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Stephen King's "IT"

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I should read this book. I've only read a few of his stories before. I'm curious to see all the things I'm missing (and yes, I know some of them are bonkers). It's a really interesting story that touches on the fact that adults never leave their past far behind.
 
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The Cat

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I should read this book. I've only read a few of his stories before. I'm curious to see all the things I'm missing (and yes, I know some of them are bonkers). It's a really interesting story that touches on the fact that adults never leave their past far behind.

There's no such thing as adults. Not really. Just big older closer to death children who are better at lying to themselves that they've grown up because they're sadder, rather than actually growing up.
 

Totenkindly

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IT, CHAPTER TWO

I finished this last night, jotted down my notes today. Yes, I watched all five hours on the same day.

Obvious spoilers in this, so... be warned.

Casting for the Adult Losers:
  • Good: Bev, Richie, and Eddie. They all fit the book characters well, plus align with the kid cast. Bill Hader is like a perfect cast for Richie.
  • Adequate: Mike, Stanley, Ben. I might budge to Good for Ben, as he actually COULD be the kid Ben from film #1 if he thinned out, in terms of appearance. He's just so different from book Ben.
  • Bad: James McAvoy as Bill. I am not sure how others feel about it, but I felt like he only got cast for the name recognition. Two different names that come to mind are either Michael Shannon (who is actually just outside the right age but unfortunately usually looks older) OR Tobey Maguire. I think Maguire would have had the low-key charisma to pull off the role satisfactorily. There are probably others. I still don't understand why someone thought "McAvoy" when this film was cast, aside from maybe him coming off his victory in Split.
The scene the gay couple is attacked on the Derry bridge is pretty close to the books and horrific.

The openings (Mike calling each person in turn) is condensed in this film from the books but typically does capture the essence. They even manage to get the tone right for Bev, and Chastain shows both vulnerability and strength, hinting at how she fell in with an abusive partner but could still win herself free. In particular, Bev's and Eddie's partners are very much like their respective parents (in fact the same actress who plays Eddie's mom also plays his wife); when abuse situations aren't resolved, people tend to gravitate back into similar relationships out of familiarity because it's what they know even if it's worse, due to the need for predictability.

The table banter at the Chinese restaurant is really great, I laughed naturally along with it; the way it's scored and shot has overtones of the Blood Pact scene. I think the film might oversell the mess with the fortune cookies; it's good but maybe a little much and almost moves into absurdity.

A new scene (I think?) occurs with victim Rebecca lured under the bleachers by IT; it is particularly horrific because (1) she susses him out as untrustworthy, because she's smart, so (2) IT plays off her compassion to get her to come back, and then also offers her something she really wants so she can fit in. It is so well done but it also leaves me feeling sick to my stomach. It's kind of on par with Doctor Sleep where the psychic vampires snuff the baseball kid in terms of visceral reaction.

The smokehouse scene from the book got translated into a drugged vision instigated by Mike, revealing IT's origin and "The Ritual of Chud" -- although the ritual is changed for the film from the book. They even included the Hatch room where the smokehouse was carried out, so not sure what gives.

This is the point where the film series to me skids off the rails. There are some notable changes from the book which I am semi-okay with (like Mike not being laid up in the hospital by Bowers, so he can go with them into the sewers -- although the purpose in the book was to ratchet tension as the Losers are dwindling in number, the Circle broken further). However, it feels very much like they wanted to just put their own stamp on King's story, so they threw out stuff that existed for stuff that didn't really add anything new or useful. Why exactly?

The "quest for individual tokens" is useful in bringing in at least two scenes from the book, Bev visiting her old apartment, and Richie seeing Paul Bunyan -- I think both of these happen in the book but before they meet for dinner at the Chinese restaurant, but they've been placed here instead. I don't recall whether Eddie's scene in the drugstore basement was in the book or any of the others, but they typically run way too long honestly. Splitting up the Losers after they are brought back together really kills the pacing of the story and makes for a semi-tedious middle of the film. Also, these tend to use the same repeatedly horror elements we've already seen + the typical pace of Muschetti's jump scares, so they become predictable and not much fun.

I think the whole subplot with Bill meeting the kid in the streets + then him stupidly running off on his own to the Hall of Mirrors is entirely dumb and should have been cut. it adds nothing new to the story. Was this a condition of McAvoy being involved -- that he get his own scenes or something?

So after a kind of underwhelming middle, they get into the sewers finally and head through the wooden door. In this case, the finale action takes place in the impact crater of IT's ship millennia prior. This leads to another stupid plot point involving Mike deceiving the group -- which is jarring, undermines Mike's character, and doesn't seem like him in the least because he's the most reliable and methodical of all the Losers as the group historian and the Derry watchman. It's just lame.

Next, the deadlights come down (again, I get the difficulty in determining what the deadlights are -- it reminds me a lot in the book of something from Jack Kirby's New Gods comics decades ago with the huge wall at the edge of Eternity behind... what exists?) and IT appears. It's a giant spider/crab monster in form here and this part becomines a chase + another series of moments where they are thrown individually into their own private horrors to overcome. Bill and Bev get out together to escape their feelings of always being alone; Bill overcomes his own guilt over Georgie's death, realizing it's the boy in him that is always accusing him of something he actually had no control over, and all he was in the end was human if anything; and so forth. The thing is, all these sequences tend to be way overblown and melodramatic, and I didn't realy feel much while watching aside from maybe laughter (like when a bunch of faces from Bev's past try to break into the bathroom stall she is in).

Eventually we get to Richie putting IT on the ropes, then getting deadlighted, then Eddie skewers it with an amazing spearcast, but then he virtually poses on a downed Richie crowing about his victory for long seconds until IT skewers him (duh). So now we're in the final endgame with Eddie down.

This final squence, I'm actually cool with -- it makes sense, IT is susceptible to whatever form IT is in (and has been a clown for a LONG time), and in the end clowns are just fake empty laughter and have no real ability to scare if it's truly understand they are just veneer with nothing substantial underneath. IT also is revealed to thrive on fear and response, so when things stop fearing it, it can't survive. The clown is an entertainer after all, but without a believing audience, what power does it have? So as they deride and humiliate IT, it shrinks and dwindles until it's just a pathetic little mewling creature, until they squish its heart like in the book. (In this case, IT's final words are actually good compared to the first film.)

After this brief glimpse of goodness in the finale, things start to swing down again. Another visit to the quarry (Good), an admission from Richie (a change from the book but still fine, and it also mirrors THIS film's opening), but then at the end:

1. They DON'T forget this time. (This feels like a huge cop-out, a huge feeling of bittersweetness of the book is that you can't go back, you can just know that at one point you were a child and had friends you loved as life itself). It's amazing how one line of dialogue can completely make a film no longer feel like an adaptation.

2. Worse, the Stan apologetics retcon him into a hero -- somehow, as terrified as he was after the phone call, instead of suiciding in despair (this is a huge premise of the book and one of the first real big shocks contributing to how awful IT must be), he has time to write individual letters by hand to a bunch of people who he didn't even remember ten minutes earlier (with addresses, even!) and drop them in the mail somehow (like the police and his wife wouldn't get these letters back to see what he was doing that night?) to explain why he was rationally taking himself out of play as a strategic move, as to not undermining their battle with IT since he didn't think he could hack it. WTF?? This is all meant to somehow make Stan into a good guy, but it undermines so much of the narrative and his personality and the tone of the film. Stan could not handle ambiguity; Stan was terrified; Stan wussed out repeatedly as a kid and was a timid adult; Stan killed himself to avoid a hell he had once experienced as a child and was now even less suited to handle. what is with this crap?

3. Finally, as the film ends with Stan's monolog from his letter, he talks about how they are losers and will always be losers. This is supposed to be.... meaningful somehow? But as the last line of the film, it doesn't have the proper tone and actually doesn't feel inspiring at all. It feels like the film is calling them all loser as in being losers.

It's pretty rare to see an adaptation with some really decent stuff that so much drops the ball in the final part of the story, but hey here you go. I don't know WTF they were thinking, and it makes it hard to invest emotionally in a film that ends poorly. I'd rather they botched the middle and nail the end, if they need to mess up something. Audience response shows this.

King had 1100 pages of material. A lot of the changes were unnecessary or made no sense. And don't change the tonal ending. At least the TV show ended with the right idea, even if the last ten minutes felt rushed and silly at times.
 

Totenkindly

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I guess long story short from this little exercise and stroll down rewatch lane:

1. The TV version was better than I recalled but pretty bad in some ways, and wasn't really directed well. Casting was wonky at times. It tried to sometimes take the book literally but relied on the viewers' recollection of the novel to fill in a LOT of gaps and feelings. It did not have enough run time to really patch up its holes, and it needed a better director.

2. The film versions were beautifully produced and actually decently adapted (the first one, mainly, and then the first parts of the second). It generates a lot of emotion without necessarily needing to have read the book. Aside from a few bad casts, the acting was pretty decent. However, it spins out of control due to willful deviations from the source and pretty much drops the ball in the last half hour, especially in the last five minutes, making it a hard watch if you were a book reader. What it needed was a better scripter in the latter half of the last film.

3. In both versions, the highlight of the films tended to be the two IT performances by Tim Curry and Bill Skarsgard. Both have a valid [and different] take on the character, so it depends on which one you prefer. But you have two great performances.
 

The Cat

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I think Tim Curry is one of those character actors that you recognize as one of your favorite character actors. Fans of Tim Curry can attest how much better the addition of Tim Curry really is. Fans of Bruce Campbell and Charles Dance will recognize this effect as well. Personally the true horror of the Tim Curry version of Pennywise is knowing that every time I watch it the real Tim Curry is older and closer to death. What will that moment say about me, a person who only understands conscious perspective as someone who's childhood was shaped by Tim Curry selflessly letting me know I was right to be afraid of clowns as a child. Tim Curry prepared us all for a shocking and traumatizing reality from which there is no escape. Our entire lives are going to be haunted by sadistic dancing clowns who can resemble our biggest fears but can relate to us no more than a cosmically horrrible spider filled with light and the suspension of disbelief that can only come from network television trying to scare you to be good consumers when you grow up.
 

Totenkindly

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I think Tim Curry is one of those character actors that you recognize as one of your favorite character actors. Fans of Tim Curry can attest how much better the addition of Tim Curry really is. Fans of Bruce Campbell and Charles Dance will recognize this effect as well. Personally the true horror of the Tim Curry version of Pennywise is knowing that every time I watch it the real Tim Curry is older and closer to death. What will that moment say about me, a person who only understands conscious perspective as someone who's childhood was shaped by Tim Curry selflessly letting me know I was right to be afraid of clowns as a child. Tim Curry prepared us all for a shocking and traumatizing reality from which there is no escape. Our entire lives are going to be haunted by sadistic dancing clowns who can resemble our biggest fears but can relate to us no more than a cosmically horrrible spider filled with light and the suspension of disbelief that can only come from network television trying to scare you to be good consumers when you grow up.
I can honestly say I had none of these thoughts watching Tim Curry in IT, lol.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I can't get away from them. The specter of death haunts me with the voice of Delroy Lindo telling Tim Curry to stop eating his sesame cake.
But he told everybody to eat. Make up your mind, ya dingus!
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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So after a kind of underwhelming middle, they get into the sewers finally and head through the wooden door. In this case, the finale action takes place in the impact crater of IT's ship millennia prior. This leads to another stupid plot point involving Mike deceiving the group -- which is jarring, undermines Mike's character, and doesn't seem like him in the least because he's the most reliable and methodical of all the Losers as the group historian and the Derry watchman. It's just lame.

I think Mike might have been my favorite character in the miniseries, so I was just puzzled about why he's a completely different character. Don't the movies have Ben doing all this research about the history of Derry, instead? It seems like perhaps they were trying to make Ben into a main character, but I didn't care for it.


This final squence, I'm actually cool with -- it makes sense, IT is susceptible to whatever form IT is in (and has been a clown for a LONG time), and in the end clowns are just fake empty laughter and have no real ability to scare if it's truly understand they are just veneer with nothing substantial underneath. IT also is revealed to thrive on fear and response, so when things stop fearing it, it can't survive. The clown is an entertainer after all, but without a believing audience, what power does it have? So as they deride and humiliate IT, it shrinks and dwindles until it's just a pathetic little mewling creature, until they squish its heart like in the book. (In this case, IT's final words are actually good compared to the first film.)
I liked that aspect of it, of how IT turned into some creature reminiscent of how Daffy Duck might look after falling for somebody else's tricks. This establishes how much power IT had lost.


After this brief glimpse of goodness in the finale, things start to swing down again. Another visit to the quarry (Good), an admission from Richie (a change from the book but still fine, and it also mirrors THIS film's opening), but then at the end:

1. They DON'T forget this time. (This feels like a huge cop-out, a huge feeling of bittersweetness of the book is that you can't go back, you can just know that at one point you were a child and had friends you loved as life itself). It's amazing how one line of dialogue can completely make a film no longer feel like an adaptation.

2. Worse, the Stan apologetics retcon him into a hero -- somehow, as terrified as he was after the phone call, instead of suiciding in despair (this is a huge premise of the book and one of the first real big shocks contributing to how awful IT must be), he has time to write individual letters by hand to a bunch of people who he didn't even remember ten minutes earlier (with addresses, even!) and drop them in the mail somehow (like the police and his wife wouldn't get these letters back to see what he was doing that night?) to explain why he was rationally taking himself out of play as a strategic move, as to not undermining their battle with IT since he didn't think he could hack it. WTF?? This is all meant to somehow make Stan into a good guy, but it undermines so much of the narrative and his personality and the tone of the film. Stan could not handle ambiguity; Stan was terrified; Stan wussed out repeatedly as a kid and was a timid adult; Stan killed himself to avoid a hell he had once experienced as a child and was now even less suited to handle. what is with this crap?

I actually did like this scene because it added something to the character. I assumed it was something from the book because it seemed more three-dimensional. I guess there, Stan fails his friends at every opportunity? He's a coward and that's it?
 

Totenkindly

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I actually did like this scene because it added something to the character. I assumed it was something from the book because it seemed more three-dimensional. I guess there, Stan fails his friends at every opportunity? He's a coward and that's it?
Well, I wouldn't go as far as to say he's just a loser coward. Like I mentioned, he's a type of personality that doesn't take risk or ambiguity well and needs to have everything make sense. as a kid, IT almost broken him as his psyche is brittle, and he is regularly in denial about what they are experiencing; he doesn't want to face it. In the book, he kills himself at the beginning of the book because he's terrified of going back to Derry. That's it.

This mainly describes the book Stan, although there's an additional paragraph talking about the end of the film and the differences. Interestingly (which I forgot), Stan is the one who gets the glass shard to cut their palms in the book as kids, after.

 

Totenkindly

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Here's a nice welcome mat for halloween:

Screenshot_20230910_112512_Facebook.jpg
 
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