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SCi-Fi vs Fantasy: What is the point?

Magic Poriferan

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With time I've increasingly come to question the entire nature and purpose of the separation of the genres Sci-Fi and Fantasy. They do not seem to be differentiated by definitions so much as nebulous collection of conventions. Furthermore, it seems like almost anything that is considered one could easily be considered the other, and the key elements that make a person decide which a story is often strike me as trivial and superficial. Yet, once a person has decided which of the two genres a story is, it seems to dramatically change their expectations particularly in the sense that people suspend much less disbelief for Sci-Fi than they do for Fantasy. In my own opinion, the way people judge stories based on these genres can strike me as unfair (for example, a story which I figure might just as well be considered Fantasy is considered Sci-Fi, and suddenly treated much more harshly for obvious unscientific events).

What do you, dear reader, consider the difference between Sci-Fi and Fantasy as genres, and what purpose do you think this distinction serves?
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Code:
Science Ficton:
        Alternate version of reality based on made-up science. Sometimes, the made up science is very very close to real science, 
                  which gives us hard science fiction. 
        The setting has some degree of technological sophistication that is higher than that of the society in which the author lived. .

Fantasy:
Alternate version of reality based on magic.
The setting is often less technologically sophisticated than the society in which the author lived, but the use of magic allows for things that are not possible in our world.


I can think of at least one famous example that is both, one with a high degree of technological sophistcation and magic.

Of course, you can create "scientific" explanations for things that might also be considered magic. For all intents and purposes, the X-men use magic, but it's described as being based on a "mutation". Or for, instance, give people telepathic powers, and then say that it's not because they've tapped into magic, but orgone energy.

Additionally, it's unclear where steampunk fits in this.
 

Fluffywolf

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I see sci-fi as a subcategory of fantasy, in which science plays a big role and where the focus lies on adhering to universal laws.

Here's an interesting question though. Steampunk, sci-fi or fantasy? I can never make up my mind on that one. :p

Additionally, it's unclear where steampunk fits in this.

Seriously, I did not read your post before making my own post. Funny stuff. :p
 
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WALMART

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Science Fiction is writing of things that have not yet come true. Fantasy is writing of things that never will.


(didn't read OP, fyi)
 

Magic Poriferan

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Would you consider The Lord of the Rings "science fiction"?

I would recognize it as Fantasy right away, but that's because of clothing, weapons, and buildings. I frankly find that a bit superficial for making an important distinction in genre.

Code:
Science Ficton:
        Alternate version of reality based on made-up science. Sometimes, the made up science is very very close to real science, 
                  which gives us hard science fiction. 
        The setting has some degree of technological sophistication that is higher than that of the society in which the author lived. .

Fantasy:
Alternate version of reality based on magic.
The setting is often less technologically sophisticated than the society in which the author lived, but the use of magic allows for things that are not possible in our world.


I can think of at least one famous example that is both, one with a high degree of technological sophistcation and magic.

Of course, you can create "scientific" explanations for things that might also be considered magic. For all intents and purposes, the X-men use magic, but it's described as being based on a "mutation". Or for, instance, give people telepathic powers, and then say that it's not because they've tapped into magic, but orgone energy.

Additionally, it's unclear where steampunk fits in this.

One must think of Arthur C. Clarke's popular statement that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. An interesting consideration is that the technology of 1900 a.d. would probably have been advanced enough to seem like magic to someone from 0500 a.d.. My gripe with hard science fiction is that it really just have a particularly elaborate verisimilitude backing something that is ultimately just as unreal as a wizard conjuring a fireball or a dragon. If any piece of science fiction actually gave a complete and accurate discrimination of a functional technology, then that technology would be real and we'd be using it. So it's really just a question how much of the story's words are spent on fabricating the illusion of realism for the events that take place. And I think you could do this for fantasy anyhow.

Science Fiction is writing of things that have not yet come true. Fantasy is writing of things that never will.


(didn't read OP, fyi)

I disagree with this. Is a man unleashing fire something that will never happen? We have flamethrowers now. Do you protest that a flamethrower does not work the same way as a magic spell? Well, the technologies we have that emulate those previously described in Sci-Fi works never work the same way either.
 

Qlip

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There are things that are definitely Science Fiction, and there are things that are definitely Fantasy, and then there is grey area. Science Fiction is about exploring possibilities, the variables involved are technological and environmental and they're always plausible in the mind of the writer at the time of publication.

Fantasy is about creating new myth, plausibility be damned.
 

93JC

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I would recognize [The Lord of the Rings] as Fantasy right away,

mgJFrmU.gif



Feel free to needlessly complicate it all you like.
 
W

WALMART

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I disagree with this. Is a man unleashing fire something that will never happen? We have flamethrowers now. Do you protest that a flamethrower does not work the same way as a magic spell? Well, the technologies we have that emulate those previously described in Sci-Fi works never work the same way either.


It depends on how you want to go about writing it. Do you give explanation for the powers? Are they realistically grounded in some tangible existence, apart from, "I just can" like some wizard in Harry Potter?


If you're trying to ground the fantastical elements of your story out it's science fiction. If you leave it up to the reader to suspend disbelief of assorted facets it is fantasy. I think it's a pretty basic, easy to grasp, acceptable dichotomy, myself.


(and has been stated, both genres are often crosses of each other - hence genres like "hard science fiction" and "soft science fiction". The Sprawl trilogy is a good example of hard science fiction that introduced many fantastical elements while still remaining one hundred percent grounded in scientific schools of thought.)
 

Magic Poriferan

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mgJFrmU.gif



Feel free to needlessly complicate it all you like.

Would not demolishing the division between the two genres actually be a simplification?

And isn't Sci-Fi in and of itself often about needlessly complicating things? :D

It depends on how you want to go about writing it. Do you give explanation for the powers? Are they realistically grounded in some tangible existence, apart from, "I just can" like some wizard in Harry Potter?


If you're trying to ground the fantastical elements of your story out it's science fiction. If you leave it up to the reader to suspend disbelief of assorted facets it is fantasy. I think it's a pretty basic, easy to grasp, acceptable dichotomy, myself.

But then the question is, what are the limits of plausibility and what explanation is good enough? If I have people doing things often typical of magical incantations, but bother to extensively explain how they do it through processes not unlike extreme versions of the feats accomplished by some monks, is my story Fantasy or Sci-Fi?
 

Qlip

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Would not demolishing the division between the two genres actually be a simplification?

And isn't Sci-Fi in and of itself often about needlessly complicating things? :D

As long as there is a difference between people who want to read Lord of the Rings and find reading Greg Bear distasteful, we need to draw some sort of delineation between the two genres. If you want to simplify to that degree, may as well label things as non-fiction and fiction and never categorize beyond that.
 

Magic Poriferan

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As long as there is a difference between people who want to read Lord of the Rings and find reading Greg Bear distasteful, we need to draw some sort of delineation between the two genres. If you want to simplify to that degree, may as well label things as non-fiction and fiction and never categorize beyond that.

You can lump everything together. You can also infinitely divide everything and call every single piece of work its own genre. This means that distinguishing Sci-Fi and Fantasy is a special distinction that people go out of their way to make as oppose to infinite other possible distinctions. There is presumably some justification for this. But if it's based on the usefulness of such a distinction, I have doubts about it actually being useful enough.
 

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Fantasy usually makes me think of things like magic. Usually the things that are very unlikely (or zero chance) to happen.

Sci-Fi usually makes me think of things that might be possible in some distant future or may of been possible.

One note is like comparing alchemy to super advanced technology in rearranging molecules to form other compounds.

Change shit to gold using Alchemy... change shit to gold using super advanced technology. Ok, both of them sound the same. After all, it can be said that Alchemy is like a proto-science. The difference is that we know that we can't rearrange things with Alchemy by creating a transmutation circle, but we know it MIGHT be possible to rearrange molecules with advanced technology/biology. Even today, we are able to form compounds just by mixing the right elements.

Fantasy is the imagination.

Sci-Fi is the imagination trying to make things into reality.

Here's an interesting question though. Steampunk, sci-fi or fantasy? I can never make up my mind on that one. :p

Steampunk usually makes me think of an alternate Industrial Era. I guess you can say an Industrial era that never went away from steam power. In ways, it is like Western. Doesn't mean it wouldn't have Fantasy or sci-fi elements to it though :)
 
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WALMART

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But then the question is, what are the limits of plausibility and what explanation is good enough? If I have people doing things often typical of magical incantations, but bother to extensively explain how they do it through processes not unlike extreme versions of the feats accomplished by some monks, is my story Fantasy or Sci-Fi?


I'm not sure - what makes black metal different from symphonic metal, or grunge from post grunge, or jazz from swing?


I had Star Wars in mind. The Force is obviously a fantastical element to the universe, according to the original trilogy. But the prequel trilogy paints it in a different light - anyone with a fondness of microorganisms and quantum mechanics can start to view the universe in a whole new, dare I say scientific, manner. It's all on who's critiquing, I guess.
 

Qlip

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But then the question is, what are the limits of plausibility and what explanation is good enough? If I have people doing things often typical of magical incantations, but bother to extensively explain how they do it through processes not unlike extreme versions of the feats accomplished by some monks, is my story Fantasy or Sci-Fi?

It's not so much the plausibility of the effect that is the focus of Sci-Fi, but also whether the aim of the story is to explore what would be different if it were true.
 

Qlip

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You can lump everything together. You can also infinitely divide everything and call every single piece of work its own genre. This means that distinguishing Sci-Fi and Fantasy is a special distinction that people go out of their way to make as oppose to infinite other possible distinctions. There is presumably some justification for this. But if it's based on the usefulness of such a distinction, I have doubts about it actually being useful enough.

There is a philosophical difference between the intents of the archtypical Science Fiction writers and Fantasy writers. Being in several book clubs and being a reader of both and everything in between, I know there are good reasons to have those catagories. Both of them combined already have a name, Speculative Fiction.
 

93JC

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Would not demolishing the division between the two genres actually be a simplification?

And isn't Sci-Fi in and of itself often about needlessly complicating things? :D

There's no need to "demolish the division" and 'simplify' when they are so obviously different, as you so aptly illustrated.

You've answered your own question. Feel free to needlessly complicate it all you like from here on out, it's your time to spend.
 

Magic Poriferan

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It's not so much the plausibility of the effect that is the focus of Sci-Fi, but also whether the aim of the story is to explore what would be different if it were true.

So if I made a story about some time comparable to 1200 A.D, but in a world in which there were magic and a few different races like orcs and elves, but went about exploring the implications that would have for the world in the most logical way I could, would my story be Sci-Fi?

There is a philosophical difference between the intents of the archtypical Science Fiction writers and Fantasy writers. Being in several book clubs and being a reader of both and everything in between, I know there are good reasons to have those catagories. Both of them combined already have a name, Speculative Fiction.

What would some of those reasons be?

There's no need to "demolish the division" and 'simplify' when they are so obviously different, as you so aptly illustrated.

You've answered your own question. Feel free to needlessly complicate it all you like from here on out, it's your time to spend.

When did I illustrate a difference?
 
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