The Mandarin in Iron Man 3: Your opinion? **contains spoilers**

[The Great One]

Before I say anything in this thread, I will say that if you have not seen Iron Man 3 yet, don't post in this thread or even look at it. If you click on the big spoiler box, and haven't seen the movie, it will practically butcher the movie for you, SO DON'T CLICK IT! You have been warned.

I went to go see Iron Man 3 on Saturday, and I was overjoyed to finally see Tony Stark finally face off against his arch nemesis: The Mandarin. The Mandarin was in my opinion, one of the most bad ass villains of all time in the Marvel Comics series and I was really looking forward to seeing him being brought to life on the big screen. The Mandarin is amazing: he is an amazing martial artist, he was a brilliant NTJ strategist, was a scientist, and let's not forget his bad ass 10 rings that are the bread and butter of his power. Oh yes, the 10 rings. The Mandarin found 10 rings in an alien spaceship that gave him 10 incredible powers. These powers included: the ability to create and manipulate ice like Iceman in the X Men, mind control, the ability to shoot lightning, the ability to shoot balls of fire, the ability to manipulate light, he could create a gravitational field, he could levitate, he could create illusions, could manipulate dark energy, had the power to completely disintegrate someone, could manipulate air, could shoot poison blasts, and could create poisonous gas. Damn that's a lot of cool powers!

However, in the movie, we didn't see any of this in the Mandarin. In fact, the Mandarin, Tony Stark's arch nemesis was reduced to just a "paid actor". When I saw this I was completely outraged. This was literally the equivalent of taking "The Joker" and making him just a fake character in the Batman movies. I literally felt ripped off when I walked out of the movie. I felt like this was the ultimate betrayal of Marvel fans, and I felt like this just slapped us all in the face. The worst part, is that it appears that the reason that "The Mandarin" was not portrayed correctly in this movie is because he perpetuated several Chinese Stereotypes. When, I found this out I was fucking pissed! I mean, if they felt like the Mandarin offended too many people, then why didn't they just keep their set up that they had in the beginning of the movie and make him a Jihad extremist like Osama Bin Laden: he could have still been a master strategist, he could have still found the rings, could have still had badass powers, could have still been a genius scientist, and it would have saved the movie in my opinion. However, instead we got a complete butchery of a movie thanks to political correctness.

As you can see the Mandarin pissed me off, what was your opinion of how they portrayed "The Mandarin" in the movie?

 

[Totenkindly]

My opinion of the treatment of the Mandarin:

From a detached and iconoclastic POV, I thought it was hilarious and ballsy -- a twist that just about no one would anticipate. I do admire that.

However, from a narrative POV, I think it diminished the movie and ensured that it would not be one that held much meaning for me. That's the problem with crap like that -- very unique, but detracting from the dramatic arc. The movie now seems gimmicky rather than meaningful and is essentially really just one long action sequence.

Basically, I think this should have been something that came up during brainstorming, everyone gets a laugh --- MAYBE they include it as a Deleted Scene on the Director's Cut -- but otherwise you go with the dramatic undercurrent you've been setting up. It kind of destroyed anywhere meaningful the movie meant to go.

I think it's rather like the ending of the book Hannibal (and the movie, which closely followed the book to its detriment). It was amusing and ballsy, unbelievably so... but it also totally destroyed the possibility of taking the movie seriously.

I have to say that, regardless, Ben Kingsley is a fine actor and played his parts perfectly. I admire an actor who has the capacity for high drama but is so versatile that he can also handle any shift in style you throw at him.

 

[The Great One]

My opinion of the treatment of the Mandarin:

From a detached and iconoclastic POV, I thought it was hilarious and ballsy -- a twist that just about no one would anticipate. I do admire that.

However, from a narrative POV, I think it diminished the movie and ensured that it would not be one that held much meaning for me. That's the problem with crap like that -- very unique, but detracting from the dramatic arc. The movie now seems gimmicky rather than meaningful and is essentially really just one long action sequence.

Basically, I think this should have been something that came up during brainstorming, everyone gets a laugh --- MAYBE they include it as a Deleted Scene on the Director's Cut, but otherwise you go with the dramatic undercurrent you've been setting up. It kind of destroyed anywhere meaningful the movie meant to go.

I think it's rather like the ending of the book Hannibal (and the movie, which closely followed the book to its detriment). It was amusing and ballsy, unbelievably so... but it also totally destroyed the possibility of taking the movie seriously.

I have to say that, regardless, Ben Kingsley is a fine actor and played his parts perfectly. I admire an actor who has the capacity for high drama but is so versatile that he can also handle any shift in style you throw at him.

I think that I would have enjoyed the movie much more if they didn't include the Mandarin at all.

 

[Totenkindly]

I think that I would have enjoyed the movie much more if they didn't include the Mandarin at all.

I think I feel that way as well.

And you also note, importantly, that the Mandarin is an established Marvel villain and one of Iron Man's most dangerous foes, so to fuck with that in the way they did is just going to irk a lot of people...

 

[The Great One]

I think I feel that way as well.

And you also note, importantly, that the Mandarin is an established Marvel villain and one of Iron Man's most dangerous foes, so to fuck with that in the way they did is just going to irk a lot of people...

He isn't just "a villain" he is THE VILLAIN. The Mandarin is Iron Man's arch nemesis. He is literally the equivalent to Lex Luthor to Superman, The Joker to Batman, Red Skull to Captain America, Sinestro to Green Lantern. This was a big deal to play such a cruel joke with such an important character. In fact, the writers originally were going to make the Mandarin the main villain in the first movie but they later dropped that idea. Then, they later made a public announcement that the Mandarin was going to be the villain in the second movie, but it was later dropped again. Finally, they did make him the villain in the 3rd movie but made him into a fucking screen actor! The writers should be shot in the nuts for doing this.

 

[Totenkindly]

He isn't just "a villain" he is THE VILLAIN. The Mandarin is Iron Man's arch nemesis. He is literally the equivalent to Lex Luthor to Superman, The Joker to Batman, Red Skull to Captain America, Sinestro to Green Lantern. This was a big deal to play such a cruel joke with such an important character. In fact, the writers originally were going to make the Mandarin the main villain in the first movie but they later dropped that idea. Then, they later made a public announcement that the Mandarin was going to be the villain in the second movie, but it was later dropped again. Finally, they did make him the villain in the 3rd movie but made him into a fucking screen actor! The writers should be shot in the nuts for doing this.

It honestly just sounds like one big joke.

... although I thought joking/jerking-around was the domain of Batman's arch-nemesis...

 

[The Great One]

It honestly just sounds like one big joke.

... although I thought joking/jerking-around was the domain of Batman's arch-nemesis...

It wasn't a joke to me. They just pissed me off.

 

[Poindexter Arachnid]

Finished watching it several hours ago. Prepare to break out the reading glasses.

On an intellectual level, I actually enjoyed this "twist." The filmmakers deliberately drew attention to the racism connotations that this outdated character inhabits, while mocking the white-bread-tastes-better-than-the-rest demeanor America is notorious for. It also tackled the big elephant in the room (media fear control tactics!) and had massive balls to come to the conclusion it did.

On a narrative level? It doesn't cut the mustard. It's an insult (and not only to comic book fundamentalists, either).


In a way, this should have been the cerebral comic book movie to rival The Dark Knight. Ultimately, what it boils down to is CONFLICT of idealogy...and that was essentially what made The Dark Knight the crowning achievement it is 5 years still. There is no mistake that Mandarin is Iron Man's arch-nemesis--they represent ideas larger than themselves. Back in the day, it was Communism vs. Capitalism but the world has shifted and now it is Radicalism/Extremism vs. Autonomy/Capitalism. Again, The Mandarin is not irrelevant, merely outdated. Either way, the filmmakers got him half right (and sadly they chose the cheap and easy way out with Guy Pearce's blustering Fire Breath shout bore of a character).

It is the obvious route with modern Hollywood: You'll make more money by pandering to the lowest common denominator.
More CGI 'splosions and cheap laughs, please.

 

[ygolo]

I thought it was just a fun action movie. I had no expectations going in, so I was not disappointed.

But if they did essentially reduce Ironman's arch nemesis to a joke/fraud, then this seems pretty stupid overall. I know that it will bring in big numbers the opening weekend, but the comic book fans (I am not one) are what keeps movies like this in theaters for a long time. I am guessing this is not one that they will see over and over in the theater.

 

[The Great One]

Finished watching it several hours ago. Prepare to break out the reading glasses.

On an intellectual level, I actually enjoyed this "twist." The filmmakers deliberately drew attention to the racism connotations that this outdated character inhabits, while mocking the white-bread-tastes-better-than-the-rest demeanor America is notorious for. It also tackled the big elephant in the room (media fear control tactics!) and had massive balls to come to the conclusion it did.

On a narrative level? It doesn't cut the mustard. It's an insult (and not only to comic book fundamentalists, either).


In a way, this should have been the cerebral comic book movie to rival The Dark Knight. Ultimately, what it boils down to is CONFLICT of idealogy...and that was essentially what made The Dark Knight the crowning achievement it is 5 years still. There is no mistake that Mandarin is Iron Man's arch-nemesis--they represent ideas larger than themselves. Back in the day, it was Communism vs. Capitalism but the world has shifted and now it is Radicalism/Extremism vs. Autonomy/Capitalism. Again, The Mandarin is not irrelevant, merely outdated. Either way, the filmmakers got him half right (and sadly they chose the cheap and easy way out with Guy Pearce's blustering Fire Breath shout bore of a character).

It is the obvious route with modern Hollywood: You'll make more money by pandering to the lowest common denominator.
More CGI 'splosions and cheap laughs, please.

Yeah, that's pretty much my conclusion is that they were afraid to truly show the Mandarin as he was because they thought that people would say he was "racist". My question is why couldn't they have given him his original powers and tactical abilities and just made him a Jihad instead? I mean they already watered down "War Machine" and called him "The Iron Patriot", why couldn't they do something similar with The Mandarin? Which brings me to another point....they barely had War Machine in the movie at all....another disappointment.

I thought it was just a fun action movie. I had no expectations going in, so I was not disappointed.

But if they did essentially reduce Ironman's arch nemesis to a joke/fraud, then this seems pretty stupid overall. I know that it will bring in big numbers the opening weekend, but the comic book fans (I am not one) are what keeps movies like this in theaters for a long time. I am guessing this is not one that they will see over and over in the theater.

I am a diehard comic book fan, and if you even tried to give me the movie for free, I wouldn't take it, much less see it again.

 

[Poindexter Arachnid]

Yeah, that's pretty much my conclusion is that they were afraid to truly show the Mandarin as he was because they thought that people would say he was "racist". My question is why couldn't they have given him his original powers and tactical abilities and just made him a Jihad instead? I mean they already watered down "War Machine" and called him "The Iron Patriot", why couldn't they do something similar with The Mandarin? Which brings me to another point....they barely had War Machine in the movie at all....another disappointment.

The filmmakers were making an effort to be "subversive."
They failed miserably.

As for the racist origins of the Mandarin: The meta-deconstruction managed to work to some extent, but sacrificed the immediacy of the Extremis threat by doing so. Like the disconcerting emo-dancing Peter Parker sequences in Spider-Man 3, the movie never managed to pick itself back up again.

 

[Cellmold]

Like the disconcerting emo-dancing Peter Parker sequences in Spider-Man 3, the movie never managed to pick itself back up again.

It's really THAT bad?

I still can't get this horror out of my mind to this day:

 

[Riva]

Like the disconcerting emo-dancing Peter Parker sequences in Spider-Man 3, the movie never managed to pick itself back up again.

It's really THAT bad?

I still can't get this horror out of my mind to this day:

I liked it and I remember my date laughing at it and enjoying Peter's out of character, over the top boyish playfulness. To have a moment of laughter in such a gloomy movie (considering it's a comic) was quite nice.

Huh it took me awhile to remember who my date was.

 

[Cellmold]

I liked it and I remember my date laughing at it and enjoying Peter's out of character, over the top boyish playfulness. To have a moment of laughter in such a gloomy movie (considering it's a comic) was quite nice.

Huh it took me awhile to remember who my date was.

You think that is boyish playfulness? Interesting Riva.

 

[Riva]

You think that is boyish playfulness? Interesting Riva.

I was mainly referring to the last part where he quickly turned and spread at the ladies behind him and pointed at them.

Well it's not easy to ascribe a definite set of words to define his actions but playing around is definitely one of them since his dancing was focused mainly around females. He was overdoing it but such playful confidence is/would most likely would be giggled at and discarded as boyish playfulness than be frowned upon, considered emo, mocked at or laughed at.

If you watch the facial expressions of the females they vary quite a lot. Most of them are giggling at him, some of them are smiling with him and a few are frowning at him. So I wouldn't let it be discarded as an inaccurate portrayal of female reactions nor would I discard it as an disconcerting emo-dance.

 

[Poindexter Arachnid]

It's really THAT bad?

I still can't get this horror out of my mind to this day:

I meant it in terms of it derailing the movie by being disjointing.
Iron Man 3 isn't awful, just kind of lame.

Funny thing: I watched Spider-Man 3 not too long ago and surprisingly it has aged very well.
When I first saw SP3, I didn't like it at all. I was so disappointed that I wanted to punch someone.

I liked it and I remember my date laughing at it and enjoying Peter's out of character, over the top boyish playfulness. To have a moment of laughter in such a gloomy movie (considering it's a comic) was quite nice.

Huh it took me awhile to remember who my date was.

I went with a group of friends and we were all taken aback by the sequence.
The entire theater was filled with uncomfortable laughter by the audience.

It was humorous but completely out of place.

 

[Cellmold]

I meant it in terms of it derailing the movie by being disjointing.
Iron Man 3 isn't awful, just kind of lame.

Oh I got your point. I wasn't trying to stretch that into your opinion of the entire film, just that particular area.

 

[The Great One]

The filmmakers were making an effort to be "subversive."
They failed miserably.

As for the racist origins of the Mandarin: The meta-deconstruction managed to work to some extent, but sacrificed the immediacy of the Extremis threat by doing so. Like the disconcerting emo-dancing Peter Parker sequences in Spider-Man 3, the movie never managed to pick itself back up again.

I've been reading reviews online and the Mandarin seems to be the biggest complaint about the movie, so I guess that I'm far from being alone on my opinion here.