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I don't know. We can talk about it more after you finish based on where the series goes; but when you see these THINGS pop out of Walt earlier in the series -- like, "Where in God's name did that come from?" -- it makes you strongly consider that while on the surface he was very civilized and defanged and sensitive in the beginning, underneath it appears he had been cultivating this persona of bitterness and emptiness and disappointment -> anger -> for a long long long time.
Parts of Season 1 almost reminded me of "Fight Club", for those reasons. Like he was being forced to live in this overly tame world, and was finally given a chance to break free from it. I wonder what the reasoning was, for not making Walt's background a bit clearer. We aren't given a lot of information, and the information we get is conflicting and often delivered by unreliable data sources (e.g. Walt and Gretchen).
Yeah I definitely am wondering that as well -- not to mention, why did he get with Skyler? Seems like he and Gretchen would have been a better fit, personality-wise.
Sometimes when my roommate and I are watching the show, one of us will ask the other how it's possible that those two people are responsible for creating Walt Jr., who at this point seems to lack most of his parents' flaws: manipulativeness, selfishness, passive-aggression, guile. Wouldn't surprise me if the show's creators chose to name him Walt Jr. in part because of that irony. (Plus the fact that he's a good symbol of Walt Sr.'s desperate need to leave a legacy.)
Parts of Season 1 almost reminded me of "Fight Club", for those reasons. Like he was being forced to live in this overly tame world, and was finally given a chance to break free from it. I wonder what the reasoning was, for not making Walt's background a bit clearer. We aren't given a lot of information, and the information we get is conflicting and often delivered by unreliable data sources (e.g. Walt and Gretchen).
yes, cancer was really a "catalyst," and he says in S1E1, "I'm... awake!" He's finally alive, or at least feeling it, after years of just kind of going through the motions.
But change can be explosive and even destructive. You just never know until you undergo some of it.
Yeah I definitely am wondering that as well -- not to mention, why did he get with Skyler? Seems like he and Gretchen would have been a better fit, personality-wise.
I don't know. Gretchen is more similar to him, although no doubt Walt sees himself as superior. Skyler was waitressing somewhere near Walt was working at the Los Alamos Laboratory and that's how they met -- Walt decided he was into her and thus slowly 'machinated' meeting her by doing the same crossword puzzles she was until they hit things off. He is 10-11 years older than her.
It's almost like he abandoned this old world of his -- disillusioned somehow? -- and suddenly went for Skyler because he was enticed by the differences, and now he resents it after he has lived this "normal human" life out rather than remaining in research science.
Also notice that Walt seems to like conflict now, he's very willful. Gretchen really comes off as mousy and very accommodating (even if underneath she has some resilience), unlike Skyler who is definitely willing and often does stir up shit when she doesn't get her way. I think Walt likes a challenge on some level, he might even need it.
Sometimes when my roommate and I are watching the show, one of us will ask the other how it's possible that those two people are responsible for creating Walt Jr., who at this point seems to lack most of his parents' flaws: manipulativeness, selfishness, passive-aggression, guile. Wouldn't surprise me if the show's creators chose to name him Walt Jr. in part because of that irony. (Plus the fact that he's a good symbol of Walt Sr.'s desperate need to leave a legacy.)
Yeah, and Walt keeps taking it hard when he calls himself "Flynn" instead of "Junior."
Which is interesting when you think about Walt's relationship with Holly. I think he generally loves her without the expectations or baggage; I would go so far as to say, after seeing the whole series, that he probably actually loves her the most purely out of how he loves anyone on the show. (Which is still flawed, but... he comes the closest with her.)
I can actually relate to a lot of what you've said, personally. My mom is a decent person, but she and my dad were a total mess and both horrible at the relationship/marriage thing when I was growing up. Like, seriously, you'd wonder how their kids would have ended up -- but both my sister and I grew up in that environment and yet are far more stable and perceptive than my parents were. I think it either makes or breaks you. Walt Jr. is definitely one of the "best" people on the show. I think with him, Walt and Skyler were still decent enough to parent him right without letting their own crap mess it up, at least until Walt turned 50; their issues seem less parental ones and more interpersonal ones (like equal-level relationships).
[MENTION=7]Jennifer[/MENTION] yeah, but it depends. I mean, even a fantasy novel can be "realistic" according to its own rules. I'm thinking more about plot flaws.
[MENTION=7]Jennifer[/MENTION] yeah, but it depends. I mean, even a fantasy novel can be "realistic" according to its own rules. I'm thinking more about plot flaws.
The thread is about the show... all aspects of the show. If you want to discuss plot flaws, then discuss plot flaws. You don't need anyone's permission.
Well, I played through and only have the final three episodes to go.
The series is even more cohesive when you watch it the second time. There are a lot of images, lines, situations, and visual blocking that is repeated throughout the series.
There seems to be a lot of arguing about Walt and how someone can enjoy a character who acts despicably. I think the largest confusion over Walter is that in some situations he actually "does the right thing" but then turns right around and does something horrific, leaving the audience unclear of who they are looking at, doing a riff on the Heisenberg principle of wave/particle duality (or, as Hank puts it in "Blood Money," "I don't know who you are. I don't even know who I'm talking to.")
[MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION] mentioned (I think) that it's pretty amazing how GOOD that Flynn/Walt Jr is [interestingly, it's Walt Jr. who expresses duality of identity like his dad, but in an open and non-duplicitous way?], as a person, considering his parents. The thing is that, despite how horrific Walt is in many ways, and how bad Skylar becomes at times, they actually parent Flynn correctly, they say and do all the right stuff and provide sound advice to him, parent to child. The issue is that some of the best things that Walt says are based on lies; he is "working" his son and/or using sound advice to deflect intruision into his affairs. The funny thing is that Walt Jr. tells him at least once (after he is beaten up) that the moments when he was open and vulnerable are actually the best moments of their relationships; but Walter must maintain control, and this precludes honesty and vulnerability. Despite being a good teacher, he uses his "teacher/parent" roles as ways to maintain control (expressed especially through his twisted relationship with Jesse) and thus taints what could have been a positive experience where he could have given of himself to his student(s) and children.
What I see in the large scheme is that Walt is capable of being a wonderful human being when he has control; but when his control slips, his lack of morality becomes apparent and he does whatever he needs to do in order to regain control and make things happen how he wishes. Worse, he not only lies to others but to himself; he is the King of Rationalization. Even when these rationalizations are thrown in his face, he seems oblivious to them or unwilling to hear them. (For example, literally Walt's entire argument for what he had Jesse do at the end of Season 3 is repeated by Todd as an argument to WALT in Season 5 to justify something TODD just did. It's almost lifted verbatim right out of Walt's mouth. But Walt chooses not to remember, and instead blunders onwards...)
There are so many times I want to scream STFU at the screen, when Walter goes off on yet another embarrassing series of lies, rationalizations, manipulations, etc. And it's at its worst when people call him on his lies and he persists anyway, saying many many "good" things in all the RIGHT ways, like an innocent man would, distorting people's ability to perceive the truth and taking advantage of their desire to be fair, give him a chance, believe he could change... and yet the whole time the audience knows he is lying, and lying horrifically. It turns all the gold to crap.
And that sequence of episodes after the end of Season 4, when Skylar realizes how far Walter will go to "win" and becomes utterly terrified of him (a callback to "I am the one who knocks"), and he is SO lost in his own lies that he still tries to wheedle and rationalize and appeal to her, where the reality is that she wants to vomit whenever he comes near her; when he lies in bed and kisses her on the shoulders and offers her patent reassurances while she stares away from him barely able to avoid a breakdown, I just felt my skin crawl. He was saying all the "right" things, but in context it made the "right things" far worse than all the overtly wrong things.
Some of the things Walt does:
- Lets Jane die; later, tells Jesse he did this just to hurt him as badly as possible.
- Misses the birth of his daughter to make a meth deal.
- Uses one of Gus's rivals to suicide in a way that kills Gus as well, and does it by setting off a bomb in a nursing home. (Note he first takes this bomb into an actual HOSPITAL.)
- Gets Jesse to murder Gail.
- Poisons a kid Jesse loves just to get Jesse to help him kill Gus.
- Forces Jesse to try to kill the junkie couple.
- Kills Mike and masterminds the death of all Mike's men in jail.
- Puts his children at risk, and lies repeatedly to his son.
- Drives into traffic, with Hank on the impact side of the car, just to get Hank off his scent.
- Lies to Hank about Marie being in an accident, just to avoid being caught, resulting in Jesse's beating.
- Discloses personal information in his lies, to get people off his scent -- like telling Marie about Skylar's affair.
- Kills Lydia and Jack and his men.
- Gets three women deported after bribing them to help him clean.
- Emotionally abuses Skylar (along with all the lies); ends up leaving her with few options, so she ends up helping him.
- Creates the "confession" that pins the meth crimes on Hank -- a brilliantly horrific performance, so different in intent from his first "real" confession in the pilot.
The show really leaves you with a variety of conflicting emotions because it really is the anti-hero western, except the bad guy isn't just a guy who makes waves socially -- he really actually does a lot of horrific stuff by the end, while meanwhile hiding in plain sight and doing some things that are good on the surface. The guy in the black hat [who happens to be named White and is represented by the white king on the chessboard] proceeds on this life of crime, losing bits of humanity (or revealing bits of his inherent inhumanity), all while being chased by the coarse guy in the white hat, things escalating, games playing out, lie built upon life... leading to a final endgame and showdown, with loyalties played against loyalties and everyone in the cast (well, whoever survives) eventually forced to choose sides.
And then of course, the man in black gets sent into exile after losing his empire and family and money and reputation ... whereupon, realizing he's dying for real, rides back into town one last time to conclude his revenge fantasy on the folks who murdered the men who stole his money, killed his BIL who ironically was the guy in the white hat, and still threaten his family. This is classic western -- the outlaw who wipes out the other outlaws and thus acts as a "force of good" even if some of it is part of his own self-interest. This ending really leaves the emotions in a jumbled state, at series end. The horrid human being ends up being true to himself, embraces some of his wrongdoings, makes amends in the only way left to him... and so it's all he can do and yet isn't NEARLY good enough because he has also destroyed the lives of so many people. SO many. He has left a trail of devastation everywhere he went, as Jesse notes -- pretty much every interaction he had with Walter White ruined him.
At the end, I'm mostly speechless. I'm reminded of a line from "The Firm," where Abby is talking to her husband Mitch about his lawyer mentor Avery, and she says something to the effect that Avery was kind, and decent, and totally corrupt, and that Mitch could have gotten that way too if he hadn't gotten away. The character of Avery is not nearly as bad as Walter White was here, but it's the same juxtaposition that can leave one speechless... the show leaves you in that desolate wilderness where everything is all jumbled together in a confusing mess.
Kind of like when Walt nods goodbye to Jesse, at the very very end, and Jesse leaves. There is nothing more to be said, or that can be said to make anything better. There's a bit of insight there, and the dynamics between the two have shifted into a better alignment, so that is a positive... but Walter visited SO many horrible things to Jesse that no words can ever make up for it or mean anything. Kind of like when Walt admits to Skylar that he did it all for himself and not for his family; he's finally being honest and self-aware, for once... and she appreciates it on some level... but she can't forgive him or "make amends," there is too much that happened between them and the devastation he wrought is too far-reaching. You can't unbreak the eggs.
My eldest is finally watching the last 2.5 seasons because a friend at college wants him to watch them with her. He says it got better since he jumped back in.
One interesting big line replication I missed:
In the finale, the whole, "TELL ME YOU WANT THIS" bit between Jesse and Walt is duplicated from the episode where Walt tries to get Jesse to leave town, and they meet out in the desert where Jesse thinks Walt is wanting to kill him, Walt gives him a speech, and Jesse calls him on his BS and says to stop working him for once in his life, and says, "Tell me YOU need this," ask him as a FAVOR between friends rather than manipulating him to do it.
"Just drop the whole concerned dad thing and tell me the truth … Just ask me for a favor. Just tell me you don’t give a shit about me, and it’s either this -- it’s either this, or you’ll kill me the same way you killed Mike."
And Walt doesn't stop, he manipulates Jesse by hugging him... and Jesse breaks down because he wants to believe Walt. God. But Walt is just playing long-suffering parent to remain in control of Jesse.
So then we get to the finale, where Walt tells Jesse he wants to kill him, gives him the gun, Jesse says, "Tell me YOU want this," Walt is finally honest and admits he wants it, in essence asking Jesse for the favor... and Jesse says, "Then do it yourself" and thows the gun on the ground.
This one is probably obvious to some, but I was cramming so much episode into such little time on the first past -- the whole series in two weeks -- that some stuff slipped my mind.
I think he's totally wrong on Walt Jr when he says it's the worst thing that could happen to Walt Sr; in actuality, the worst thing that could happen with Walt Jr DID happen... he despises his father to the degree he won't talk to him and wants him to die. Losing his son by someone else killing him would have devastated Walt; having his own son loathe and reject him forever is far worse.
Hour-long podcast with Vince Gilligan, from before the last eight episodes:
[Around 21 minutes, Gilligan begins to explain when he thinks the "turning point" is, at least where Gilligan realized who Walt was and no longer could identify/agree with his decision(s).] Vince Gilligan » JCCSF Podcasts
Oh, something to discuss: One of the "unrealistic" parts of the show is that it does not really ever present in detail the impact of meth use upon the social user base. Wendy is about as close as one gets, but she's also still seen as "stable" if hardened and strung out, and also she's a prostitute and uses other drugs as well, so it's not necessarily "the meth" that gets blamed.
There are at least two reasons I can perceive as to why this happens:
1. Focus. The show's focus is actually on the negative impact not of using but of being part of the production and distribution chain. Maybe they don't get strung out on the drug and they're the victimizers, but at the same time the social and emotional and legal consequentials of their behavior lead them in different paths of self-destruction.
2. Empathy. The audience would find it much harder to empathize with the characters if we were repeatedly subjected to the actual outcomes of their behavior. But then again, they are ALSO insulated. Walter never really sees people doing the drugs he makes. Skyler's encounter with Ted at the end of their storyline is brutal to both of them. Jesse can't really deal with his own choices, they emotionally devastate him -- although here is probably the least realistic since he doesn't seem to have any major long term effects from meth use nor has friends who appear who seem physically destroyed by it (except for the two junkies in Peekaboo).
Meth is pretty devastating. It produces a 10-12 hour high, versus a much shorter one (1 hour?) from cocaine; the high can also involve paranoia, which coupled with the long high can result in behavior leading to accident or death. It works on dopamine receptors in such a way that the high it produces can be 5-6x higher than cocaine and the body's highest possible "natural high," and so there's an obvious compulsion to go back to it; also, it can quickly burn out the receptors as the brain tries to regulate the highs, causing permanent damage and reducing pleasure altogether.
Meth users do typically lose a lot of their teeth and gums (due to decreased salivation?). They seem to age quickly, in appearance. Some users feel like bugs are crawling under the skin, leading to leasions and open sores as they scratch at the areas. Since more drug is needed for later highs, all money ends up going towards meth eventually.
Turns out it's sold in various countries, including Thailand. American meth labs are very reduced in quantity from what they were, but that's because Mexican cartel has managed to create it more cheaply, with higher quality, and smuggles it along the older preestablished drug lines. Apparently now in 2014, the Mexican product is VERY high quality and base their creation on phenylacetone versus the pseudoephedrine typically used in American home labs. Some form of the drug itself has actually been around for 100 years or more, it's just that it really took off when cold medicines because far more plentiful near the end of the 20th century in the US.
Anyway, just like in westerns where you don't see the fallout on families from civilians getting shot or what happens when all their horses are stolen, etc., you don't really see the end result of the meth production here. The scope of the show is on the backend -- the negative impact on the producers and distributors.
(It also gives more credence to Hank's hatred/disdain for the people in the drug trade, as he's seen the actual hands-on devastation of meth use and how easily it can hook people... although he also seems to treat junkies like crap as well.)
^ I agree. Though I do think they strategically use the consequences of meth addiction, to remind the main characters and the audience of just what they're getting into. "Just FYI, everybody: THIS is what their 'business' is about. THIS is what they're creating."
Examples:
1) The "Peekaboo" episode
2) Jesse's parents
3) The house where Jesse stays when he's depressed/in mourning, in season 2
^ I agree. Though I do think they strategically use the consequences of meth addiction, to remind the main characters and the audience of just what they're getting into. "Just FYI, everybody: THIS is what their 'business' is about. THIS is what they're creating."
Examples:
1) The "Peekaboo" episode
2) Jesse's parents
3) The house where Jesse stays when he's depressed/in mourning, in season 2
Yeah, those are good examples and really the few that I can remember (I mentioned the junkie couple). The thing with Jesse's parents is that they're not presented in a good light; I had initial sympathy for them, but their "no prisoners" attitude (leading them to misjudge Jesse early on and be blind to their other "good" son's pot use) kind of lead to you wanting to tell them to lighten up... and then Jesse getting the house at half-price is seen as "them getting what they deserve" for being so cold to him. It's kind of the same with the Schwartzes who really don't do anything 'wrong' through all their earlier appearances; they can be a bit superficial in places, but Walt really does take advantage of them as part of his lies and Gretchen has a really valid bone to pick with him (along with his ditching their relationship for no explained reason) ... but in the finale we're all kind of amused by what goes down, at their expense, simply because they seem to have written Walt out of the company history in order to protect their stock price.
The thing with Jesse's parents is that they're not presented in a good light; I had initial sympathy for them, but their "no prisoners" attitude (leading them to misjudge Jesse early on and be blind to their other "good" son's pot use) kind of lead to you wanting to tell them to lighten up... and then Jesse getting the house at half-price is seen as "them getting what they deserve" for being so cold to him.
I had a lot of sympathy for his parents. I saw them as attempting, imperfectly, to establish boundaries with a son who has proven time and time and time again that he's a liar and a junkie and not someone who can be trusted. I understood why his dad was cold and wary, even when he saw Jesse cleaned up and drug free. It takes a lot of time to gain that trust back.
At the same time, it's important, when your loved one is an addict, to remain open-hearted even while you're establishing those boundaries. So I did still think that revenge scene was satisfying.
I had a lot of sympathy for his parents. I saw them as attempting, imperfectly, to establish boundaries with a son who has proven time and time and time again that he's a liar and a junkie and not someone who can be trusted. I understood why his dad was cold and wary, even when he saw Jesse cleaned up and drug free. It takes a lot of time to gain that trust back.
... yeah, and I think that's what they were trying to convey. It introduced a mental conundrum for me -- "Your kid is an addict who MEANS WELL but at the same time has failed repeatedly and you can no longer trust him. What do you do?" That's such a difficult line to walk as a parent and as a person, due to how it forces you to live in a raw and painful place, so I can't say I am trying to blame them when I say my experience of them is that they eventually veered off the side of frustration and became cynical as in the scenes where Jesse was interacting with them, he actually was trying to be authentic, and some of their assumptions about him finally happened to be wrong.
... yet, if you step back and look at the big picture, their son WAS producing meth, he WAS still doing some drug-binging now and then (he uses the house he buys from them for wild drug binge parties at a point or two), and he does some other awful things. It's cold consolation to say, "But Jesse didn't mean to, he was trying so hard to break out!" when he still was doing all those things.
Yet audience sympathy does paint Jesse as a favorite. People say, "He's the soul/conscience of the cast." In the interviews I listened to with Gilligan, he doesn't like to create didactic moral dramas... he just likes to throw everything on the table and shake it all out to its natural conclusions, even if he has personal opinions on what is happening. You kind of have to live in this mental space with people like Jesse who are really struggling in terms of their actual souls and defying labels or actually wearing multiple ones. (Even Jesse condemns himself near the end, when he confesses his real reasons for attending group, because he's sick of the facilitator exonerating all forms of immorality to create a safe space... If Jesse cannot be judged, who then CAN be? Is EVERYTHING okay to do regardless of how it hurts people?)
I guess one can say Jesse has a soul simply because he actively tries to break out a few times (and backslides), and is the most tormented of the cast over what he has done. Also, his love for kids and his passion to protect them goes a long way... but it's just crazy since it can be young adults / teens who get hooked on meth. Skinny Pete and Badger, despite being druggies, only seem to show the positive end (aside from being kinda mentally addled) rather than the negative.
At the same time, it's important, when your loved one is an addict, to remain open-hearted even while you're establishing those boundaries. So I did still think that revenge scene was satisfying.
I gotta say, it did feel good to see him pull up, have them tell him to get lost, and then take out the keys and walking to HIS house as they stand there in stunned disbelief. You can almost hear him yell, "Yeah, MY house, bitches!"
For Postlude character wrapups:
- I picture a cleanshaven Jesse out in the backyard of his cabin in Alaska, drawing animals contentedly in his sketchpad... and totally clean.
- I picture Brock, now a young man, hiking along in the New Mexico outback, and stumbling across six black sealed barrels.
- Unfortunately, I'd like to imagine the kids, but ... tragedy will always kind of haunt them.
It's no secret that Breaking Bad has turned Albuquerque into a tourist destination over the past several years. You can buy baggies of blue rock candy that resemble Walt and Jessie's cook, the same concoction that was used as a prop during the show's first two seasons. You can swing by the Crossroads Motel, where Wendy turns tricks in season 1, or take your car through Octopus Car Wash (A1A Car Wash on the show), which the White family used as a drug front. Most fans, however, just want to see Walt's house. Unfortunately, as Vince Gilligan noted on yesterday's Better Call Saul insider podcast, some "jagoffs" are reenacting the infamous pizza-on-the-roof scene and being rude to the old woman who lives there.
"There is nothing original or funny or cool about throwing a pizza on this lady's roof," Gilligan said. "It's been done before. You're not the first."
"And if I catch you doing it, I will hunt you down," Jonathan Banks added...
I’m a latecomer to this series - just began S3. Very addictive, of course, and also depressing - the two are not mutually exclusive in storyland. Even thought about making Heisenberg my username. There’s a lot to like about this show, and I’m sure much of it has already been discussed here (I don’t want to read too much of this thread bc of spoilers). So let me just say that Gilligan’s early X-Files refs (The Erlenmeyer Flask, etc.) made me feel right at home.
S3 was the best so far. Good to see Skyler get on board, using her bookkeeping expertise to assist with the money laundering. Next season they have to work on getting Hank on board lol. First they’ll have to break it to him very gently that his medical bills and physical therapy were paid for with drug money, which is what got him shot in the first place. But hey, no worries.
S3 was the best so far. Good to see Skyler get on board, using her bookkeeping expertise to assist with the money laundering. Next season they have to work on getting Hank on board lol. First they’ll have to break it to him very gently that his medical bills and physical therapy were paid for with drug money, which is what got him shot in the first place. But hey, no worries.
Glad you liked Season 3. It's actually been one of the few series that typically got better and better the longer it ran, although probably most people think Season 4 is the best, Season 5a is still good but doesn't raise the bar as much (it's arguable, I suppose), and then 5b pushes towards a great conclusion.
I did like how Skyler became more complicit. She was doing it to try to keep the family stable and otherwise was a no-win, but still... it adds some moral complexity.
It was pretty harrowing. Apparently Jesse either shot Gale or shot into the wall. But I wondered if he instead shot someone else who appeared at the last second in the background. I’m also guessing Walt eventually will depose Chicken Man and take over the enterprise. Not sure how many seasons that will take.
It was pretty harrowing. Apparently Jesse either shot Gale or shot into the wall. But I wondered if he instead shot someone else who appeared at the last second in the background. I’m also guessing Walt eventually will depose Chicken Man and take over the enterprise. Not sure how many seasons that will take.
Heh. Well, I can't/won't say anything. But yeah. Season 4 will be fun for you.
I really like Gale, I think he's pretty cool. I'm sitting here at work looking at a fascimile of the page from his notebook with "The Learn'd Astronomer" on it. I printed it out and hung it on my bulletin board some months back.
It's also interesting to compare Hank vs Walt. I guess you remember "One Minute" (great episode!). Hank screws up bad at times, he's a tarnished hero, but when the chips are down, he doesn't hold himself above the law. Meanwhile, Walt might be more open-minded about some things, but when the chips are down, he will do what he has to in order to survive and/or avoid culpability. It's an important contrast that only deepens over time.
