven't noticed it from you). This entire thread is about "why doesn't everyone else want the female to pitch and the male to catch? that's the way it should be." Look, I'm sorry, but that's simply not how most of society is nor wants it to be.

Gone With the Wind... Quintessential female movie, "strong" female lead... Still turns into a girl beneath the strong(er) male lead. And women love it.
I never really took to that movie.

What else does society really want? Please share.
 

uumlau

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@uumlau... I'm really not referring to badass chicks who kick a lot of ass, as I've seen an increasing number of them in movies

I'm referring more to how you don't tend to get couples where the woman is the less emotional one and the man is the more sensitive one and NOT have it played for comedy... the only thing that I can think of off the top of my head that I've seen that dynamic in recently is Southpaw
mostly if you get a more sensitive man he's an object to be laughed at and his wife is forever exasperated with him and that sort of dynamic annoys me as well... like if you have a stronger woman she should suddenly become a bit of a bitch towards others? a guy with those characteristics is perfectly accepting of a more emotional partner

I guess in a way that sort of contrast kind of stood out to me since we'd watched a drama before watching Poltergeist and the man cried several times during it (which is not uncommon) and I was nice and petted him until he was happier and it sort of hit me that you don't get that sort of gender relationship in movies... only the opposite :unsure:

OK, now THAT is an interesting observation. I was assuming you were talking about the horror movie genre and those stereotypes. Personally, I don't mind the "sensitive man with stoic woman" dynamic, but yes it's very very rare that it is done without a comedic twist. I don't even see it in books that often, except when the woman is some sort of mentor/teacher.

I can definitely see that there is an aversion to depicting such a thing, and that aversion would appear to have roots that go very deep into the human psyche and culture as a whole. I think the aversion is kind of one-sided: it is more an aversion against men acting in a passive/feminine manner, and not really against women taking on more masculine roles (as I detailed previously).


No, you really are cherry picking. The problem of gender representation on film is a systemic problem.

Please have a look at this website. It's the largest ever study conducted on dialogue in Hollywood scripts. The presentation is also interactive and easy to view.
And you are really moving goalposts. :) It is my fault for misunderstanding what whatever was getting at, but this isn't what either of us were talking about. Not that there's anything wrong with the new goalpost, it just raises a different set of questions focusing on quantity of roles/dialog vs quality.
 

Reborn Relic

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No, you really are cherry picking. The problem of gender representation on film is a systemic problem.

Please have a look at this website. It's the largest ever study conducted on dialogue in Hollywood scripts. The presentation is also interactive and easy to view.

Sure, individual movies might not be representative, but that understanding of the problem refines the understanding of the solution, possibly. It might be possible that this is going to be the best you get through purely rhetorical means, or at the very least through a reference to individual movies and how they in particular are bad. You start with that, maybe, but you don't finish with that, because changing 100% of movies is unrealistic and in my opinion censorship.
 
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