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Entertainers and the Benefit of the Doubt

Qlip

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I don't want to dislike these people, but they gave me no choice. By law, they're not guilty of anything (so far) but I know I've had lower opinions of people who I suspected to do low and perfectly legal things.

Michael Jackson
Woody Allen
Bill Cosby
 

five sounds

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i think it's good to keep perspective on celebrities as human. people idolize artists and entertainers for what they contribute, but i think the kind of freedom that comes with the public's wildly blind approval can give people a feeling of license to do whatever they want.

there are tons of unfamous people who contribute so much good to the world, and are held to a higher moral standard only because they don't have celebrity.

also, the flip side, entertainers who are thrown into the fire by the public (think lindsay lohan) because of of their wayward wandering get that kind of attention disproportionately as well. i don't entirely blame famous people for having more messed up patterns of behavior because i really believe they live in some weird bubble so far removed from reality that it actually is much more difficult to remain grounded and feel accountable for their actions. they should still be held accountable to the law, and the degree to which they're not just makes that bubble's membrane stronger and stronger.

it's a messed up existence to be famous, and i really don't think it's good for the average person.
 

Lady_X

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agreed nic.

What did bill Cosby do? And I don't know if I buy the woody Allen thing. Mia may be full of shit. And if so omg what an awful human being to do that to him and to their daughter.
 

Qlip

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agreed nic.

What did bill Cosby do? And I don't know if I buy the woody Allen thing. Mia may be full of shit. And if so omg what an awful human being to do that to him and to their daughter.

There's a link to an article on his name in the OP. LadyX, judge as you like. I guess I just think there's something very wrong with how we view celebrities, they have so much power and are given so much license to people who by profession deal in presenting an image of themselves. I guess I'm opting out of the Cult of Celebrity, and looking at them as people. People with the power to get away with a lot, and who often do get away with a lot

My first instinct on watching Manhattan was that Woody was skeezy, with the 16 year old Muriel Hemmingway as a love interest and how the relationship and her character was portrayed. His other works brought me around and my blinders went on to his personal activities. I think with a lot of art, this doesn't matter as much, it should be judged on its own accord, but in the case of Celebrity part of the art is their image. I starting to feel this is very wrong.

As [MENTION=18819]five sounds[/MENTION] mentioned there is also the opposite effect, where we judge celebs harshly. It seems that as soon as you're on TV, you are put to a different set of standards altogether. All these young train wrecks can't have their teenage spaz outs in their privacy, no kid should live their lives on national news, even *if* they want to.

My first awareness of this was back when Chelsea Clinton had the only claim to fame as being the President's teenage daughter. All of a sudden this gave the world license to judge her as people feel free to judge anybody in the news. Not only did this seem wrong, the standards were completely different. So many people called her ugly, when A) she was a perfectly cute girl by all normal measures and B) WTF does that matter??.

The people of the world who aren't scrambling to eat and find a roof to live under, keep this celebrity universe in shrines in their homes on glowing screens put on pedestals. I'm not saying that the entertainment industry doesn't have anything valuable to offer, but I think it and its idols need to be viewed in a more reasonable context.
 

Lady_X

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There's a link to an article on his name in the OP. LadyX, judge as you like. I guess I just think there's something very wrong with how we view celebrities, they have so much power and are given so much license to people who by profession deal in presenting an image of themselves. I guess I'm opting out of the Cult of Celebrity, and looking at them as people. People with the power to get away with a lot, and who often do get away with a lot

My first instinct on watching Manhattan was that Woody was skeezy, with the 16 year old Muriel Hemmingway as a love interest and how the relationship and her character was portrayed. His other works brought me around and my blinders went on to his personal activities. I think with a lot of art, this doesn't matter as much, it should be judged on its own accord, but in the case of Celebrity part of the art is their image. I starting to feel this is very wrong.

As [MENTION=18819]five sounds[/MENTION] mentioned there is also the opposite effect, where we judge celebs harshly. It seems that as soon as you're on TV, you are put to a different set of standards altogether. All these young train wrecks can't have their teenage spaz outs in their privacy, no kid should live their lives on national news, even *if* they want to.

My first awareness of this was back when Chelsea Clinton had the only claim to fame as being the President's teenage daughter. All of a sudden this gave the world license to judge her as people feel free to judge anybody in the news. Not only did this seem wrong, the standards were completely different. So many people called her ugly, when A) she was a perfectly cute girl by all normal measures and B) WTF does that matter??.

The people of the world who aren't scrambling to eat and find a roof to live under, keep this celebrity universe in shrines in their homes on glowing screens put on pedestals. I'm not saying that the entertainment industry doesn't have anything valuable to offer, but I think it and its idols need to be viewed in a more reasonable context.

oh i completely agree. i just don't have whatever piece that is that makes me glorify the celebrity or view them as different. i know it's all made up bs. i get that all it is is having a sense of "knowing and being familiar with" people you don't actually know...which in itself is weird ish but i don't treat them differently or see them differently...except for the odd feeling of knowing who they are without them knowing me.

but yeah i think they're should be laws against the paparazzi stalking them and taking pics. i think they ought to be allowed to walk around without getting hounded. no one should have to live like that...and it's kinda sick to want it or contribute to it imo.
 

chickpea

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I figure as long as I'm pirating their material and not paying to see it, it's okay to enjoy their work regardless. Like I watched Blue Jasmine and liked it, but I wouldn't have seen it in a theater and I was looking for fucked up elements of his character that sneak in. Like that movie he made with Larry David was pretty creepy and gross.

I guess I did pay to see R. Kelly trapped in the closet at a movie theater, and it was so worth it :( I still love him even though I know I shouldn't.
 

Lady_X

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just read the bill cosby thing yah i had no idea about any of that but i can't say i'm terribly surprised. he seems like a narcissistic pervy type to me.

and the thing about woody may be true always kind of thought it was until just reading some things last week and wondering if it was actually possible that mia is just completely screwed up.

but...marrying your gfs daughter doesn't seem like a viable option to most normal minded folks so it certainly makes it easier to believe....but...just yuck! your daughter?? a tiny lil girl...i mean how is it possible that ever happens?? i don't want to believe it.
 
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I figure as long as I'm pirating their material and not paying to see it, it's okay to enjoy their work regardless. Like I watched Blue Jasmine and liked it, but I wouldn't have seen it in a theater and I was looking for fucked up elements of his character that sneak in. Like that movie he made with Larry David was pretty creepy and gross.

I think his character in Manhattan dates a 17 year old...
 

Qlip

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I think he dates a 17 year old in 'Manhattan'...

He doesn't just date, he has an adult/mature/sophisticated sexual relationship with her. I read Lolita, which has a much more dire situation and I found great value in it. What I found disturbing is that Muriel Hemmingway's character was one dimensional, and not even a hint of the age she was portraying, or anything more than a superficial examination of such a relationship was part of her characterization. She seemed like a justification, a wish fulfillment. This was my read on it before I was aware of Allen's history.
 

prplchknz

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Here's what happens, people have always needed someone to blame for the state of the world. Humans are rarely happy with how the world is, they're always finding a reason why society is crashing. and I'm not saying it's not, but with people constantly in the public eye it allows them to blame someone else for the world's decline, without accepting the responibility they played. Like you can hate a celebrity, that's fine celebrities are just people, but by giving them attention, even negative attention it keeps them in the public eye. If you were to ignore the bullshit certain celebrities do they'd probably quit doing those things. especially the ones seeking attention, unless you know they're very very very sick and aren't doing it for attention, but I think most actors and actresses have borderline,histronic traits. I'm not condoning the behaviors, just that I ignore celebrity culture because a.)I don't care and b.)putting people no matter how rich or how famous is a recipe for disaster
 

TickTock

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I don't want to dislike these people, but they gave me no choice. By law, they're not guilty of anything (so far) but I know I've had lower opinions of people who I suspected to do low and perfectly legal things.

Michael Jackson
Woody Allen
Bill Cosby

So what you're saying is that although you don't know that they are guilty you ostracize them because there is so much negative attention towards them in the media? Thinking Fast and Slow has a lot of insightful information about how we are influenced by such things.
 

Qlip

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So what you're saying is that although you don't know that they are guilty you ostracize them because there is so much negative attention towards them in the media? Thinking Fast and Slow has a lot of insightful information about how we are influenced by such things.

Thinking fast and slow? Legal judgement has nothing to do with it. The legal system does not faithfully indicate guilt or innocence, and neither does being in legal standing make you somebody that I want to associate with. And media exposure has nothing to do with it, these are all people that up until now I've given the benefit of the doubt though I've heard stories about them. For a counter example, I'm still a defender of Lewis Carroll, although the media is not on his posthumous side.

I'm asking myself now, why am I inclined to want to think positively about these people, when I wouldn't do so for people who I associate with on a daily basis with similar patterns in their behavior. This is what I'm saying.
 

TickTock

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Thinking fast and slow? Legal judgement has nothing to do with it. The legal system does not faithfully indicate guilt or innocence, and neither does being in legal standing make you somebody that I want to associate with. And media exposure has nothing to do with it, these are all people that up until now I've given the benefit of the doubt though I've heard stories about them. For a counter example, I'm still a defender of Lewis Carroll, although the media is not on his posthumous side.

I'm asking myself now, why am I inclined to want to think positively about these people, when I wouldn't do so for people who I associate with on a daily basis with similar patterns in their behavior. This is what I'm saying.

It's a book, highly recommend.

Yes I agree with you on legal standing, though I didn't know that was your view.

Yes I see. The halo effect perhaps… It is interesting though, that entertainers are the modern cultural icons. How many people could name people who are effecting real positive changes in the world?
 
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