Star Wars: The Force Awakens

[Doctor Cringelord]

My thoughts exactly.....

But then they couldn't do Clone Wars TV series and such.

But Ani does show the perils of inferior Ni....

True, and his character was better explored in the series. Point is, if they'd done a better job with the films, then they wouldn't have needed the series to flesh out the characters. I'd much rather see a show that focuses on Anakin/Vader's early years as a sith. Rebels and Clone Wars are fine, but a much bolder, braver approach would be a series that is viewed from the villains' perspectives. Ya know, Scarface, say good night to de bad guy.

However I did like how Clone Wars had an episode that explored the early relationship between Anakin and Tarkin. Makes more sense when you then see IV and Tarkin is the only Imperial with the power or balls to actually stand on equal ground with Vader. I love how Tarkin is never once intimidated by Vader.

People forget Vader is basically just a glorified henchman in IV, 1 step above Boba Fett; the character development didn't really start until the end of Empire.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

I think Star Wars attracts more S types. I have been noticing this of late. They are the ones who really seem to dig it, more than N types.

N types seem to prefer Star Trek and James Bond. Not sure why?

 

[SearchingforPeace]

I think Star Wars attracts more S types. I have been noticing this of late. They are the ones who really seem to dig it, more than N types.

N types seem to prefer Star Trek and James Bond. Not sure why?

While Star Wars is very S, especially episode 7, I don't think there is a S/N division on the Star Trek vs Star Wars divide...

 

[Reborn Relic]

I actually liked the fact that it reused a lot of things--there's a certain imprint, or resonance I guess, that I felt because of that, and it was nice. And you still got interesting and novel aspects because of Han being Obi-Wan, the switching up of who was whose father, and so on. I really did enjoy that.

As for Ren, there's still a lot we don't know, and two other movies for flashbacks and explanations to fill in the blanks. My gut says they won't go into it, but I can be wrong.

As for Anakin, it isn't too hard to make him work. Some added lines before he kills the Tuskan raiders, some political dialogue, and boom. Given that the prequels do tend to gloss over politics, I think that all stands a reasonable chance of having happened.

 

[Cellmold]

True, and his character was better explored in the series. Point is, if they'd done a better job with the films, then they wouldn't have needed the series to flesh out the characters. I'd much rather see a show that focuses on Anakin/Vader's early years as a sith. Rebels and Clone Wars are fine, but a much bolder, braver approach would be a series that is viewed from the villains' perspectives. Ya know, Scarface, say good night to de bad guy.

However I did like how Clone Wars had an episode that explored the early relationship between Anakin and Tarkin. Makes more sense when you then see IV and Tarkin is the only Imperial with the power or balls to actually stand on equal ground with Vader. I love how Tarkin is never once intimidated by Vader.

People forget Vader is basically just a glorified henchman in IV, 1 step above Boba Fett; the character development didn't really start until the end of Empire.

Moff iz mah mane m4n! Fav char.

I think Star Wars attracts more S types. I have been noticing this of late. They are the ones who really seem to dig it, more than N types.

N types seem to prefer Star Trek and James Bond. Not sure why?

Whut? U iz l3ss s4ane by tha day ladee!

ps: INTP huh? Ah wuntz doze drugz u tak! Ahm c1osur 2 INTP dan u!

 

[SearchingforPeace]

True, and his character was better explored in the series. Point is, if they'd done a better job with the films, then they wouldn't have needed the series to flesh out the characters. I'd much rather see a show that focuses on Anakin/Vader's early years as a sith. Rebels and Clone Wars are fine, but a much bolder, braver approach would be a series that is viewed from the villains' perspectives. Ya know, Scarface, say good night to de bad guy.

However I did like how Clone Wars had an episode that explored the early relationship between Anakin and Tarkin. Makes more sense when you then see IV and Tarkin is the only Imperial with the power or balls to actually stand on equal ground with Vader. I love how Tarkin is never once intimidated by Vader.

People forget Vader is basically just a glorified henchman in IV, 1 step above Boba Fett; the character development didn't really start until the end of Empire.

Darth is outside the established hierarchy. Until episode 4, the Republic is still functioning. Palpatine is emperor but can't rule without consent of the governed. Only in episode 4 does the plan for military dictatorship take full force. Even then, some generals wonder if it is reasonable....

The death of Tarkin at the Death Star was sad. He was a great character and his ability to hold a leash on Vader was great.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

I think Star Wars attracts more S types. I have been noticing this of late. They are the ones who really seem to dig it, more than N types.

N types seem to prefer Star Trek and James Bond. Not sure why?

Not sure about the Bond, but Trek goes far deeper than Wars in exploring concepts, ideas, moral gray areas, etc.

Star Wars is what I watch when I want mindless fun. I watch Trek because it makes me think about and/or question a variety of ideas and issues.

Trek (at its best) is basically a forum for discussing topical issues, philosophy, etc without doing so in a manner that is too overt or obvious, but enough that people looking for it will appreciate it. When people who don't like Trek complain that it's just a bunch of technobabble and talking, it's very clear they're missing the point*.

Star Wars is more about timeless, universal themes pertaining to the good vs evil aka the Hero's Journey, but it doesn't go too deep into specific issues. In that sense, it has staying power, whereas Trek is more contextual to the era in which any given episode or film was produced.



* - Also, these people should watch DS9 which has its fair share of epic space battles and multiple interweaving hero's journey arcs.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Darth is outside the established hierarchy. Until episode 4, the Republic is still functioning. Palpatine is emperor but can't rule without consent of the governed. Only in episode 4 does the plan for military dictatorship take full force. Even then, some generals wonder if it is reasonable....

The death of Tarkin at the Death Star was sad. He was a great character and his ability to hold a leash on Vader was great.

Yeah. Of course we kind of see Vader unleashed to his full badassery in V without Tarkin holding the leash.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

Not sure about the Bond, but Trek goes far deeper than Wars in exploring concepts, ideas, moral gray areas, etc.

Star Wars is what I watch when I want mindless fun. I watch Trek because it makes me think about and/or question a variety of ideas and issues.

Trek (at its best) is basically a forum for discussing topical issues, philosophy, etc without doing so in a manner that is too overt or obvious, but enough that people looking for it will appreciate it. When people who don't like Trek complain that it's just a bunch of technobabble and talking, it's very clear they're missing the point*.

Star Wars is more about timeless, universal themes pertaining to the good vs evil aka the Hero's Journey, but it doesn't go too deep into specific issues. In that sense, it has staying power, whereas Trek is more contextual to the era in which any given episode or film was produced.



* - Also, these people should watch DS9 which has its fair share of epic space battles and multiple interweaving hero's journey arcs.

So it sounds like a confirmation of the S and N demographic I stated with Wars vs Trek.

I say Bond because S and N types both like it, but I think N types can become more loyal to it. There are a lot of twists and turns in it that S types might not care as much for. Puns also.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Also, if I had to choose one universe to live in, I'd pick Trek over Wars any day of the week.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

So it sounds like a confirmation of the S and N demographic I stated with Wars vs Trek.

I say Bond because S and N types both like it, but I think N types can become more loyal to it. There are a lot of twists and turns in it that S types might not care as much for. Puns also.

For me, it is. I can't speak for other N and S types. It does seem that a lot of intuitives also love Star Wars, but I don't know the statistics.

Star Trek, despite being a very mainstream franchise, has always seemed more "niche."

 

[SearchingforPeace]

* - Also, these people should watch DS9 which has its fair share of epic space battles and multiple interweaving hero's journey arcs.

Babylon 5, from which DS9 was directly plagiarized, is a better series, imo, and explored philosophical issues well.

The original Star Trek series was groundbreaking. Diverse crew, complex issues discussed, etc. I disliked the PC direction the show went in TNG....

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

Star Trek, despite being a very mainstream franchise, has always seemed more "niche."

I did not know this. I only know I love Trek and never much cared for Wars.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

The original Star Trek series was groundbreaking. Diverse crew, complex issues discussed, etc. I disliked the PC direction the show went in TNG....

Boo Hiss. I loved TNG.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Babylon 5, from which DS9 was directly plagiarized, is a better series, imo, and explored philosophical issues well.

The original Star Trek series was groundbreaking. Diverse crew, complex issues discussed, etc. I disliked the PC direction the show went in TNG....

Kind of related to your observation on age and SW fans. (i.e. younger fans tend to prefer prequels):

People who grew up with the Original Series tend to prefer that one.

I grew up on TNG. Picard was my TV dad. I have a soft spot in my heart for TNG. That said, looking back objectively, it was far from perfect. The early seasons felt like a rehash. However, it really came into its own in season 3 and was nearly flawless through season 5. Picard grew as a character after they "humanized" him when he was assimilated by the Borg. Cracks began to show in season 6. I've never related more to characters than I have to Data, Worf, and to a lesser extent Odo from DS9 and Seven from Voyager. EDIT: and how could I forget Spock. I identify with him.

I have always viewed TNG as an improvement on TOS. The main weakness was the lack of conflict of tension between characters, but then that forced the writers to be more creative and look for conflict and tension on a grander scale. It's not too hard to believe though, because on a starship, you'd need everyone to put their differences aside and work as a team.

DS9 may be a ripoff of Babylon 5, but it's possibly the greatest Trek show ever. They introduced more complexity and tension among the characters while retaining the grand scope that made TNG and TOS so fucking great.

Voyager was like a sitcom set in the Star Trek universe minus the laugh track. View it as such and it actually is a pretty good show.

Enterprise had high ambitions but ultimately resorted to rehashing tropes, villains, and plots from the previous Treks (arguably TNG, DS9 and Voyager also did this, however). It didn't really become interesting until the third season. The Xindi arc and the increased focus on the militarization of starfleet in season 3 and 4 was clearly the writers' dealing with a post-9/11 world, and I'm sad they didn't get the chance at more seasons.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

Kind of related to your observation on age and SW fans. (i.e. younger fans tend to prefer prequels):

People who grew up with the Original Series tend to prefer that one.

I was so excited for the new series, but gradually grew very disappointed as it diverge from what I wanted. I stopped watching....

I grew up on TNG. Picard was my TV dad. I have a soft spot in my heart for TNG. That said, looking back objectively, it was far from perfect. The early seasons felt like a rehash. However, it really came into its own in season 3 and was nearly flawless through season 5. Picard grew as a character after they "humanized" him when he was assimilated by the Borg. Cracks began to show in season 6. I've never related more to characters than I have to Data, Worf, and to a lesser extent Odo from DS9 and Seven from Voyager.

An INTP relating to Data? Shocking!

I have always viewed TNG as an improvement on TOS. The main weakness was the lack of conflict of tension between characters, but then that forced the writers to be more creative and look for conflict and tension on a grander scale. It's not too hard to believe though, because on a starship, you'd need everyone to put their differences aside and work as a team.

But the lack of internal drama was boring......

DS9 may be a ripoff of Babylon 5, but it's possibly the greatest Trek show ever. They introduced more complexity and tension among the characters while retaining the grand scope that made TNG and TOS so fucking great.

Exactly.

It might be the best series, but fwiw is less original. Paramount did plan to put Babylon 5 in the Star Trek universe but then just took the story and making it their own version of it.

And Babylon showed that you didn't need to be limited by the Star Trek universe to do a good SF series, but Firefly and other shows did that as well.

Ultimately, the Star Trek universe has its basis in a 2 year TV show from the 60s, which really limited the things at times. Its longevity is amazing given that (long live syndication!)

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

I was so excited for the new series, but gradually grew very disappointed as it diverge from what I wanted. I stopped watching....

It's all a matter of personal preference. I thought it was better when it wasn't trying to be TOS 2.0. The difference in tone can be chalked up to the changes in management as the show progressed. Early on there were a fair number of Original series veterans running it.

An INTP relating to Data? Shocking!

I've also seen Worf occasionally typed as INTP. Most say ISTJ because of the hardass demeanor and strict adherance to tradition, but I could probably make an argument for him as an INTP even if I didn't personally agree.

But the lack of internal drama was boring......

Agreed. It was also more episodic, making character arcs less important. I'd call it a situation-driven show, whereas DS9 was character-drive. TOS was a balance of the two. That's why the best characters are Worf and Data, because they are such fish-out-of-water types. The rest were boring, save for Picard. Another Geordi episode? SNORE. Although I enjoy Riker episodes because he always gets placed in uncomfortable situations. There's some satisfaction to be had in seeing such a by-the-book, straightlaced guy getting thrown into awkward scenarios.

My biggest complaint with TOS is that the background characters never got to be more than background characters. It was essentially the Kirk Spock hour with occasional emphasis on McCoy and Scotty. Ever notice when Scotty calls Kirk Jim in "Mirror Mirror?" That was always weird but also suggests another dynamic between the two that was rarely explored.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

I've hijacked another SW thread with Trek talk. Why does this always happen to me? [MENTION=1180]whatever[/MENTION] we may need a trek discussion thread for this.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

BTW The Inner Light is possibly the greatest one hour episode ever written for ANY SERIES EVER.

 

[Cellmold]

So it sounds like a confirmation of the S and N demographic I stated with Wars vs Trek.

I say Bond because S and N types both like it, but I think N types can become more loyal to it. There are a lot of twists and turns in it that S types might not care as much for. Puns also.

I no loadz uv peepol who luv B0nd n Stur Truk, who d3f arnt N tipes. Cud b3 cultral tho.

Bt den, dat defeets ur punt az w3el.